IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[JerseySleuth17]

Just a few observations:

• In my opinion MW is going to regret submitting a lot of those recreation photos. Particularly the ones showing the doll held out at the frame of the window.

The recreation is ridiculous. You don't even need a doll. You just take the jury to the ship, show them the open window, show them it was only 9 inches from the wood railing to the window sill, so they can ask themselves if they would ever lift a child up and then lean them forward towards "glass". That action alone is extremely reckless.

 

[neesaki]

See the two documents below. This is public record.

Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase

Expired Document Link - MyCase

Document link expired.

 

[MsBetsy]

You mean looking between the window and rail down at the floor? Why would he want to look at the carpet?


That man doesn’t look similar at all.



If the family had returned to Indiana to grieve and the grandfather had to live with this w/o being charged, I would get that. That’s what I thought was happening since they didn’t charge him right away. A terrible reckless accident that he has to live with. It’s really this whole lawsuit that chaps my a—. So now I’m glad the PR has charged him. If he was smart, he would take the plea. But since he thinks putting children out a window is ok, he’s not smart.

I don't think he's too bright either but I'm not sure it was his choice to file the lawsuit in the first place. It may have been solely the parents decision and since they went ahead and filed it he probably feels he has no choice but to put the blame on the ship and not admit his own mistakes.
He did say that at first he thought it was his fault and I think he was right the first time and likely he still believes that.
However, being a close family he probably feels like he has no choice but to go along with their claims.
And then there is Winkleman who may have convinced him that the ship was negligent.

If he just accepts the plea deal then the case would be over and the pressure would be off.

I'm not sure the reason he wants to go to trial is because he wants to clear his name. It's only a misdemeanor, it's not like he will ever be a convicted felon.

I'm not sure if the plea deal is still on the table but I hope he comes to his senses and just admits that he was negligent so this can be over.
It may damage his relationship with his daughter and the rest of his family, but at least he won't risk going to prison.

Oh and in regard to him looking over the railing and down towards the floor, I only mentioned it because he apparently insists he did not look out the window.
So if he is telling the truth that is the only other place it seems like he would look.
Why he would look there I don't know. Maybe he was looking out the lower window.
I'm not sure why he would look out the other window either.

Imo

 

[ilovewings]

The real victim here was Chloe. This lawsuit is distasteful.

I have to say given the horror of this story involving this poor child, this family has managed to alienate many many people who would have been sympathetic to them. Going on the Today Show before Chloe was cold in her grave did not garner them many sympathetic to them- and immediately talking about suing the cruise ship at that point, was, well, disgusting---- Her parents and grandpa really come across very poorly in this tragic scenario. Yes, the real victim is Chloe----

 

[Chikkamma]

The recreation is ridiculous. You don't even need a doll. You just take the jury to the ship, show them the open window, show them it was only 9 inches from the wood railing to the window sill, so they can ask themselves if they would ever lift a child up and then lean them forward towards "glass". That action alone is extremely reckless.

The Freedom of the Seas went in for a refurbishment and the area where the incident happened was set to be refurbished as well. The jurors may never get to see these windows in person.

I sincerely hope RCCL preserved the evidence so the setup of the scene can be re-created for a jury.

 

[mheido67]

The Freedom of the Seas went in for a refurbishment and the area where the incident happened was set to be refurbished as well. It is possible the jurors may never get to see these windows in person?

They’re not changing the windows. When these ships go into dry dock for refurbishment every single new thing that will go onto the ship has been planned and ready for months and months. And the vast majority of the changes are revenue producing. Restaurants, bars, room rehabs. There’s no money to be made by changing the windows so there would have been no reason to touch them. It’s a finely choreographed flurry of tradespeople working methodically to get everything done on schedule. There is no way any physical aspect of those windows will be changed.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Winkleman also brings up a good point that doesn't really benefit SA:
So to be able to go out of that window, you'd have to lean so far that you would be at risk of falling.
In watching the video I did think he would have risked falling with him being bent over so far possibly with his feet off the floor where if he didn't drop Chloe he would have followed her out the window if he had continued to hold on as she fell. SA putting himself and Chloe in a precarious position only bolsters the recklessness of what SA did. He didn't exactly appear to be in a solid stance upright immediately before Chloe was dropped.

