IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[al66pine]

Reenactmt. Why the Not-to-Scale Bikini Barbie? To Distract & Distort?
Reviewing reenactmt doll pix, I noticed, not just inaccurate age, bust development, and clothing, but also how downright thin the doll was. Why this doll? Why the thin, not-toddler- proportioned body?
----- To distract viewers, so they focus on ^ inaccuracies, not the danger SA caused.

----- To distort viewers' perceptions of spacial relationships. For ex: if viewers imagined doll falling into the ‘slot’ or space btwn guard rail & ship's outer 'wall, it/she would have just slipped btwn rail & wall, and fallen to floor. Oops, maybe a skinned knee & a bruised elbow, nothing like injuries after Chloe’s 100+ ft fall, This 'slot' looks imo like < 10’’ inches (based on marks at 3 1/2" and at 1 ft-1" on measuring tape in pic that @they'll get you posted, several posts up thread). Could Chloe have fallen randomly/willy-nilly thru that < 10” slot, without human guidance? Imo doubtful that in SA’s grasp or from standing or sitting on rail or ledge, she could slither like a snake thru 10” opening. But we see reenactor dol could.

----- Other distortion, such as the relation of SA reenactor & doll & window wall. If actual-Chloe-sized doll had been used, vids would have shown that at some points, w each millimeter SA leaned forward, that Chloe was pushed that much closer to the open window. W bogus reenactmt doll,instead of a Chloe-size doll, w reenactor leaning forward, the side vid still shows space btwn doll & window, not pushing doll. Winkleman said earlier plenty of room/space.

----- And other reasons eluding me now, but which some sleuthers will post shortly. jmo

 

[LietKynes]

Reenactmt. Why the Not-to-Scale Bikini Barbie? To Distract & Distort?
Reviewing reenactmt doll pix, I noticed, not just inaccurate age, bust development, and clothing, but also how downright thin the doll was. Why this doll?
----- To distract viewers, so they focus on ^ inaccuracies, not the danger SA caused.

----- To distort viewers' perceptions of spacial relationships. For ex: if viewers imagined doll falling into the ‘slot’ or space btwn guard rail & ship's outer 'wall, it/she would have just slipped btwn rail & wall, and fallen to floor. Oops, maybe a skinned knee & a bruised elbow, nothing like injuries after Chloe’s 100+ ft fall, This 'slot' looks imo like < 10’’ inches (based on marks at 3 1/2" and at 1 ft-1" on measuring tape in pic that @they'll get you posted, several posts up thread). Could Chloe have fallen randomly/willy-nilly thru that < 10” slot, without human guidance? Imo doubtful that in SA’s grasp or from standing or sitting on rail or ledge, she could slither like a snake thru 10” opening. But we see reenactor dol could.

----- Other distortion, such as the relation of SA reenactor & doll & window wall. If actual-Chloe-sized doll had been used, vids would have shown that at some points, w each millimeter SA leaned forward, that Chloe was pushed that much closer to the open window. W bogus reenactmt doll,instead of a Chloe-size doll, w reenactor leaning forward, the side vid still shows space btwn doll & window, not pushing doll. Winkleman said earlier plenty of room/space.

----- And other reasons eluding me now, but which some sleuthers will post shortly. jmo

Ita.
Also, imo ---they needed a thin doll to portray how step grandpa thought she'd fallen through the railing.
Even though the video shows SA placing her on the window ledge.

 

[Snoods]

There’s no way IMO this man would have intentionally hurt that precious child, his granddaughter. Every websleuth here knows monsters can look like very average people. Evil has many faces. And it would take a monster to commit such a heinous act. But grandpa is NOT that monster.
This was a terrible and tragic accident and this poor family will never be the same again.
Can you imagine your own family’s annual vacay, taking a fun cruise together, making memories, because THAT’S what families do- but ending this tragically is horrifying.
If just once I could ever be a witness to even just a handful of the online communities in our world of cyber rallying behind people involved in a tragic loss, supporting those people instead of spewing venomous and hurtful things about them, how amazing that would be. But it’ll never happen. This is a quality family, they’re good hearted people, yet broken hearted. I extend my condolences. I’m rooting them on. I’d rather do that than chop them down based on zero evidence that this was intentional. All the best. I hope they can make it past this, together.

I don’t think he intentionally murdered her for nefarious reasons by throwing her out the window. I do think he is a disgusting, reckless and negligent liar. Honestly, he makes my skin crawl. I do think he knew the window was open and recklessly held Chloe outside the window until dropping her to her death. SA caused her death by his unreasonable and negligent behavior.

