IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[WiseGuy]

I honestly find it a little strange that he was all alone with CW. The ship had not even left the port yet, which means they had not done the lifevest drill. There were 4 adults and 2 kids on this cruise. At a minimum I would have thought CW would be with wherever her older brother was and whomever was watching them. And where was grandma, she came on the cruise with SA as her partner. How did a party of 6 get separated enough that the baby wound up all alone with SA and 15 minutes later she is dead? Even if the mom had to take care of something at the guest services desk, and grandma went with her, where was dad? This all just seems so odd to me.

Ordinarily, it should be a safe assumption that a 51 year old adult could keep a kid alive for 15 minutes. And just a bit of added info, there were 6 adults: 2 parents, 2 paternal grandparents and Anello & wife. 6 adults to watch 2 kids.

 

[WiseGuy]

dbm

 

[justbreathe]

The criminal case will be over before the civil case gets to court. The outcome of the criminal case may impact the family's desire to move forward with the civil case, and certainly would help RCCL's position if SA is found criminally negligent, but ultimately the civil case centers around whether RC had any duty to warn passengers about open windows, and RC's defense is no because SA did something reckless, and the family's position is he's elderly (lol) and color-blind and infirm and it's reasonable to put such a warning. If a judge could stop frivolous lawsuits or lawsuits with .0001% chance of winning from ever going to trial we would have a lot less activity in the courts. Ultimately I don't even think MW even wants to actually TRY this case he just wants to shakedown RCCL for a payout -unfortunately it's not going the way he thought it would RCCL is not settling to just make this go away - because imo this isn't even a close call, SA did something stupid and reckless and it's his fault.

At least in federal court, the vast majority of cases never get to trial, they are settled or dropped.

It is that way in most jirisdiction, covil and criminal - judges want people to drop silly cases, take the settlement, take the plea...

Judges hate to make decisions at trials that can be appealed and reversed. They prefer people “decide” on their own to do whatever.

It’s not that a judge can stop frivolous lawsuits (that would involve making a decision they have to own). It’s that they can encourage the officers of their court to communicate to their clients their chances of winning. And the judge will remember the idiot lawyer that came before them (or their judge buddies in the office next door) with nonsense. Next time that lawyer wants a favor from the judge whose time was wasted by nonsense, how do you think the judge will lean?

There is a literal formula they do and they
blather and come up with some percentage, and remind you you could lose. And wait in silence and stare at you.

If the judge wants the case to go away, defying him will only annoy the court.

 

[justbreathe]

If it was urgent mum would’ve bundled up Chloe and taken her. It wasn’t urgent for her to leave.
It might have been a simple toilet break.

Imo.

“Cruise business.”

 

[bluedivergirl]

Many years ago, my DH and I attempted to put our one-YO DD in a backpack style child carrier. We got her in it, and she went into a blind panic. She was screaming, thrashing and poor DH's face was covered with scratches from her attempt to get down.

It was very hard to hold onto her little body, and she was only as high as her 5'10" father's shoulders.

I don't know what is worse ~ the possibility that she was panicked as my DD was before she fell, or if SA tossed her out the window.

 

[justice4allnow]

At a minimum I would have thought CW would be with wherever her older brother was and whomever was watching them

Hi Jersey Sleuth, thank you for your interesting posts! When the story first broke, it was reported that Chloe's brother Wyatt and father Alan were swimming together in one of the ship's pools, while Kim and Chloe were at the splash pad. Since Chloe was so vulnerable on a cruise ship, simply by virtue of her size and age, I would have thought that there would always be two adults with her. Especially since both sets of grandparents were there, it would have been easy to keep the ratio of 2 to 1 with a fast toddler.

 

[Montrealaise]

Here you go, I am 5’4 wearing flats not on my toes, and my fingers passed thru the window frame no problem and I wasn’t reaching hard.

I’m a visual person so once I stood there I had the aha moment, no way you didn’t know sir....

And the picture really illustrates why the safety rail was in place - if it wasn't for the rail, a person could go right up to the window, lean over and possibly fall out. The rail is meant to keep people a safe distance from the actual window - how could anyone imagine that someone would deliberately breach the safety rail by lifting a small child over the rail and onto the window sill?

 

[al66pine]

"Needed to Go Help With" Cruise Issue

Either just word salad ....
They are trying to obscure something related to why KW left, and how SA came to be in charge of her. Notice how we hear nothing of how this baby safe with mom in the pool, came to be in the arms of a fully clothed man in front of an open window with mom no where in sight.
(Also, just noticed dig at RCL again - if RCL had not called upon KW about a “cruise issue” she would still be here.)

