IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[katydid23]

'Oh my god ... All I know is I was trying to reach the glass and I know that we leaned over to try to have her reach the glass, at that point she slipped."

What the heck does this^^^ mean? >>> " I know that we leaned over to try to have her reach the glass, at that point she slipped."

We leaned over? What does that mean exactly?

The Baby is being propped up, standing on the open window ledge. So what does that mean when he says " we leaned over to try to have her reach the glass, at that point she slipped."

WE leaned over? If she was standing on the tiny window ledge, and they both 'leaned over'...

Why the heck would he do that? He literally pushed her out of that open window, according to these words.

If he 'leaned over' , then he is shoving her forward. I'd call that manslaughter.

Video Suggests Cruise Ship Grandpa Knew Window Was Open

 

[molly esmeralda]

Wow. This has been a really captivating thread that has got me occupied and spending way too much of my days on. In the end, I'm not going to even try to guess what was going on in SA's mind. All I can conclude is he is solely responsible for poor Chloe's demise. The suit against RCCL is ridiculous and the reenactment so utterly laughable I can't even....

After reading what seems like hundreds of pages on this thread, we all try to make sense of what happened.....maybe it does not have to make sense, not for the normal person anyway. So I go back to the beginning.

I believe the first reports of him holding her out of the window sill in 'an act of games.' I came upon a video which was taken soon after the incident, a Puerto Rican TV reporter who described what a witness saw. Chloe being held in the arms of grandpa, swinging her back and forth unto the opening. That made sense to me, tying that action up with the side view video. Some of the sleuthers also mentioned the odd movements of SA just before he fell to the floor. That must be it. He looked to me like he was going forward and back, one, two, and after the third time he falls back.

That just rocked me. Could it be that he practically tossed or chucked her out? I don't think intentionally, he is just a reckless person and it finally caught up with him on this day. At this point, if I were grandpa I'd be hoping I was drunk or under the influence, at least I can say I wasn't in my right mind.

And that's when the horror really set in. And would explain why SA and family are in such denial. I can't wrap my head around it?!?!?

I also think RCCL has better videos which will be more damning. And witnesses.

I can't wait for this to be over. I imagine SA and the Wiegands are going through hell.

JMOO, IMOO, Etc........

 

[they'll get you]

If she straightened up, the railing would be directly against her stomach. If she stays straight, that wooden bar will press against her stomach area and be very uncomfortable, prompting her to back up. If she continues leaning forward with the bar against her stomach, her feet will leave the ground. IMO

No, no, no hon. It’s not uncomfortable or painful.

 

[Only4Justice]

The earliest reports out of Puerto Rico said that she was in the window frame. I've seen one report saying he lost his balance and she fell, and another report saying that she lost her balance and fell.

well that is BS and complete nonsense. 18-month old Children do not “lose their balance”

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

Here is the obit listing from the neighbor. It is on WeRemember by Erin Montie

Chloe Rae Margaret Wiegand (2017-2019)

 

[al66pine]

Scope of an ASTM Std? If Not Applicable, Can Judge Rule "It Applies, So Ship is Negligent"?

We do often need to interpret what standards and codes apply.... I do not design large multi family structures but often do work within individual units within them and operable windows, exterior doors and balcony railings are always an issue ...

@mheido67 bbm sbm Thanks so much for your response. Yes, you interpret codes & standards. You would read the Note issued w ASTM F2006-17* to see the Scope: (my paraphrasing) Window criteria for multi-family residential dwellings, w window installation >75 ft, etc.
And you would say to yourself, my work is single family free-standing residences, at ground level, so this ASTM std does not apply to the houses I design. Getting into the nitty gritty of that std about how far the windows can open or distance btwn window bars is something you don't deal w. Irrelevant to your work, because you do not design the types of bldgs that particular standard applies to.

Oversimplifying an example. Let's say ,a man held his 18 m/o step-gr-dau out window & dropped her at a house you designed. Toddler's parent sue you, contractors, and home owners for wrongful death. The trial judge rules that ^ASTM applied to that house, and because house's window design/ specification & construction was not ASTM F2006-17 compliant, then windows were dangerous, so architect and contractor, and owner were negligent, liable for visiting toddler's death, so kajillion $ judgment, etc.

The trial judge's ruling ^ is reversible error, because he applied a standard or law that was not applicable. And you & other def's would (want to) appeal. And (presumably) the appellate court would reverse.
For anyone (mheido67, not saying you) who anticipates a trial judge would rule that ASTM F2006-17 applies to RCL's Fr/Seas in this case, this may help explain why some here believe ^ extreeemely unlikely to happen.*

----------------------------------------------
* Complaint discussed "ASTM F2006 and F2090 standards," starting on page 8, paragraphs 23 -27. I located ASTM F2006-17, which is described above and per Notes issued w the std is not applicable to ships. It's possible a different ASTM std applies, but I did not locate any re ship windows. As to one other alleged basis of 'non-compliance' w "Industry Standards - Other Cruise Line's Vessels" at page 10, paragraphs 28-31, Complaint gives examples, but does not cite a written source.

 

[neesaki]

Agreed. The moment he flung, yes flung her, over that railing all bets were off. No reasonable person would do that. Not only did he fling her over the railing into the ledge, as so as she went into the window frame he pulls his right arm in so obviously he lifts her over the railing and then has her by one arm. He admitted to that. That’s beyond insane IMO. Did she hit the awning that was on the other side of the pier? If that is in fact true, which might not be, She didn’t just drop straight down. She went way out and then down. Just awful.

