IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[they'll get you]

Here is a good view of the railing in relation to the window frame. I wonder if a camera behind the bar might have captured this view. IMO, SA would have been in a very uncomfortable position if Chloe had her feet on the window frame.

He's behind the railing and it comes up to at least his waist level, probably higher. Consider what that railing felt like pressing on his belly.

https://content.invisioncic.com/j28...D5.jpeg.7afdc327d73a8a6c8df3c62087bd9f1c.jpeg

If I imagine Chloe’s feet on the sill and her butt leaning back on the rail with an 8” gap I’d suspect she would likely fall back between the rail and the window sill.

There’s more chance of her falling out if she was sitting/standing on the window sill.
It’s possible her knees buckled if she was standing and she fell forward.
She hadn’t been walking long and she wouldn’t have been that strong and steady.

Either way he’s a fool.
imo.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

Just something to think about...

The average height of an 18 month old girl is 31.8. If sitting down, probably the child’s upper body sitting would be half that maybe a few more inches so average would be 15.9 to 17.9 inches. So if CW was sitting on the railing and fell, would she have fallen through the open window since the measurement from railing to edge of window is 18 inches? Or would she have fallen down between the railing and window sill hitting her head on the window sill?

In my opinion, at that height, if she were sitting on the railing, she would have fallen in between the railing and the window and hit her head on the window ledge. She would have not fallen out the window, even if she was leaning forward. And if she did, she would have fallen head first not forward as she did. In my opinion, she was not sitting on the railing when she fell. She had to be standing at least on the ledge leaning forward to fall out the window as she did.

Also, keep in mind, CW was a premature baby, weighing just 4 pounds 6 ounces at birth so she may not have even been the average 31.8 inches tall. She may have been smaller.

JMO

 

[Lawsmygame2]

Double post.

 

[they'll get you]

Just something to think about...

The average height of an 18 month old girl is 31.8. If sitting down, probably the child’s upper body sitting would be half that maybe a few more inches so average would be 15.9 to 17.9 inches. So if CW was sitting on the railing and fell, would she have fallen through the open window since the measurement from railing to edge of window is 18 inches? Or would she have fallen down between the railing and window sill hitting her head on the window sill?

In my opinion, at that height, if she were sitting on the railing, she would have fallen in between the railing and the window and hit her head on the window ledge. She would have not fallen out the window, even if she was leaning forward. And if she did, she would have fallen head first not forward as she did. In my opinion, she was not sitting on the railing when she fell. She had to be standing at least on the ledge leaning forward to fall out the window as she did.

Also, keep in mind, CW was a premature baby, weighing just 4 pounds 6 ounces at birth so she may not have even been the average 31.8 inches tall. She may have been smaller.

JMO

You explained it better than me. Thank you.

 

[BrownRice]

View attachment 224243
If I imagine Chloe’s feet on the sill and her butt leaning back on the rail with an 8” gap I’d suspect she would likely fall back between the rail and the window sill.

There’s more chance of her falling out if she was sitting/standing on the window sill.
It’s possible her knees buckled if she was standing and she fell forward.
She hadn’t been walking long and she wouldn’t have been that strong and steady.

Either way he’s a fool.
imo.

This picture makes me shake my head. I can envision him standing her on the rail and letting her go as a game and then grabbing her quickly. Letting her go and grabbing her quickly again as the child squealed in delight at the fun game. Until he tried to grab her again and she moved and he lost the ability to grab her.

Also, I can’t believe the child let out a bloodcurdling scream. I don’t think an 18 mo has the ability to foresee such danger and fear. She doesn’t know what’s about to happen.

In my wildest dreams, I can’t imagine placing a child up there. But let’s say I had a lapse in judgement, I’d be holding her tightly and snug against my chest. No way with one arm like it appears when he throws her up there.

 

[they'll get you]

This picture makes me shake my head. I can envision him standing her on the rail and letting her go as a game and then grabbing her quickly. Letting her go and grabbing her quickly again as the child squealed in delight at the fun game. Until he tried to grab her again and she moved and he lost the ability to grab her.