 

[MsBetsy]

The Freedom of the Seas went in for a refurbishment and the area where the incident happened was set to be refurbished as well. It is possible the jurors may never get to see these windows in person?

Well, if the refurbishment includes replacing the windows or making them so they don't open all the way then I would think that helps both the civil and the criminal case.
Maybe that's one reason why SM would not accept the plea deal.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I thought it was determined to be 17 inches.
From outer window sill to inner edge of rail is 13 in. , and the width of the rail is 4 in.
Am I missing 2 inches somewhere? TIA

I think it depends on who is doing the measuring.
It was reported in MSM to be 18 inches until Winkleman claimed it was 19 inches.
So for now I'm assuming it is somewhere between 17 inches and 19 inches. Which would be about 18 inches.

Imo

 

[weepingangel]

The Freedom of the Seas went in for a refurbishment and the area where the incident happened was set to be refurbished as well. The jurors may never get to see these windows in person.

I sincerely hope RCCL preserved the evidence so the setup of the scene can be re-created for a jury.

I’d bet my last dollar they’ll be an actual “wall of windows” set up either in the courtroom (or elsewhere if space doesn’t allow) for the jury If a trip to the actual site isn’t possible /can’t happen due to refurbishments of the windows

 

[Lawsmygame2]

Document link expired.

It was a link to a case filed in court of behalf of the estate of Chloe to appoint the parents as personal representatives to administer Chloe’s estate. An order granted by the court was titled, “Order appointing personal representatives for the sole purpose of filing a wrongful death suit.”

This case was opened on July 16, 2019.

 

[Chikkamma]

Yes, this is exactly what he meant I believe. As he looked down at the floor he didn’t see her there. Instead through the lower glass he saw her falling to the pier below. Horrible.

I genuinely believe his attention was not fully on CW and the details of the window. I think he assumed there was glass and casually tried to hold her forward so she could touch the glass but he wasn’t really looking with any focus. It was just another opportunity for her to bang on a window. To pass some time. So when she fell he was unaware of her actual position relative to the window frame. Clearly, if he didn’t recognize there was no glass he couldn’t have been very focused on the window. She fell, he thought she would be at his feet but she was much further forward than he realized. To my mind this explains both his surprise that she hadn’t fallen at his feet and that he didn’t realize there was no glass. He was just not paying attention. He was careless. And I doubt he would have noticed a warning label if there had been one present.

What reason do you have to believe the words of a man charged with negligent homicide and desperate not to go to jail? SA’s brain has been doing mental gymnastics since this happened to absolve himself of the crushing guilt he must feel and I think every word he says must be taken with a grain of salt in light of this.

I don’t think what he says is to be believed or should be given any credence. IMOO.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I have to say given the horror of this story involving this poor child, this family has managed to alienate many many people who would have been sympathetic to them. Going on the Today Show before Chloe was cold in her grave did not garner them many sympathetic to them- and immediately talking about suing the cruise ship at that point, was, well, disgusting---- Her parents and grandpa really come across very poorly in this tragic scenario. Yes, the real victim is Chloe----

ITA. Perfectly put.

 

[MsBetsy]

What reason do you have to believe the words of a man charged with negligent homicide and desperate not to go to jail? SA’s brain has been doing mental gymnastics since this happened to absolve himself of the crushing guilt he must feel and I think every word he says must be taken with a grain of salt in light of this.

I don’t think what he says is to be believed or should be given any credence. IMOO.

