IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[Kindred]

If there was a decal or warning on the window, he wouldn’t have seen it because the window wasn’t there! It was open! So even if there was a warning on the actual window, the opening wouldn’t have a warning. You can’t put a warning on air/open space.

Snipped and BBM

 

[wackyw]

Exactly. She could walk right under the railing and up to the glass to bang on it if she wanted to. If that was the “reason” for picking her up, it is clearly false.

Also, from the first PDF: (1)the window did not have a “single, adequate indication” (such as a decal or a warning) to indicate it was open;

If there was a decal or warning on the window, he wouldn’t have seen it because the window wasn’t there! It was open! So even if there was a warning on the actual window, the opening wouldn’t have a warning. You can’t put a warning on air/open space.

Perhaps when you open a window an large opaque screen should come down to cover the "hidden hole" ( MWs words in "") with a big warning

 

[neesaki]

I've puzzled over this, too. Why didn't he move into the shade? Instead went into the squat. Someone else on here mentioned children doing that was indicative of a heart problem. When he does get to the railing, my interpretation, he almost flops onto it, and allows the railing to support him.

I do realize we all interpret everything differently. So that said, from what I see, he’s not flopping out, more like plunging out, as though he wants to just get there with no waste of time. And as though he had a plan.

Maybe it was only because he was super enebriated and realized he needed some fresh air. Or was there another reason? If so, what might that be? Ah, Who knows. Just thoughts and all MOO.

 

[justice4allnow]

In document 2 page 4 of his motion to dismiss, Mr Winkleman shows a photo of Sam holding Chloe up to the hockey rink glass. In the photo he holds her with his hands around her waist and only her upper body is above the railing. If he had lost his grip and even if no rink glass had been there, the child would have fallen to the floor by his feet in the audience section of the rink. She is not being held in the same position nor place when on board the FOTS, so I do not understand the comparison.

 

[MsBetsy]

Oh my---so now this was an optical illusion? SMDH

No, that post was in response to my post about not knowing what SM was thinking when he was squatting against the pole and whether he was planning in advance to murder his granddaughter.
I had made the point that we can't know what he was thinking before he went to the window.
I don't think anyone is disputing his actions and the fact that he was irresponsible and careless in lifting her over the railing and dropping her.
I'm pretty sure noone disputes that.

It's just that we can't really speculate what his thoughts were because it's impossible to read someone's mind.

Imo

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Wow. Yeah, that's pretty darn quick.
I'm not sure how they would have come up with any evidence of the ship's negligence in that amount of time, especially if they are claiming they did not meet the standard safety requirements.

Imo

Failure to meet standard safety requirements is the catch all for premises liability cases. Just fill in with

Security
Fence
Door
Floor
Window
Tub
Kitchen
Restaurant
Food
Furniture
.........
You can usually find fault with anything if you look hard enough, or have time to make something up.

 

[neesaki]

OMG you people have been chatty. Good. Because I have presents for you clever little sleuthers.

DOCUMENTS INCOMING!

LOTS OF DOCUMENTS.

OVER 100 pages... of... documents.

... Winkleman is going to make me open a go fund myself to cover all the PACER fees if this doesn't get dismissed isn't he?

ANYWAYS - DOCUMENTS!! Goodies coming in this file dump:

Winklemans ship inspection, which gives more photos, graphs and charts and measurements!! (I know some of you are going to be excited for that one)

Pictures of Chloe

And one I find very interesting, an affidavit from the ships doctor about the incident. It's heartbreaking because he comments about Chloes body, being the first to go examine her, but he also offers an interesting bit of info about SA.

I haven't read everything yet but I'll get it all uploaded and posted

I really appreciate you providing the documents. If you need donations I’ll be happy to help, Kindred. Thank you!

 

[they'll get you]

I wish I had taken a photo of me leaning out that freakin’ window!!

Dammit!
I took every other kind of which-way photo.

 

[justice4allnow]

I love this in RCCL's response to the request for all camera footage:
"Plaintiffs’ counsel apparently took issue with the fact that RCL needed to investigate their request to determine what footage existed. The first step of that investigation was to identify the cameras in question, which was not readily apparent from the photographs that Plaintiffs’ counsel provided undersigned. [ECF No. 14-2]. In fact, RCL subsequently discovered that two of the items that Plaintiffs represented to be cameras were actually audio speakers. RCL is in the process of gathering the footage that Plantiffs requested, which is not a task that can be finalized instantaneously. As noted above, none of the additional footage Plaintiffs seek captured the incident and/or the subject window area."

 

[Kindred]

In document 2 page 4 of his motion to dismiss, Mr Winkleman shows a photo of Sam holding Chloe up to the hockey rink glass. In the photo he holds her with his hands around her waist and only her upper body is above the railing. If he had lost his grip and even if no rink glass had been there, the child would have fallen to the floor by his feet in the audience section of the rink. She is not being held in the same position nor place when on board the FOTS, so I do not understand the comparison.

To me it looks like she's sitting on his knee. Those seats where they are look very close to the glass (the next ones where the rink curves not so much) and with her perched on the end of his knee she's still not in a very stable position leaning forward, but as you said, he has her around her middle so she shouldn't fall there. But even still, as you said, she's not standing on a rail in any way comparable to the way he put her on the window ledge

 

[MsBetsy]

Im wondering if during interrogation,the the cops were telling the parents its grandpas fault according to cctv, and they worried he would be charged with manslaughter so they quickly hired a lawyer who told them it was the cruise line fault they agreed t0 this charade in order to save grandpa and make a big payday.