Also, I can’t believe the child let out a bloodcurdling scream. I don’t think an 18 mo has the ability to foresee such danger and fear. She doesn’t know what’s about to happen.

In my wildest dreams, I can’t imagine placing a child up there. But let’s say I had a lapse in judgement, I’d be holding her tightly and snug against my chest. No way with one arm like it appears when he throws her up there.

When I was on the Voyager before Christmas, because of Chloe I was studying parents with their children and ALL of them held their children up on their hips if they were around ANY railings or they would be crouching down at the child’s level but still holding them. There’s railings everywhere.
I did not see one little child running away from a parent, even that short distance, like Chloe was allowed to do.

 

[mickey2942]

INMO, any "normal" person who had done something this horrific, by accident, would have immediately had so much remorse, and felt personal responsibility, that the minute he was charged, SA would have stepped up, acknowledged the fatal incident, and negotiated an immediate plea agreement.

To get this incident behind him, and the family, so they could move on. Now, he is involved in a trial, with court dates, scheduled in Puerto Rico. That means coordinating flights, hotels, meals, time from work....honestly, I can't figure out why SA hasn't done this....except, he is delusional and still thinks that he did nothing wrong. And RCCL needs to pay up, for having dangerous open windows on a ship.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

INMO, any "normal" person who had done something this horrific, by accident, would have immediately had so much remorse, and felt personal responsibility, that the minute he was charged, SA would have stepped up, acknowledged the fatal incident, and negotiated an immediate plea agreement.

To get this incident behind him, and the family, so they could move on. Now, he is involved in a trial, with court dates, scheduled in Puerto Rico. That means coordinating flights, hotels, meals, time from work....honestly, I can't figure out why SA hasn't done this....except, he is delusional and still thinks that he did nothing wrong. And RCCL needs to pay up, for having dangerous open windows on a ship.

BBM And guess who pays for all that. That's right, the funding websites. For some odd reason, the general public is expected to pick up the tab for this man's "mistake".
Gimme gimme gimme. Makes me sick! MOO

 

[IceIce9]

When I was on the Voyager before Christmas, because of Chloe I was studying parents with their children and ALL of them held their children up on their hips if they were around ANY railings or they would be crouching down at the child’s level but still holding them. There’s railings everywhere.
I did not see one little child running away from a parent, even that short distance, like Chloe was allowed to do.

He was not a good choice to watch Chloe, IMO. In the video he isn’t holding her hand, and allows her to get too far away from him. A hazard for her in an area where she could have been stepped on or run into, and a trip hazard for an adult who might be carrying a drink or two.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

He was not a good choice to watch Chloe, IMO. In the video he isn’t holding her hand, and allows her to get too far away from him. A hazard for her in an area where she could have been stepped on or run into, and a trip hazard for an adult who might be carrying a drink or two.

In one of the videos, Chloe can be seen quickly toddling from the H2O Zone into the Squeeze bar area. She seemed to forge ahead of Grandpa who could barely keep up. I wonder if Chloe frequently ran ahead of others without restraint? Chloe wouldn't have been the first little one to enjoy the "catch me" game, nor will she be the last. Maybe Chloe did this when she was with Grandpa, and it was a cute game until SA became exasperated at having to chase Chloe around, especially when he was overweight, hot, and sweaty on the open deck of a cruise ship.

 

[Forever Young]

Just something to think about...

The average height of an 18 month old girl is 31.8. If sitting down, probably the child’s upper body sitting would be half that maybe a few more inches so average would be 15.9 to 17.9 inches. So if CW was sitting on the railing and fell, would she have fallen through the open window since the measurement from railing to edge of window is 18 inches? Or would she have fallen down between the railing and window sill hitting her head on the window sill?

In my opinion, at that height, if she were sitting on the railing, she would have fallen in between the railing and the window and hit her head on the window ledge. She would have not fallen out the window, even if she was leaning forward. And if she did, she would have fallen head first not forward as she did. In my opinion, she was not sitting on the railing when she fell. She had to be standing at least on the ledge leaning forward to fall out the window as she did.

Also, keep in mind, CW was a premature baby, weighing just 4 pounds 6 ounces at birth so she may not have even been the average 31.8 inches tall. She may have been smaller.

