IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[Kindred]

I really appreciate you providing the documents. If you need donations I’ll be happy to help, Kindred. Thank you!

Really, everyone thanking me for the doc dumps you're all very welcome. I'm happy to keep posting them. This was a big file but I feel it's definitely worth it to get all this info that we sadly can't access yet from the criminal case. And PACER waves fees up to $30 so we're golden for now

 

[IceIce9]

Exactly... And, Ridiculous... the guy wasn’t even bending over to speak of. As we all noticed before, this so called re creation of the event is completely inaccurate and misleading.

SA bent over at close to if not a 90 degree angle and looked down. Their guy was like a mannequin, like he couldn’t move or bend down. Quite laughable, actually.. and a farce. This whole thing makes me sick.

And they need to use a tiny doll the same size, height, and weight as Chloe. That would provide the same affect as seeing Chloe being held up high and being thrown out the window.

 

[Kindred]

Many thanks, Kindred, for posting the document links. I started with the doctor report and did not find it disturbing because I already have a good idea of the types of injuries Chloe sustained when she fell 11 stories to the concrete deck below. It had to be an absolutely horrific sight for anyone on the ground who might have witnessed the incident

Yeah it's kind of expected but still some people don't have the heart or stomach to actually even just read those words, especially about a toddler. Better to warn them upfront then upset someone

 

[Midwestmom2019]

This is why I seriously doubt that any of this will come up at trial. It is impossible to know what someone else was thinking or seeing - if you've ever had the experience of just looking at something the wrong way.

Types of Optical Illusions - Optical Illusions

Maybe SA was so drunk he saw double. An optical illusion of two railings, two windows? Two babies?
We don’t know what he was thinking or seeing but we do know how he was acting. That’s the only thing the rest of us care about.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Many thanks, Kindred, for posting the document links. I started with the doctor report and did not find it disturbing because I already have a good idea of the types of injuries Chloe sustained when she fell 11 stories to the concrete deck below. It had to be an absolutely horrific sight for anyone on the ground who might have witnessed the incident

Apparently a woman next to him looked out at the scene and turned back in horror.

 

[IceIce9]

Alright!! I'm going to do this big one first, because I think this is what most people are going to want to see. This is, honest to god, only TWO THINGS filed by the plaintiffs. But the second one is so overwhelmingly huge that it is broken down into FOUR SEPERATE DOCUMENTS in the filing. I'm sticking them all up on DOCDROID just because I have a feeling we're going to be doing a lot of referring back to different things.

WARNING I HAVE NOT FULLY READ ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS BEFORE POSTING. I say this because the one document that Winkleman included, the statement from the ship's doctor, includes a description of what he witnessed of Chloe's body, including massive head trauma. It is brief, but it is there, and I know several people have posted previously that they don't want to see anything dealing with her injuries/fall. So if you don't want to read about that please skip the last document. I don't know if Winkleman discusses it anywhere else in the oposition so just be warned you may want to wait and see what others say.

-------------------

PLAINTIFFS’UNOPPOSEDMOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE PRELIMINARYRESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION [D.E. 7]IN EXCESS OF PAGE LIMITATIONS

Wiegand vs RCCL CASE NO. 19-CV-25100-DLG
Filed 01/22/20

wiegand motion to file excess pages.pdf

summary: Winkleman asks nicely to file a massive amount of pages

----------------

Enter the massive amount of pages (somewhere around 130 in total)

PLAINTIFFS’PRELIMINARY1RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION[D.E. 7]

Wiegand vs RCCL CASE NO. 19-CV-25100-DLG
Filed 01/22/20

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 1.pdf
This is the actual argument. Winkleman puts all civility aside in it and flat out accuses RCCL of lying to the court. Get your popcorn because this is salty.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 2.pdf
Two photos of little Chloe at the ice rink. One in SA's lap leaning close to the glass, one of her again just standing at the glass in another area.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 3.pdf
This is what we've been waiting for! The ships inspection! All 101 pages of it

----------------

This one I'm moving separately because it's the doctor's declaration. This one is the one to skip if you don't want to hear about poor little Chloe's state after the fall. But I will say that it has the most interesting contradiction to anything Winkleman ever said about the incident. Per the ship's doctor: SA WAS NEVER SEDATED BY HIM OR HIS STAFF AFTER THE INCIDENT. Only KW and grandmother "Mary" were sedated.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

Alright!! I'm going to do this big one first, because I think this is what most people are going to want to see. This is, honest to god, only TWO THINGS filed by the plaintiffs. But the second one is so overwhelmingly huge that it is broken down into FOUR SEPERATE DOCUMENTS in the filing. I'm sticking them all up on DOCDROID just because I have a feeling we're going to be doing a lot of referring back to different things.