If he was so desperate not to go to prison then why not just accept the plea deal?
I know he says he wants his name cleared but if the main reason was to avoid that kind of sentence I would think he would just accept the deal and be done with it.
He is not being charged with a felony and even if he does go to trial he may not get prison time.
The three years is the maximum he could be sentenced to, I believe.

Imo

 

[justice4allnow]

This is the strangest case. It's been described as an accident by the family and their supporters-yet Sam's actions appear to be very deliberate. He purposely circumvented the safety measures put in place by RC and lifted an innocent toddler over a safety railing and out an 11th story window. And after the predictable tragic outcome, the family and their supporters proceeded to demonize the ship, the company and the Puerto Rican legal system. So no, most of us aren't prone to give Sam and his family support and donations.
A tragic accident would have been something like Sam slipping and falling downstairs while holding Chloe. That's not close to what happened. Everything that he actually did was deliberate, not accidental, and horrifying to watch. Chloe's life belonged to her, not to her family, and she was wrongly deprived of it. And many people here believe that she deserves justice.

 

[justbreathe]

One man that looked out can be seen through the window just this side of him, his entire upper body. Several people bent over from the waist with heads and shoulders out the window. Civil attorney is so full of you know what, and SA is nailed. IMO

Also MW said this was the only open window but clearly it is not at all.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

This is the strangest case. It's been described as an accident by the family and their supporters-yet Sam's actions appear to be very deliberate. He purposely circumvented the safety measures put in place by RC and lifted an innocent toddler over a safety railing and out an 11th story window. And after the predictable tragic outcome, the family and their supporters proceeded to demonize the ship, the company and the Puerto Rican legal system. So no, most of us aren't prone to give Sam and his family support and donations.
A tragic accident would have been something like Sam slipping and falling downstairs while holding Chloe. That's not close to what happened. Everything that he actually did was deliberate, not accidental, and horrifying to watch. Chloe's life belonged to her, not to her family, and she was wrongly deprived of it. And many people here believe that she deserves justice.

BBM OMG, are you me??!! I was just saying that very thing to my DH. An accident would be forgivable, what really happened is not. I have thought from the beginning that this was deliberate, and as the story has unfolded, it seems to be getting more and more sinister. I truly believe SA did this on purpose, and the purpose was money. I also have some other theories that I cannot go in to in depth on this public thread due to TOS. But I think they will be coming out in public in the court case very soon.

 

[mheido67]

What reason do you have to believe the words of a man charged with negligent homicide and desperate not to go to jail? SA’s brain has been doing mental gymnastics since this happened to absolve himself of the crushing guilt he must feel and I think every word he says must be taken with a grain of salt in light of this.

I don’t think what he says is to be believed or should be given any credence. IMOO.

Offering an interpretation for what he said doesn’t require me to give it credence. It is what he said. What I offered was an explanation of how what he said fits with the physical character of the windows. People were questioning how he could be looking at the floor and see her falling outside the window. As the photos show it is perfectly possible to do so.

I personally do not believe he intended to harm CW. As I explained I think he was not paying attention to his surroundings and did something stupid that caused her death.

 

[justbreathe]

The Freedom of the Seas went in for a refurbishment and the area where the incident happened was set to be refurbished as well. The jurors may never get to see these windows in person.

I sincerely hope RCCL preserved the evidence so the setup of the scene can be re-created for a jury.

Does refurbishment mean the window set up will change? They still might be able to stand at the same spot by the same railing and window.

 

[justbreathe]

What reason do you have to believe the words of a man charged with negligent homicide and desperate not to go to jail? SA’s brain has been doing mental gymnastics since this happened to absolve himself of the crushing guilt he must feel and I think every word he says must be taken with a grain of salt in light of this.

I don’t think what he says is to be believed or should be given any credence. IMOO.

I started mentioning this as the one thing he said that actually seems to male sense and fit with the evidence. Seriously, the one thing!

I imagine that watching her fall was not something to be anticipated by intending to just look at the floor.