IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[katydid23]

If only I took a photo of me leaning out the window. Man am I kicking myself!

Don't be too hard on yourself. How could you know that Winkleman would say it was 'physically impossible' for you to do so?

 

[katydid23]

Think about it, what is the #1 reason people say as to why they ran into a sliding glass door?

Didn't see it.

Think about it. Why didn't they see it?

They were moving too fast, walkng into it, runnig into it.

Have you ever heard of anyone running into a glass door after they have stood in front of it for 30 seconds?

No.

Why?

Because that gives you ample time to see that the glass,
is in fact, right in front of you!

And can you imagine standing in front of an OPEN sliding glass door for 30 seconds and not know if it was open or closed?

 

[Cool Cats]

And can you imagine standing in front of an OPEN sliding glass door for 30 seconds and not know if it was open or closed?

Great point!

Rephrasing:

Have you ever heard of someone standing in front of an open sliding glass door for 30 seconds and then asking the home owner if they can open the door because it's closed and they want to go out?

 

[Chikkamma]

There will be footage of him in customs, walking up the gangway and everywhere on board, even to him interacting with mum before she left him with Chloe.

Ive seen families with walkie talkies to communicate around the ship but their cell phones would’ve worked at the dock. So how did he know mum needed him to look after Chloe?

There’s probably footage of him getting his luggage from baggage claim too.

I hope his suitcase was green or red...

 

[MsBetsy]

No, there was no video of the actual crime, but they could have reconstructed the fence inside the court room

That is true but it would only show that it is possible for the crime to have occurred.

In this case the best evidence the prosecution has is the surveillance footage. It shows the entire event which is hard to dispute.

Winkleman seems to think that the video somehow shows that SM is not at fault. He claims he did not lean over and stick his head out the window but I have yet to see one person that agrees. That's a pretty good indication of the way the jury will see it, too.

Imo

 

[al66pine]

"Jury View" Statutes? PR Crim Law. FL Civil Procedure.

I don't think bringing windows and a railing into a court room is going to have the same effect as standing on the 11th floor of a boat.

@Lawnguylander1964 Agreed, a courtroom replica will not give jurors the full, live, in-person, technicolor, surround-sound experience as a jury view of ship. Or the salt air & breeze.
I'm wondering about whether crim judge will permit a jury view, assuming PR criminal law procedure* & local court rules permit it.

Or in Florida civil action: ”Upon motion of either party the jury may be taken to view the premises or place in question or any property, matter, or thing relating to the controversy between the parties when it appears that view is necessary to a just decision; but the party making the motion shall advance a sum sufficient to defray the expenses of the jury and the officer who attends them in taking the view, which expense shall be taxed as costs if the party who advanced it prevails.” bbm
(W a quickie search, did not find more specifics re FL re factors below)
Each state specifies basics, w a few variations.
Who goes to scene?
--- Only jurors & only a person appointed by ct to accompany.
--- Jurors, judge, attys for both sides, court reporters; in crim trial defendant too.
--- Security (bailiffs, local LEOs, etc?).
What happens at scene?
--- Jurors view scene by themselves, w no one speaking/explaining.
--- Jurors view scene, may review photos, materials already intro’ed into evd.
--- Jurors view scene, and some witnesses attend and are questioned by attys.
How costs of jury view are handled, which party is charged.
Either party may request a jury view, and judge has discretion to grant or deny, per my reading. If a jury view is permitted, details are in ct order permitting the jury view.
Info/url** re a few state statutes below.
------------------------------------------------------------
* Sorry, did not try to track down PR law in Spanish & use online-app to translate-mangle

into English.
**Jury View Laws
NewJersey ..... 2013 New Jersey Revised Statutes :: Title 2B - COURT ORGANIZATION AND CIVIL CODE :: Section 2B:23-16 - Jury of view.
Indiana.............Indiana Jury Rules.
Mississippi ......https://law.justia.com/codes/mississippi/2013/title-13/chapter-5/section-13-5-91/

 

[sl222]

...My heart aches for Chloe and the fact that no one is taking responsibility for the actions of SW. ...

Well said.

 

[scruffydog]

Exactly my point!! I guess my sarcasm didn’t come through in my post.

They need the money for more cruises!

 

[neesaki]

They “cannot grieve as a family until all criminal charges are dropped” AND they win kazillions of dollars. These people are something else...

I totally agree. The depth of their denial is a bit disturbing , IMO.

So, just a question.... do you think it has something to do with them both being in the world of law enforcement? Does that grant them a special sense of entitlement? Or, is that just their belief? I really don’t know, just wondering if that’s how it works.
TIA

 

[mjp1228]

Oh my, is someone paying the Daily Mail to print this drivel?


"Alan and Kimberly Wiegand say evidence from their own private investigation into Chloe's fatal plunge from the Freedom of the Seas shows it was 'physically impossible' for Salvatore Anello to have dangled her overboard.

As the elderly, color-blind grandpa made his third court appearance today in San Juan, the couple called on prosecutors to scrap the negligent homicide charge so they can finally grieve together as a family."


So this 'new evidence' is that silly reenactment video that looks like it was done for a middle school project?

Oh my, is someone paying the Daily Mail to print this drivel?


"Alan and Kimberly Wiegand say evidence from their own private investigation into Chloe's fatal plunge from the Freedom of the Seas shows it was 'physically impossible' for Salvatore Anello to have dangled her overboard.

As the elderly, color-blind grandpa made his third court appearance today in San Juan, the couple called on prosecutors to scrap the negligent homicide charge so they can finally grieve together as a family."