JMO

IMO, she was smaller than average. If she was 2 months premature, developmentally she would be considered to be 16 months old, below the waist being the smaller half of her body.

Your scenario seems to assume she was sitting still on the railing and would fall straight down. In my scenario, she was being actively pushed forward by SA from the back. MOO

 

[Forever Young]

When I was on the Voyager before Christmas, because of Chloe I was studying parents with their children and ALL of them held their children up on their hips if they were around ANY railings or they would be crouching down at the child’s level but still holding them. There’s railings everywhere.
I did not see one little child running away from a parent, even that short distance, like Chloe was allowed to do.

I packed my children on my hip until they were 4 years old, all 3 of them. I have a picture of me and my 4 year old son at the zoo in Omaha, me carrying him on my left hip. He is 42 now.

I wanted them within my line of sight at all times, especially in parking lots and busy, public places like zoos.

 

[al66pine]

Did SA Become Exasperated?
@BetteDavisEyes sbm bbm "Hot and sweaty." Good point. Makes me wonder.
- What do other surv cam vids show, preceding the released vids?
- Was she running him ragged in the H20 Zone?
- Did they go other places, outside H20 Zone?
- Did any ear-witnesses hear what SA said ---
------ in H20 Zone?
----- at the column as he leaned over, before he squatted, or
----- at the window?
- By the time they were at the windows, did he lose his temper ?

In one of the videos, Chloe can be seen quickly toddling from the H2O Zone into the Squeeze bar area. She seemed to forge ahead of Grandpa who could barely keep up. I wonder if Chloe frequently ran ahead of others without restraint?.... Maybe.... SA became exasperated at having to chase Chloe around, especially when he was overweight, hot, and sweaty on the open deck of a cruise ship.

 

[Forever Young]

INMO, any "normal" person who had done something this horrific, by accident, would have immediately had so much remorse, and felt personal responsibility, that the minute he was charged, SA would have stepped up, acknowledged the fatal incident, and negotiated an immediate plea agreement.

To get this incident behind him, and the family, so they could move on. Now, he is involved in a trial, with court dates, scheduled in Puerto Rico. That means coordinating flights, hotels, meals, time from work....honestly, I can't figure out why SA hasn't done this....except, he is delusional and still thinks that he did nothing wrong. And RCCL needs to pay up, for having dangerous open windows on a ship.

Oh. I don't think he's under any delusion about what happened and his role in it.

To be fair, no one should automatically admit fault immediately after an accident, while you are still in shock and don't know all the extenuating circumstances.

IMO, somehow I have gotten the impression that immediately after this happened, when SA had to offer some explanation for why Chloe was suddenly dead, he didn't go into detail.

He said she fell from a window, and he didn't quite go in to the fact that she was on top of a safety railing, or how she got on top of that railing. So they got the impression that it was the window's fault and immediately contacted an attorney.

LE was able to get to the bottom of it quickly, very simply stating the fact that SA was holding Chloe on the safety railing and she slipped from his grasp.

Then, to make himself feel better, and support the parents' displaced anger and quest to sue the cruise company, he had to go along with the story that the window was the real culprit. Because SA would "never ever, ever" place any of their children in danger. JMO

 

[Chikkamma]

INMO, any "normal" person who had done something this horrific, by accident, would have immediately had so much remorse, and felt personal responsibility, that the minute he was charged, SA would have stepped up, acknowledged the fatal incident, and negotiated an immediate plea agreement.

To get this incident behind him, and the family, so they could move on. Now, he is involved in a trial, with court dates, scheduled in Puerto Rico. That means coordinating flights, hotels, meals, time from work....honestly, I can't figure out why SA hasn't done this....except, he is delusional and still thinks that he did nothing wrong. And RCCL needs to pay up, for having dangerous open windows on a ship.

Bbm. One explanation is that SA has a tremendous debt to the parents now for killing their child and is doing whatever they want him to do to make amends (even if that means rejecting a plea deal, and risking his freedom, so the parents have a better chance of extorting the cruiseline for money).