WARNING I HAVE NOT FULLY READ ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS BEFORE POSTING. I say this because the one document that Winkleman included, the statement from the ship's doctor, includes a description of what he witnessed of Chloe's body, including massive head trauma. It is brief, but it is there, and I know several people have posted previously that they don't want to see anything dealing with her injuries/fall. So if you don't want to read about that please skip the last document. I don't know if Winkleman discusses it anywhere else in the oposition so just be warned you may want to wait and see what others say.

-------------------

PLAINTIFFS’UNOPPOSEDMOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE PRELIMINARYRESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION [D.E. 7]IN EXCESS OF PAGE LIMITATIONS

Wiegand vs RCCL CASE NO. 19-CV-25100-DLG
Filed 01/22/20

wiegand motion to file excess pages.pdf

summary: Winkleman asks nicely to file a massive amount of pages

----------------

Enter the massive amount of pages (somewhere around 130 in total)

PLAINTIFFS’PRELIMINARY1RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION[D.E. 7]

Wiegand vs RCCL CASE NO. 19-CV-25100-DLG
Filed 01/22/20

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 1.pdf
This is the actual argument. Winkleman puts all civility aside in it and flat out accuses RCCL of lying to the court. Get your popcorn because this is salty.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 2.pdf
Two photos of little Chloe at the ice rink. One in SA's lap leaning close to the glass, one of her again just standing at the glass in another area.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 3.pdf
This is what we've been waiting for! The ships inspection! All 101 pages of it

----------------

This one I'm moving separately because it's the doctor's declaration. This one is the one to skip if you don't want to hear about poor little Chloe's state after the fall. But I will say that it has the most interesting contradiction to anything Winkleman ever said about the incident. Per the ship's doctor: SA WAS NEVER SEDATED BY HIM OR HIS STAFF AFTER THE INCIDENT. Only KW and grandmother "Mary" were sedated.

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

Sam refused a sedative!! Very interesting, thank you for posting this.

 

[Wicked Strong]

Could Winkelman be running interference for SA's next court date? I believe it's on Jan 27th, just to set a trial date, but maybe he's trying to get the public back on SA's side? Although I read that PR interviewed many people on that day, and I imagine their testimony &/or pictures will either back up SA's claim or not. Maybe that is what he is trying to avoid, because he knows there are other photos and witnesses out there. I also don't think SA was drunk, I would think the doctor would have smelled the odor of alcohol about him when he talked to SA.
JMO

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Imo an accident has happened and RCC will have some blame......SA had the ability to drop Chloe out.

He’d have the ability to drop Chloe over any one of the other railings onboard as well but that’s not the point.
Unfortunately.

Actually, that is the point. RCCL cannot be blamed for an open window even if the latches weren’t working. Why? Bc the window latches didn’t “directly“ (proximately) cause the death of Chloe. They didn’t indirectly cause her death. SA was the sole source of her being held close by an open window. Or picked up. Or placed outside.

In other words, tell us what RCCL did wrong to share the blame.

 

[they'll get you]

Maybe SA was so drunk he saw double. An optical illusion of two railings, two windows? Two babies?
We don’t know what he was thinking or seeing but we do know how he was acting. That’s the only thing the rest of us care about.

Would the doctor have realised he was drunk?

 

[they'll get you]

Yeah it's kind of expected but still some people don't have the heart or stomach to actually even just read those words, especially about a toddler. Better to warn them upfront then upset someone

I saw a warning of what I was about to read.

 

[IceIce9]

Actually, that is the point. RCCL cannot be blamed for an open window even if the latches weren’t working. Why? Bc the window latches didn’t “directly“ (proximately) cause the death of Chloe. They didn’t indirectly cause her death. SA was the sole source of her being held close by an open window. Or picked up. Or placed outside.

In other words, tell us what RCCL did wrong to share the blame.

It would be like blaming Honda if someone threw a child in the street in front of a Civic.

 

[ARE]

Yes, and then they need to see what those windows would look like to a colorblind person - most commonly the inability to see "green".

Even If SA *is* colorblind, color is not the only clue that the window is open.

Based on the video, he leaned toward—if not out—of the window before placing Chloe on the rail/sill/wherever.

Those moments where he leaned forward should have been sufficient for him to gather other data about the status of the window... data other than the “green” he didn’t see.

furthermore, thinking about it... if you are color blind, green does not magically become clear, right? But brown? So there would theoretically still be a color difference there.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Would the doctor have realised he was drunk?