And if his actions involved more than losing his grip and dropping her, rather he threw her, or as you say flung her out.... then was surely no accident and required intent.

 

[justice4allnow]

e was going forward and back, one, two, and after the third time he falls back

Not saying that it was purposeful, but puts me in mind of a pitcher winding up for a throw ...one-two-three...

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Here is the obit listing from the neighbor. It is on WeRemember by Erin Montie

Chloe Rae Margaret Wiegand (2017-2019)

Such a sweet message, and worded JUST right. Perfect. So much info there.

 

[Andreee]

'Oh my god ... All I know is I was trying to reach the glass and I know that we leaned over to try to have her reach the glass, at that point she slipped."

What the heck does this^^^ mean? >>> " I know that we leaned over to try to have her reach the glass, at that point she slipped."

We leaned over? What does that mean exactly?

The Baby is being propped up, standing on the open window ledge. So what does that mean when he says " we leaned over to try to have her reach the glass, at that point she slipped."

WE leaned over? If she was standing on the tiny window ledge, and they both 'leaned over'...

Why the heck would he do that? He literally pushed her out of that open window, according to these words.

If he 'leaned over' , then he is shoving her forward. I'd call that manslaughter.

Video Suggests Cruise Ship Grandpa Knew Window Was Open

 

[Wehwalt]

I've been thinking about his potential drunkeness. One would think that if he was sober he would have submitted to a sobriety test, right?

So what I've been pondering is if his drunkeness led him to miss the fact that it was an open window, isn't he still responsible? In that case Chloe's death would be the direct result of him being her caretaker while drunk. There are plenty of example of people being found guilty of negligent homicide for driving while drunk, but would caregiving while drunk fall under the same kind of analysis?

I can't speak to the law in Puerto Rico but in general, you're still responsible for what you do while intoxicated, assuming you got yourself drunk. Especially negligence-style crimes where no intent to commit an act is required.

 

[Andreee]

I would like to see what that expert who does 'Statement Analysis' would think of SA's words. Using the term 'we' implies to me that SA is trying to share the blame with the toddler! Also, saying 'all I know' kind of implies a spread of blame with others as well IMO.

 

[Area52]

I don't recall seeing that. So does he climb up on a chair, since it's allegedly impossible to just look out the window?

It is possible to look out the window and extend your arms past the window ledge.
I am 5'4" and was on this ship in October. I was able to lean forward and look out and down. It is even easier for a 6 foot man!

 

[Andreee]

It is possible to look out the window and extend your arms past the window ledge.
I am 5'4" and was on this ship in October. I was able to lean forward and look out and down. It is even easier for a 6 foot man!

And you would've had no real stretch to lean your head right outside the window? I believe you answered me before on this, but just wanted to clarify and 'bump' up this interesting info.

 

[justice4allnow]

Here is the obit listing from the neighbor. It is on WeRemember by Erin Montie

Chloe Rae Margaret Wiegand (2017-2019)

Thank you for sharing it. I remembered it incorrectly, and agree that it is completely normal.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Thank you for sharing it. I remembered it incorrectly, and agree that it is completely normal.

But if you read between the lines just a little bit...

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

Thank you for sharing it. I remembered it incorrectly, and agree that it is completely normal.

It's possible when you were originally reading it you were in a different frame of mind.

Funny story - someone at work sent me an email that irritated me. I was irritated for months about it and when I was flying out to that office I wanted to make sure I was sufficiently cold to the person when I was there so I went and re-read the email and it was perfectly fine. I took it the wrong way in the moment.

 

[neesaki]

Not saying that it was purposeful, but puts me in mind of a pitcher winding up for a throw ...one-two-three...

Like he was swinging her, 1 and 2 and 3 and .......
O. M G. About the time I think it can’t get any worse.

 

[Cool Cats]

Family attorneys say cruise line's story of toddler's death is 'physically impossible'

JUSTIN L. MACK | INDIANAPOLIS STAR
Updated 12:10 p.m. EST Jan. 24, 2020

A Royal Caribbean cruise ship investigation was conducted on Jan. 10 by attorneys representing the family of Chloe Wiegand.
According to court documents, the ship inspection was a one-day investigation conducted by Winkleman and his team.

Using a man of Anello's height and stature to conduct a reenactment, Winkleman's team took measurements to see if the scenario could have played out the way Royal Caribbean claims.

Attorneys for the Wiegand family say it would have been physically impossible for Anello to lean his head out of the window, and then hold Chloe out of the window from his position.

"In order to even touch the subject window with the very top of his head, Plaintiffs’ counsel had to lift his feet at least seven inches off the ground," Winkleman writes.

Winkleman's filing says that during the ship inspection, it was determined that the inside edge of the handrail was 19 inches from the window opening.

"To have physically held Chloe out the window, Mr. Anello would have required much longer arms than he had," Winkleman writes. "Chloe only fell when Mr. Anello tragically leaned her forward to bang on what he believed was a fixed glass panel — as they had done many times before at Chloe’s brother’s hockey games."

 

[Wehwalt]

Between SA's inability to tell glass from air, and Chloe's love of banging, the window replacement guy must have been constantly at the Wiegand house.