@justbreathe sbm Yes, bbm in your post is what I thought -- the phrasing (not the "as such") of sentence may have been intended to mask something.
Not that it matters from the legal standpoint, but whatever KSW may have actually been doing veered off the Perfect Mom Script. I'm not saying she was not the perfect mom, but Winkleman's complaint's phrasing does not want Less-Than-Perfect-Mom? to cross our thoughts.
{{{ETA: Nor does Winkleman want us to consider idea of a Less-Than-Perfect-Gr'Father.}}}
-------------------------------------------------
* "12. At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs. Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, ..." bbm from Complaint, page 3.

 

[justice4allnow]

the phrasing (not the "as such") of sentence may have been intended to mask something

al66pine, you always go to heart of the matter. I felt the same way when I learned that neither Kim nor Alan would speak with LE after Chloe's tragic death, were they masking something..

 

[mheido67]

al66pine, you always go to heart of the matter. I felt the same way when I learned that neither Kim nor Alan would speak with LE after Chloe's tragic death, were they masking something..

Honestly, anyone in LE will tell you to say or do as little as possible in such a circumstance. The more you say or do the more that can come back to bite you. Vagueness and inconsistency in statements or actions will, as we all know, be picked apart. It may sound cold but it’s good policy. And both KW and AW know this.

 

[Stinalyn]

Honestly, anyone in LE will tell you to say or do as little as possible in such a circumstance. The more you say or do the more that can come back to bite you. Vagueness and inconsistency in statements or actions will, as we all know, be picked apart. It may sound cold but it’s good policy. And both KW and AW know this.

I agree with you, in general, that this is the case.
And perhaps it would make sense for AW & KW to advise Grandpa not to talk to LE, and for them to not talk to LE....
if the issue in question was anything other than the tragic death of their child.
If my child had died in such a manner, I believe my first instinct would be to find out what the hell happened, and to fully cooperate with authorities in figuring that out.
My thoughts would not be centered on "protecting" or "advising" anyone who was involved. JMO MOO

ETA: (unless of course, I had something to hide) MOO

 

[MsMarple]

That the parents would accept this joke of a re-enactment as “evidence” especially with their chosen occupations reflects quite poorly on their personal characters as well as adhering to professional standards and ethics in their work IMO. It would not have passed muster at the elementary school science fairs I have attended. Denial is one thing but this?

I can't wrap my head around this "investigation" either. I have relatives who are attorneys in Florida in large firms and the firms have an entire investigative team comprised of experienced people. And to conduct the re-enactment using a partner from the firm as a stand in for SA is beyond belief. I wonder what the budget was.

And yes, both parents know better and must realize the shortcomings of the job MW oversaw.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

Hi Jersey Sleuth, thank you for your interesting posts! When the story first broke, it was reported that Chloe's brother Wyatt and father Alan were swimming together in one of the ship's pools, while Kim and Chloe were at the splash pad. Since Chloe was so vulnerable on a cruise ship, simply by virtue of her size and age, I would have thought that there would always be two adults with her. Especially since both sets of grandparents were there, it would have been easy to keep the ratio of 2 to 1 with a fast toddler.

Thanks! There's just something about this case that doesn't sit right with me. I can't articulate it - but it goes beyond the whole money grab with RCCL. I've also been on more than 20 RC cruises and there is literally no way you don't know the window was open when you are leaning inches away from open air. So he knew the window was open - lied about it - and now the entire family is supporting the lie to get $ from RC? Who does that!? Does anyone know where grandma (SA's significant other) was during this time and why she wasn't with SA?

 

[Montrealaise]

At least in federal court, the vast majority of cases never get to trial, they are settled or dropped.

It is that way in most jirisdiction, covil and criminal - judges want people to drop silly cases, take the settlement, take the plea...

Judges hate to make decisions at trials that can be appealed and reversed. They prefer people “decide” on their own to do whatever.

It’s not that a judge can stop frivolous lawsuits (that would involve making a decision they have to own). It’s that they can encourage the officers of their court to communicate to their clients their chances of winning. And the judge will remember the idiot lawyer that came before them (or their judge buddies in the office next door) with nonsense. Next time that lawyer wants a favor from the judge whose time was wasted by nonsense, how do you think the judge will lean?

There is a literal formula they do and they
blather and come up with some percentage, and remind you you could lose. And wait in silence and stare at you.

If the judge wants the case to go away, defying him will only annoy the court.

Well, MW would absolutely LOVE to have this case go away by getting a big fat settlement from RCCL. Unfortunately for him, that doesn't seem to be happening.

 

[LietKynes]

I agree with you, in general, that this is the case.
And perhaps it would make sense for AW & KW to advise Grandpa not to talk to LE, and for them to not talk to LE....
if the issue in question was anything other than the tragic death of their child.
If my child had died in such a manner, I believe my first instinct would be to find out what the hell happened, and to fully cooperate with authorities in figuring that out.
My thoughts would not be centered on "protecting" or "advising" anyone who was involved. JMO MOO

ETA: (unless of course, I had something to hide) MOO

When a "like" is not enough.
Very well stated.