So this 'new evidence' is that silly reenactment video that looks like it was done for a middle school project?

Why do they insist on calling him elderly? He can’t even retire for 10+ years yet. I consider my 89 year old colorblind dad elderly - yet he can easily tell an open window from a closed one. If his vision is so bad he can’t differentiate, how does he have a driver’s license?

 

[katydid23]

Great point!

Rephrasing:

Have you ever heard of someone standing in front of an open sliding glass door for 30 seconds and then asking the home owner if they can open the door because it's closed and they want to go out?

Yes.
And he says he didn't know because he was colourblind. But would you need tinted glass to know if it was open or closed?

 

[Cool Cats]

I hope his suitcase was green or red

He said he got communication from the general public telling him it's obvious when a window is open (on that ship) because they are tinted. Now his entire
defense is color blindness.

He never stated color blindness before - that I know of - remember he was all distraught crying that "I didn't know it was open!" "I didn't know it was open!"

Then when confronted that it was in fact a tinted window that looks different from closed ones next to it, he changed his story to "I didn't see the window was open because I am color blind."

If true, why did he not, in his shock and grief, cry out that he didn't see it because
"I couldn't see it!" "I am color blind!" "I am color blind!" " That's why I didn't see it! "

Or at least, last July, mention the color blindness as opposed to announcing it now?
Announcing it when your going into court with reporters all around.

Never mind -- just answered my own question..

See I get suspicious when people's stories change.

Unless I am missing something here.


...2 Cents...

 

[katydid23]

Why do they insist on calling him elderly? He can’t even retire for 10+ years yet. I consider my 89 year old colorblind dad elderly - yet he can easily tell an open window from a closed one. If his vision is so bad he can’t differentiate, how does he have a driver’s license?

And if so, why was he given an 18 month old to watch on a crowded cruise liner?

I'd never give my granddaughter to my elderly mother to watch after in a public place. If this man was so visually debilitated that he couldn't distinguish between open or closed windows, and didn't understand what guard rails were for, WHY was he given that baby to care for?

 

[neesaki]

One more point before I turn in. About Projection. It just seems appropriate in this case. Not saying it’s any excuse, at all, whatsoever. Especially concerning SA, it absolutely is not, as he is the sole person responsible for Chloe’s death. No one else. He can project all he wants, but it won’t change a thing, he just needs to own up. Then move on. Maybe this civil suit is hampering his ability to do that? Jmo

So I was mostly thinking of Chloe’s parents I guess. Just take what you want, and leave the rest.

“Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people n employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings.Nov 15, 2017”
Everyday Health › emotional-health

Psychological Projection: Dealing With Undesirable Emotions - Everyday Health

 

[weepingangel]

I’ll be 51 in a few months. Some days I feel old. Some days really old. Never would I consider myself an elderly person. FYI I probably do look older than my actual age due to my “rough life” or whatever

 

[MsBetsy]

Why do they insist on calling him elderly? He can’t even retire for 10+ years yet. I consider my 89 year old colorblind dad elderly - yet he can easily tell an open window from a closed one. If his vision is so bad he can’t differentiate, how does he have a driver’s license?

Well, if he is considered elderly then I had better go shopping for a cane and some bifocals so I can be well prepared for my fifties.

I guess it's all downhill from then on.

 

[al66pine]

Jury Views? or Reenactments?.

Back to jury crime scene trips and reenactments. OJ and Phil Spector - the jury went to the crime scene. In Phil Spector, they sat on the furniture and pretended to be Lana Clarkson. The jury was doing their own reenactments at the house. Here is an interesting one. The jury gets on a bus and they drive them around to the different places the defendant went leading up to the crime. So a semi-reenactment.

Murder trial jury takes trip to crime scene....

. @Lawnguylander1964 sbm bbm Thanks for bringing posting these examples. From the post, without more info, appears judges allowed the OJ jury and Spector jury as a group, to view or inspect "the property which is the subject of litigation, or the place at which the offense is charged to have been committed, or the place or places at which any material fact occurred..."
IOW, jury viewed property, the land, the house, contents, like passing around a photo or letter while sitting in the jury box, but w property too big for courtroom. At those two sites, no witnesses performed; no "reenactors" did anything, IIRC. So those were "jury views."

Splitting hairs? No, yes, maybe. But reenactments are different animals from jury views.

 

[neesaki]

Well, if he is considered elderly then I had better go shopping for a cane and some bifocals so I can be well prepared for my fifties.

I guess it's all downhill from then on.

Right? Amazing how Daily Mail repeatedly uses the terms “elderly” and “color blind”. Propaganda at its best ! Some “attorneys “ must have paid dearly for it, not to mention the blatantly obvious bias in their report.

I read somewhere that true journalism is dead. Maybe that’s more true than I realized. JMO

 

[Sweetsbeach]

Right? Amazing how Daily Mail repeatedly uses the terms “elderly” and “color blind”. Propaganda at its best ! Some “attorneys “ must have paid dearly for it, not to mention the blatantly obvious bias in their report.

I read somewhere that true journalism is dead. Maybe that’s more true than I realized. JMO

Using the term Elderly to describe someone who doesn't yet qualify for senior citizen discounts seems a bit ridiculous IMO.

 

[Andreee]

Well, if he is considered elderly then I had better go shopping for a cane and some bifocals so I can be well prepared for my fifties.

I guess it's all downhill from then on.

I guess 50 is the new 80.