I think the family’s numerous free money grabs are distasteful and turn many people off. I agree the family will never be the same. What family would? Blaming anyone or anything other than the man who carelessly dropped her out an 11 story high open window is wrong. Trying to collect a windfall because SA negligently caused Chloe’s death is wrong. IMO.

 

[TDoc72]

I understand what you mean, you explained it very well.
I wasn't clear in my post and it's too late to edit now, but what I was wondering is when he originally looked over the railing before he lifted her over, is it possible that he was actually looking down between the railing and the window and not all the way out the window?
I know he appears to be leaning forward and looking out the actual window but it's hard to tell from the video. A camera angled on the side of the ship on the outside would show it better but we haven't seen that. Imo

You mean looking between the window and rail down at the floor? Why would he want to look at the carpet?

Family attorneys say cruise line's story of toddler's death is 'physically impossible'

Using a man of Anello's height and stature to conduct a reenactment, Winkleman's team took measurements to see if the scenario could have played out the way Royal Caribbean claims.

That man doesn’t look similar at all.

This is what I think happened too. He wasn't paying attention, he acted impetuously. He may have had other things on his mind and he wasn't focusing on what he was doing.
I'm sure he wishes he could go back to that moment and do everything differently, but it's too late and he will have to pay the consequences.
Even though he will probably not spend any time in prison he will likely be haunted for the rest of his life.

If the family had returned to Indiana to grieve and the grandfather had to live with this w/o being charged, I would get that. That’s what I thought was happening since they didn’t charge him right away. A terrible reckless accident that he has to live with. It’s really this whole lawsuit that chaps my a—. So now I’m glad the PR has charged him. If he was smart, he would take the plea. But since he thinks putting children out a window is ok, he’s not smart.

 

[they'll get you]

There’s no way IMO this man would have intentionally hurt that precious child, his granddaughter. Every websleuth here knows monsters can look like very average people. Evil has many faces. And it would take a monster to commit such a heinous act. But grandpa is NOT that monster.
This was a terrible and tragic accident and this poor family will never be the same again.
Can you imagine your own family’s annual vacay, taking a fun cruise together, making memories, because THAT’S what families do- but ending this tragically is horrifying.
If just once I could ever be a witness to even just a handful of the online communities in our world of cyber rallying behind people involved in a tragic loss, supporting those people instead of spewing venomous and hurtful things about them, how amazing that would be. But it’ll never happen. This is a quality family, they’re good hearted people, yet broken hearted. I extend my condolences. I’m rooting them on. I’d rather do that than chop them down based on zero evidence that this was intentional. All the best. I hope they can make it past this, together.

I’ve wondered if he intentionally dropped Chloe only because I can’t get my head around his absolute fool stupidity.
If it was agreed it was a terrible and tragic accident then the family should’ve accepted that and moved on but I’ve been on those ships and a child could not get up there on its own.
The seats are all too low and the tables do not move.
I certainly wish the family well but I ultimately want and need justice for Chloe.
Gramps has been charged for a reason and we must trust the wheels of justice

 

[ZoriahNZ]

And then there's the random image of them measuring a sticker on the windo... wait there's already stickers on the windows??

View attachment 227713

Snipped by me. Doesn't this photo also suggest that a person can easily extend their arms to touch the window, to open the window, and place their hands through the window? The person doing the measuring is not standing straight onto the window yet his arms are clearly reasonably bent during the measuring.

Whether or not SA leaned his entire upper body outside the window, it's reasonable to assume that he leaned out far enough to be able to see/hear/feel that the window was open. His head would be way closer than 18 inches to it.
In my opinion it is more than reasonable to assume that he is leaning close to - if not out of - the window due to the angle of his body on video.

Regardless, I think the 'reenactment' actually raises the question just how far out did he have to lean for CW to fall out as far as she did. I don't think it helps his case at all. Or the Wiegland's.