They left in very short order but had the presence of mind to file that lawsuit.
Within 24 hours of Chloe's death.
Never mind the professed compassion and love for S.A. --the person who killed their baby.
Mind boggling.

I can't wrap my head around this "investigation" either. I have relatives who are attorneys in Florida in large firms and the firms have an entire investigative team comprised of experienced people. And to conduct the re-enactment using a partner from the firm as a stand in for SA is beyond belief. I wonder what the budget was.

And yes, both parents know better and must realize the shortcomings of the job MW oversaw.

bbm
First bolded :
M.Winkleman doesn't strike me as much of a 'penny pincher'.
More like he was deliberately choosing a man who was smaller than step grandpa and without the beer belly.
So that it "appeared" there was no way a man could reach his arms or hands outside of that ship window.
Some would call that lying.

Second bolded :
It'd be interesting to know who contacted whom first.

Winkleman didn't just show up.
Either someone had him in mind -- or he was lucky enough to be reading the PR news feeds and called shortly after Chloe was dropped or thrown to her death.
Take your pick.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

Ordinarily, it should be a safe assumption that a 51 year old adult could keep a kid alive for 15 minutes. And just a bit of added info, there were 6 adults: 2 parents, 2 paternal grandparents and Anello & wife. 6 adults to watch 2 kids.

Wow. I didn't know 4 grandparents were on this cruise. And yet poor CW winds up with SA and is dead within 15 minutes. Even in the video before they get to the window, he's leaning down against a column. She's not even within arm's distance of him. Then he's lagging behind her a good 10 feet or more as she approaches the window. And he doesn't have the reaction time to grab her when she starts to fall out the window. She started to fall immediately, his hands were inches away. You reach out, grab clothes whatever. There is no reaction from him to grab her as I can tell from the video. And the entire family watches this video and supports him? Honestly if it was me and she fell I would be 5 seconds behind her. And I would have a very hard time forgiving anyone who did something so stupid and reckless. Wait until the eyewitness reports that he was playing a "game" with her and part of the game was he let her go for a split second not expecting her to panic or jerk and fall. Unforgivable.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

Honestly, anyone in LE will tell you to say or do as little as possible in such a circumstance. The more you say or do the more that can come back to bite you. Vagueness and inconsistency in statements or actions will, as we all know, be picked apart. It may sound cold but it’s good policy. And both KW and AW know this.

I think that kind of proves the point though - why would everyone in the family clam up unless they thought SA had done something possibly criminal? Refuse a breathalyzer?? Refuse to speak to LE? Is this really the behavior of an ENTIRE FAMILY whose daughter just fell out of a ship window? I could see if SA clammed up, but the entire family?? Why? The rest of the family wasn't even there when it happened, what could they possibly not want to tell LE? That SA had been drinking? That he had a mental illness or medical condition? Or were they literally thinking $$$ within hours of their child dying and don't do anything that could jeopardize a money grab? I don't know the answer but they irony is that they are really not hiding anything anyway. The ship has cameras everywhere. They have SA's medical records. And SA gave TV interviews!! It's all so bizarre it makes me mental lol.

 

[justice4allnow]

If my child had died in such a manner, I believe my first instinct would be to find out what the hell happened, and to fully cooperate with authorities in figuring that out.

Exactly, Stinalyn, I too would invoke my right to remind silent if I thought that I had done something wrong and could be arrested. However if I were trying to add an investigation like this one, I would do everything that I possibly could to assist. I just don't understand.

 

[MsMarple]

When a "like" is not enough.
Very well stated.

They left in very short order but had the presence of mind to file that lawsuit.
Within 24 hours of Chloe's death.
Never mind the professed compassion and love for S.A. --the person who killed their baby.
Mind boggling.


bbm
First bolded :
M.Winkleman doesn't strike me as much of a 'penny pincher'.
More like he was deliberately choosing a man who was smaller than step grandpa and without the beer belly.
So that it "appeared" there was no way a man could reach his arms or hands outside of that ship window.
Some would call that lying.

Second bolded :
It'd be interesting to know who contacted whom first.

Winkleman didn't just show up.
Either someone had him in mind -- or he was lucky enough to be reading the PR news feeds and called shortly after Chloe was dropped or thrown to her death.
Take your pick.

Part of my astonishment is that a partner of the firm did the stand in as opposed to say, an associate or clerk. Maybe he was the only person close to SA's height and build though I don't quite see that. What I mean is that partners usually have their own cases to deal with and wouldn't take precious time off to do such a re-enactment. MOO.

 

[they'll get you]

al66pine, you always go to heart of the matter. I felt the same way when I learned that neither Kim nor Alan would speak with LE after Chloe's tragic death, were they masking something..

They might have spoken with LE
Mum is reading or filling out paperwork and it could be her statement as it appears 2 cops standing there.