Well, I considered that myself. I thought maybe the motivation behind the lawsuit was to protect grandpa and keep him out of prison, with the hope there would be some compensation.
Unless they know something we don't and there really is valid reason. If so then we haven't heard it yet.

Imo

 

[neesaki]

I just rolled my eyes so hard I can see the back of my skull. I didn't think this case could get any more outrageously ridiculous.

Exactly... And, Ridiculous... the guy wasn’t even bending over to speak of. As we all noticed before, this so called re creation of the event is completely inaccurate and misleading.

SA bent over at close to if not a 90 degree angle and looked down. Their guy was like a mannequin, like he couldn’t move or bend down. Quite laughable, actually.. and a farce. This whole thing makes me sick.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I do realize we all interpret everything differently. So that said, from what I see, he’s not flopping out, more like plunging out, as though he wants to just get there with no waste of time. And as though he had a plan.

Maybe it was only because he was super enebriated and realized he needed some fresh air. Or was there another reason? If so, what might that be? Ah, Who knows. Just thoughts and all MOO.

Maybe he had a sick feeling in his throat and thought he would vomit. Who knows????? ETA: WHO CARES????!?
The point is he puts her out there. And she’s dead. So if he was drunk, overheated, tired, angry, hungry, thirsty it does not matter what was in his mind. His mind controlled his actions. His actions set off the chain of events that DIRECTLY lead to her death. His actions were: he leaned out, then back in, then picks her up, sticks her outside. Whether he dropped her, let her wriggle out of his grip or lost his balance, let her go, got winded, lost consciousness, got color blinded from the sun, couldn’t feel his finger tips to feel the glass, bc he has polyneuropathy, whatever actions he took, he was the only actor there. But for him, none of this would have happened. BUT FOR. Legal language pinning it on SA.

 

[BeachSky]

I love this in RCCL's response to the request for all camera footage:
"Plaintiffs’ counsel apparently took issue with the fact that RCL needed to investigate their request to determine what footage existed. The first step of that investigation was to identify the cameras in question, which was not readily apparent from the photographs that Plaintiffs’ counsel provided undersigned. [ECF No. 14-2]. In fact, RCL subsequently discovered that two of the items that Plaintiffs represented to be cameras were actually audio speakers. RCL is in the process of gathering the footage that Plantiffs requested, which is not a task that can be finalized instantaneously. As noted above, none of the additional footage Plaintiffs seek captured the incident and/or the subject window area."

Great finds!

two of the items that Plaintiffs represented to be cameras were actually audio speakers.
Lolol....
none of the additional footage Plaintiffs seek captured the incident and/or the subject window
Maybe Winkleman's method of operation is wearing down a crui$e line.
I’d say they are going toe to toe with his dance. Good on them!
MOO

 

[In vino veritas]

MW uses some very strong, inflammatory wording in those documents. RCCL has been very discreet during the past 6 months. Only after the lawsuit was filed by the Wiegand did RCCL respond, as they are compelled to do.
I believe RCCL is going to alter their stance going forward, and this whole case is going to get uglier than it already is.
I am not in the legal field, but MW seems to me to be really pushing the envelope regarding legality and morality.

 

[MsBetsy]

Failure to meet standard safety requirements is the catch all for premises liability cases. Just fill in with

Security
Fence
Door
Floor
Window
Tub
Kitchen
Restaurant
Food
Furniture
.........
You can usually find fault with anything if you look hard enough, or have time to make something up.

Yes, but doesn't it have to be a valid complaint? As long as the ship was up to code wouldn't it be hard to prove?
I don't know how it works with ships but I would think they would have inspections and documentation of any violations, especially safety violations specific to the windows. Idk.

 

[neesaki]

So they are going SA defamation as well. RCC must now remove their gloves.
And those photos are a crock!!

"All in all, Royal Caribbean has filed with this court inaccurate and deceptive CCTV video and a demonstrably false narrative in order to further Royal Caribbean’s interests, rather than the truth; while at the same time defaming Mr. Anello and irresponsibly causing further irreparable harm to the Plaintiffs, a family in severe distress," wrote Michael Winkleman, an attorney representing the Wiegand family in the civil case

Pathetic and infuriating at the same time, isn’t it.

 

[justice4allnow]

To me it looks like she's sitting on his knee. Those seats where they are look very close to the glass (the next ones where the rink curves not so much) and with her perched on the end of his knee she's still not in a very stable position leaning forward, but as you said, he has her around her middle so she shouldn't fall there. But even still, as you said, she's not standing on a rail in any way comparable to the way he put her on the window ledge

Agree,d and in the second photo she appears to be standing on the floor. I'm unsure what these photos are intended to prove.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Many thanks, Kindred, for posting the document links. I started with the doctor report and did not find it disturbing because I already have a good idea of the types of injuries Chloe sustained when she fell 11 stories to the concrete deck below. It had to be an absolutely horrific sight for anyone on the ground who might have witnessed the incident

 

[they'll get you]

Failure to meet standard safety requirements is the catch all for premises liability cases. Just fill in with

Security
Fence
Door
Floor
Window
Tub
Kitchen
Restaurant
Food
Furniture
.........
You can usually find fault with anything if you look hard enough, or have time to make something up.

Imo an accident has happened and RCC will have some blame......SA had the ability to drop Chloe out.

He’d have the ability to drop Chloe over any one of the other railings onboard as well but that’s not the point.
Unfortunately.