 

[katydid23]

There’s no way IMO this man would have intentionally hurt that precious child, his granddaughter. Every websleuth here knows monsters can look like very average people. Evil has many faces. And it would take a monster to commit such a heinous act. But grandpa is NOT that monster.
This was a terrible and tragic accident and this poor family will never be the same again.
Can you imagine your own family’s annual vacay, taking a fun cruise together, making memories, because THAT’S what families do- but ending this tragically is horrifying.
If just once I could ever be a witness to even just a handful of the online communities in our world of cyber rallying behind people involved in a tragic loss, supporting those people instead of spewing venomous and hurtful things about them, how amazing that would be. But it’ll never happen. This is a quality family, they’re good hearted people, yet broken hearted. I extend my condolences. I’m rooting them on. I’d rather do that than chop them down based on zero evidence that this was intentional. All the best. I hope they can make it past this, together.

I cannot root them on as long as they are bashing the cruise line company instead of admitting to the reckless behaviour of the grandfather.

If they had asked for privacy while they grieved, instead of going on aq national tour to blame the cruise company and if Grandfather had taken responsibility and not tried to blame everyone else but himself, I could be more sympathetic towards them.

 

[katydid23]

Reenactmt. Why the Not-to-Scale Bikini Barbie? To Distract & Distort?
Reviewing reenactmt doll pix, I noticed, not just inaccurate age, bust development, and clothing, but also how downright thin the doll was. Why this doll? Why the thin, not-toddler- proportioned body?
----- To distract viewers, so they focus on ^ inaccuracies, not the danger SA caused.

----- To distort viewers' perceptions of spacial relationships. For ex: if viewers imagined doll falling into the ‘slot’ or space btwn guard rail & ship's outer 'wall, it/she would have just slipped btwn rail & wall, and fallen to floor. Oops, maybe a skinned knee & a bruised elbow, nothing like injuries after Chloe’s 100+ ft fall, This 'slot' looks imo like < 10’’ inches (based on marks at 3 1/2" and at 1 ft-1" on measuring tape in pic that @they'll get you posted, several posts up thread). Could Chloe have fallen randomly/willy-nilly thru that < 10” slot, without human guidance? Imo doubtful that in SA’s grasp or from standing or sitting on rail or ledge, she could slither like a snake thru 10” opening. But we see reenactor dol could.

----- Other distortion, such as the relation of SA reenactor & doll & window wall. If actual-Chloe-sized doll had been used, vids would have shown that at some points, w each millimeter SA leaned forward, that Chloe was pushed that much closer to the open window. W bogus reenactmt doll,instead of a Chloe-size doll, w reenactor leaning forward, the side vid still shows space btwn doll & window, not pushing doll. Winkleman said earlier plenty of room/space.

----- And other reasons eluding me now, but which some sleuthers will post shortly. jmo

All of the above and one more main reason, IMO.

I think they were afraid to use a life size toddler type doll because it would be so shocking to see him stand up a realistic baby under the age of 2, on that skinny ledge. It shocks the senses to see a man doing that.

Somehow that mini bikini barbie makes it look less shocking and more like wa dream or a joke.

 

[justbreathe]

IMO... another contradiction by SA. He said he watched her fall “all the away down”. How could he do that if he looked for her on the ship’s floor first? It would only have been a matter of seconds before Chloe landed on the pier.

The design of the windows, imo.

 

[justbreathe]

The only thing I remember is reading that the 11 yr old was the first family member who happened upon the aftermath of the tragedy.

Made me wonder if maybe Mom had called him and asked him to come and help by playing with his baby sister. I wish it had happened that way.

And that he told his mom something happened to Chloe.

 

[Fidobell]

Babies heads come in all shapes and sizes.
There is nothing abnormal about her head.

Imo

Chloes hair has also not grown in yet, perhaps making it seem like a lot of skin surface when in fact it's not , my dd was exactly the same at this age . Sadly I got to see my dd grow

 

[justbreathe]

The comments on that Yahoo article are interesting. Someone commented that they had $200k/600k insurance on Chloe. I haven't seen that reported as fact anywhere, just speculation that the motive was insurance.

Yes, someone keeps saying that but so far there is no proof if that.

I wonder if it is just a troll or someone with inside info?

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Yes, someone keeps saying that but so far there is no proof if that.

I wonder if it is just a troll or someone with inside info?

LE and the court should be able to find out something like that. If it's true though, there's a motive. JMOO

 

[JerseySleuth17]

Just pray katy that the people on the jury are smart enough to see the light through all the smoke and mirrors when they all see and touch those windows themselves.