Did the dr. treat him? If he didn’t give him a sedative, would he need to be with SA? Probably on the deck with Chloe’s remains. He called for a cover for her.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Even If SA *is* colorblind, color is not the only clue that the window is open.

Based on the video, he leaned toward—if not out—of the window before placing Chloe on the rail/sill/wherever.

Those moments where he leaned forward should have been sufficient for him to gather other data about the status of the window... data other than the “green” he didn’t see.

furthermore, thinking about it... if you are color blind, green does not magically become clear, right? But brown? So there would theoretically still be a color difference there.

We’ve posted about this ad nauseam. IF he is color blind, it did not affect his vision.

 

[they'll get you]

Actually, that is the point. RCCL cannot be blamed for an open window even if the latches weren’t working. Why? Bc the window latches didn’t “directly“ (proximately) cause the death of Chloe. They didn’t indirectly cause her death. SA was the sole source of her being held close by an open window. Or picked up. Or placed outside.

In other words, tell us what RCCL did wrong to share the blame.

I was looking outside the rational box.
These court findings can be gobsmacking at times.

 

[Kindred]

Sam refused a sedative!! Very interesting, thank you for posting this.

Could Winkelman be running interference for SA's next court date? I believe it's on Jan 27th, just to set a trial date, but maybe he's trying to get the public back on SA's side? Although I read that PR interviewed many people on that day, and I imagine their testimony &/or pictures will either back up SA's claim or not. Maybe that is what he is trying to avoid, because he knows there are other photos and witnesses out there. I also don't think SA was drunk, I would think the doctor would have smelled the odor of alcohol about him when he talked to SA.
JMO

I had included the part about the refusal of the sedative because it had been claimed since early on that he was "so distraught he'd had to be sedated" as reasons that he didn't give an official statement to the police or comply with drug/alcohol testing. I think Winkleman may have pushed this narrative early on in the press tours but I can't remember where, but I know it was discussed multiple times.

But now that we know definitively he wasn't hysterical to the point they needed to sedate him, he was still rational enough to say no I don't want anything, it makes me wonder why not. Sedatives can react badly to some meds. So here's a thought, we're pretty sure they had just flown into PR earlier that same day though we still haven't gotten that 100% confirmed anywhere. What if SA had taken something like xanax or another similar type med to deal with flight anxiety or something like that earlier that he was still possibly under the influence of? Something that could have impaired him just enough to do something stupid like put his granddaughter out the window?

 

[Fidobell]

OMG you people have been chatty. Good. Because I have presents for you clever little sleuthers.

DOCUMENTS INCOMING!

LOTS OF DOCUMENTS.

OVER 100 pages... of... documents.

... Winkleman is going to make me open a go fund myself to cover all the PACER fees if this doesn't get dismissed isn't he?

ANYWAYS - DOCUMENTS!! Goodies coming in this file dump:

Winklemans ship inspection, which gives more photos, graphs and charts and measurements!! (I know some of you are going to be excited for that one)

Pictures of Chloe

And one I find very interesting, an affidavit from the ships doctor about the incident. It's heartbreaking because he comments about Chloes body, being the first to go examine her, but he also offers an interesting bit of info about SA.

I haven't read everything yet but I'll get it all uploaded and posted

Thanks in advance ,

 

[Midwestmom2019]

MW uses some very strong, inflammatory wording in those documents. RCCL has been very discreet during the past 6 months. Only after the lawsuit was filed by the Wiegand did RCCL respond, as they are compelled to do.
I believe RCCL is going to alter their stance going forward, and this whole case is going to get uglier than it already is.
I am not in the legal field, but MW seems to me to be really pushing the envelope regarding legality and morality.

Mentioned earlier this evening that this family may end up with an outcome totally opposite of where they’re pushing it. Sleeping giants are not to be messed with. Winkleman may have made millions. RCCL a little more than that, money wise. And can go toe to toe with MW. Easy. Out run him. Out spend him. Our maneuver him. Out think him. Out talk him. RCCL was incredibly courteous to the family very early and continued to take a position that other large corporations should emulate. Silence in the face of accusations. But if they want a fight, RCCL will give them one that will make headlines around the world.

 

[Kindred]

Did the dr. treat him? If he didn’t give him a sedative, would he need to be with SA? Probably on the deck with Chloe’s remains. He called for a cover for her.

Chloe was beyond his skills and abilities at that point

I think the family was with him because of their hysteria and because the sickbay was a good place to give the family some privacy away from the other guests but have them available. Crew members/investigators could come and go and people where on hand to look after them

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I was looking outside the rational box.
These court findings can be gobsmacking at times.

Please tell us what RCCL did wrong in this case.