 

[Forever Young]

Oh. I don't think he's under any delusion about what happened and his role in it.

To be fair, no one should automatically admit fault immediately after an accident, while you are still in shock and don't know all the extenuating circumstances.

IMO, somehow I have gotten the impression that immediately after this happened, when SA had to offer some explanation for why Chloe was suddenly dead, he didn't go into detail.

He said she fell from a window, and he didn't quite go in to the fact that she was on top of a safety railing, or how she got on top of that railing. So they got the impression that it was the window's fault and immediately contacted an attorney.

LE was able to get to the bottom of it quickly, very simply stating the fact that SA was holding Chloe on the safety railing and she slipped from his grasp.

Then, to make himself feel better, and support the parents' displaced anger and quest to sue the cruise company, he had to go along with the story that the window was the real culprit. Because SA would "never ever, ever" place any of their children in danger. JMO

JMO, too, I think that the police officer father knows this, but is going along with the mother, because this is part of her "process", working through the grief, until she is able to accept the fact that SA did indeed place her child in danger.

 

[al66pine]

Funding Websites & SA's Expenses?
@SaguaroSpirit Personally, I see it differently. Better that SA (fam, friends, whoever) open a gimmee-fundraiser so $$$ comes from ppl giving voluntarily.
Not actually the "general public" imo paying w fed, state, or local tax $ for his flights, hotels, meals, etc.
{{ETA: ^ if he does not have $ to pay for himself.}}

Refraining from commenting about other fundraising efforts by fam.

BBM And guess who pays for all that. That's right, the funding websites. For some odd reason, the general public is expected to pick up the tab for this man's "mistake".
Gimme gimme gimme. Makes me sick! MOO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...Then, to make himself feel better, and support the parents' displaced anger and quest to sue the cruise company, he had to go along with the story that the window was the real culprit. Because SA would "never ever, ever" place any of their children in danger. JMO

<respectfully snipped> The video of Chloe running so far ahead of Grandpa (possibly 10-12 feet) put the toddler in danger long before she was lifted up to the window. She should not have been allowed to scamper away from SA and enter an adult bar area. No other children appear to be in Squeeze because most adults know that children should not be in a bar. There have been several posts here about the dangers posed to Chloe by being in the bar, and Grandpa didn't seem the least bit concerned that Chloe wandered over there from the children's water play area.

 

[Forever Young]

<respectfully snipped> The video of Chloe running so far ahead of Grandpa (possibly 10-12 feet) put the toddler in danger long before she was lifted up to the window. She should not have been allowed to scamper away from SA and enter an adult bar area. No other children appear to be in Squeeze because most adults know that children should not be in a bar. There have been several posts here about the dangers posed to Chloe by being in the bar, and Grandpa didn't seem the least bit concerned that Chloe wandered over there from the children's water play area.

IMO, I have thought that SA had already suggested that he and Chloe go check out the window, because he stops her at the pillar. They wait for the other man to take a picture. My impression that the first man is taking a picture through the open window, or a selfie. So, could that have been the original mission, to take a selfie of himself and Chloe?

I agree, SA is looking fatigued, having not had time to adjust to the heat and humidity that was so different from what he was used to - i. e. blowing cold air conditioning. They were heading toward the shade and the breeze coming through the window.

MOO, I have always thought that it was his idea to go there, and that she was not just running from him.

 

[KR72]

I packed my children on my hip until they were 4 years old, all 3 of them. I have a picture of me and my 4 year old son at the zoo in Omaha, me carrying him on my left hip. He is 42 now.

I wanted them within my line of sight at all times, especially in parking lots and busy, public places like zoos.

Yes, but in those days, few people allowed their children to run around freely aside from places like parks, playgrounds, etc...It's a plague now, I guess because parents think that everyone thinks their kids are adorable and don't see the problem with them disturbing other people. I dropped dishes three times to the floor because a little kid zoomed right towards me or right into me. One girl I worked with was carrying several plates on her forearm and dropped all of them when a toddler ran out of nowhere right in front of her. The worst part was that we had a boss who made us pay for the losses out of our tips. I suspect that was illegal, but you don't know any better when you're a young university student.