No prayers needed, if this ever went to a jury and they take a visit to the cruise ship to see the actual location, there is zero point zero chance any reasonable person would not know that window was open. In fact I think a BLIND person would know the window was open - it's not just the difference in clarity I.e. no tinted glass, it's the breeze, it's the smell/fresh air. That's why the color blind excuse is ridiculous. A blind person could have used their other senses to determine they were standing in front of an area not enclosed. SA knows the real reason but is now so married to his ridiculous excuse he can't change his story now without blowing the family's money grab against RCCL. It's all going to come out it's only a matter of time.

 

[justbreathe]

There’s no way IMO this man would have intentionally hurt that precious child, his granddaughter. Every websleuth here knows monsters can look like very average people. Evil has many faces. And it would take a monster to commit such a heinous act. But grandpa is NOT that monster.
This was a terrible and tragic accident and this poor family will never be the same again.
Can you imagine your own family’s annual vacay, taking a fun cruise together, making memories, because THAT’S what families do- but ending this tragically is horrifying.
If just once I could ever be a witness to even just a handful of the online communities in our world of cyber rallying behind people involved in a tragic loss, supporting those people instead of spewing venomous and hurtful things about them, how amazing that would be. But it’ll never happen. This is a quality family, they’re good hearted people, yet broken hearted. I extend my condolences. I’m rooting them on. I’d rather do that than chop them down based on zero evidence that this was intentional. All the best. I hope they can make it past this, together.

The real victim here was Chloe. This lawsuit is distasteful.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

All along I have been thinking...okay 18 inches I guess/maybe seems a lot from outside the rail to end of window ledge. Then I did something that really put things into perspective for me. I got a tape measure out and pulled it out to 18 inches. I measured from under my armpit down my arm and at 18 inches it stopped just at my wrist. From under my armpit to my tip of my fingertips it measured 26 inches. 18 inches from the top of my head came to just above the end of my sternum. I also put it in front of my face from the tip of my nose to see how far it was from my face. I am 5’7. Wow...

SA is suppose to be 5’11. IMO, if SA was standing upright, even with his gut just touching the outside of the railing, he could have put Chloe at the window at least 5-8 inches. If he was “bent over,” he could put her even further out. So I call BS on MW’s “physically impossible” claim.

Although I really didn’t need to do these measurements because, IMO, the video shows SA leaning out the window and holding Chloe outside the window, doing so reenforced what I knew all along.

It's not 18 inches it's basically only 9 inches from the wood railing to the edge of the window sill. One of the court filings in the motion to dismiss (see page 71 of this thread) has dozens of pictures with measurements. Ironically this is in the family's court filings, but when I saw those measurements I thought the distance between the railing and the window sill is less than the length of a typical man's forearm from elbow to hand! And that's not even extending your arm out!

 

[neesaki]

Notice all the people running to the “open windows” after Chloe’s gone to lean out the window to look below to see what happened. Hummm...obviously it can be done and they weren’t “looking down through the bottom glass” to look at the dock.

One man that looked out can be seen through the window just this side of him, his entire upper body. Several people bent over from the waist with heads and shoulders out the window. Civil attorney is so full of you know what, and SA is nailed. IMO

 

[In vino veritas]

SA has a court appearance in PR tomorrow, presumably to set a trial date. I wonder how strenuously his defense attorney is urging him to accept a plea deal, especially if the attorney has been given additional, incriminating “discovery”.
Based on the comments I’ve read from folks in PR, I strongly believe, IMO, that a jury will not at all be sympathetic to SA.

 

[mheido67]

Just a few observations:

• It’s pretty difficult to make specific accurate assessments of where people’s bodies are relative to the plane of the glass in the grainy videos that are in the public domain.
  
• RCCL has submitted what they called enhanced resolution footage of the two camera angles to the court. MW has motioned to have this footage struck. Not even sure he saw it before making the motion. Would really love to see that footage.
  
• RCCL has also stated to the court that there is no additional footage from other cameras that captured the events of the incident. Hard to believe they would state that if they knew it not to be true. I don’t expect to ever see any.
  
• One thing that I did notice when I rewatched the video is that the next operable window to the right of the one CW fell from was also open at the time. The family attorney has made a big point of claiming there was one open window in a wall of glass. Seemingly not the case.
  
• In my opinion MW is going to regret submitting a lot of those recreation photos. Particularly the ones showing the doll held out at the frame of the window.

 

[neesaki]

You are right! That other photo measurement was distorted. Weird. Pays to check around. 19 inches was right on the money then.

I thought it was determined to be 17 inches.
From outer window sill to inner edge of rail is 13 in. , and the width of the rail is 4 in.
Am I missing 2 inches somewhere? TIA