IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[borndem]

Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 3.pdf: Inaccuracy?
Not sure of possible significance, but imo there is a discrepancy btwn a photo and a line drawing of the windows. The line drawing moved the window-operating-hardware from left side of left window to the right side of right window.
Jmo and YMMV but I'll give photo more credence as accurately depicting ship's windows.
Does this line-drawing change move the hardware (further?) out of SA's line of vision as he approaches windows?
Inadvertent mistake, or intentional misdirection? IDK. Anyone?

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Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 3.pdf
Page 44: WINDOWS & FIXED GLASSM EASUREMENTS (FRONT)
Page 46: Both the line drawing/schematic & photo show six frames of windows, w 3 rows & 2 columns as well as the lower right side 'prison bar' window (or scupper or maint. hatch).
The window-operating hdw - a slider pull/ bar- is shown at different location in middle row windows.
Photo ------------- the pull-hdw is on right side of right window pane.
Line Drawing --- the pull hdw is on left side of left window pane.

In a word, @al66pine, interesting. Thanks for finding! Much to ponder.

 

[borndem]

I think it's funny that MW is trying to persuade everyone that SA was physically unable of leaning out as far as we see him leaning out in the photographs. Like, whom are you going to believe, your lying eyes 0r a lawyer who stands to get a big fat contingency fee?

Agree. Someone in a straitjacket could lean out that far, IMO.

 

[MsMarple]

What’s amazing and equally horrifying to me, is the extremely short period of time he was “watching “ Chloe. And to think that in such a very small time frame, she was just gone.

How on earth does this kind of thing happen, that an 18 month old baby dies at the hand of a “caregiver” in such a short amount of time. This man has to have either some serious mental / cognitive issues, or he’s a cold hearted sadistic killer. That’s it... I can’t help it but that’s how I see it.

The whole thing is just too outrageously , incomprehensibly, ridiculously reckless , and with complete and utter disregard for human life. A BABYS life. Who does that? Morons, child abusers, and depraved killers... take your pick.
But I’m all ears, and appreciate all of your input. As it’s all JMO

Yep - SA had Chloe for about 14 minutes before she fell to her death. Amazing if you think about it.

I don't think he intended to harm her but man, how could any grandparent not treat a grandchild like a fragile little sparrow and make sure she is safe and secure in their care? It's beyond my ken.

 

[neesaki]

Yep - SA had Chloe for about 14 minutes before she fell to her death. Amazing if you think about it.

I don't think he intended to harm her but man, how could any grandparent not treat a grandchild like a fragile little sparrow and make sure she is safe and secure in their care? It's beyond my ken.

Exactly... if you saw how he grabbed her and hauled her up there to the window... it was like he was picking up a bag of potatoes. I mean... with all due respect, my God. What was he doing? Unimaginable and incomprehensible, IMO.

 

[WiseGuy]

Yep - SA had Chloe for about 14 minutes before she fell to her death. Amazing if you think about it.

I don't think he intended to harm her but man, how could any grandparent not treat a grandchild like a fragile little sparrow and make sure she is safe and secure in their care? It's beyond my ken.

Some folks even see pre-meditated murder. I won’t go to that extreme, but when I view the video, I do see evidence of “depraved indifference”, starting with his very disinterested “care” of Chloe during their walk from splash pad to window. After that it gets worse.

 

[Chikkamma]

As I’ve stated all along... Winkleman ALTERED the CCTV footage he showed to his carefully chosen reporters. He is a con-man.

“Notably, however, a national news organization reported that Plaintiffs’ counsel showed them video footage of the incident that was not in real-time, and believed it needed to correct its reporting. The video showed Mr. Anello looking out the window for a about a second (when in reality he looked out for eight seconds) and placing Chloe over railing for about 5 seconds (when in reality it was 34 seconds). See CBS This Morning, Grandfather charged in girl’s cruise ship death says he’s colorblind, calls court case “inconsequential”, CBS News (Nov. 26, 2019),https://www.cbsnews.com/video/grand...rblind-calls-court-case-inconsequential/(last visited Jan. 27, 2020).”

On a related note, how did CBS come to learn in the first place that the video they were shown was altered? (this was before the real-time video was made public). If it was RCCL who set the record straight for CBS, good for them!

 

[they'll get you]

I'm guessing that they keep referring to him as "elderly" in order to elicit sympathy and pity for him, as in "that poor, poor old man lost his granddaughter and is now being unfairly persecuted".

yes he is feeble and, looking at the doll, Chloe was old enough to know better.
What BS!

 

[Lawsmygame2]

For someone who is supposedly so “well versed” in his profession, IMO MW doesn’t look like a very good attorney in this case. It seems he is willing to do just about anything (lying, manufacturing false re-enactment, misrepresenting cases in his briefs to the court, providing a false version of video to news persons etc) just to win a case. I think he should be reprimanded or disbarred.

 

[neesaki]

For someone who is supposedly so “well versed” in his profession, IMO MW doesn’t look like a very good attorney in this case. It seems he is willing to do just about anything (lying, manufacturing false re-enactment, misrepresenting cases in his briefs to the court, providing a false version of video to news persons etc) just to win a case. I think he should be reprimanded or disbarred.

Believe me, I’m on the same page.

 

[borndem]

Welcome to Websleuths,
HRH Phoebe Cat !!​

 

[Pigey]

Yep - SA had Chloe for about 14 minutes before she fell to her death. Amazing if you think about it.

I don't think he intended to harm her but man, how could any grandparent not treat a grandchild like a fragile little sparrow and make sure she is safe and secure in their care? It's beyond my ken.

Why didn't SA hold her hand and guide her through the people milling around? 18 months is such a tender age, a walkabout baby.

 

[BeachSky]

For someone who is supposedly so “well versed” in his profession, IMO MW doesn’t look like a very good attorney in this case. It seems he is willing to do just about anything (lying, manufacturing false re-enactment, misrepresenting cases in his briefs to the court, providing a false version of video to news persons etc) just to win a case. I think he should be reprimanded or disbarred.

Absolutely agree!

 

[loveandhugs]

As I have posted previously, when this first came on the news I felt awful for the family and SA, but as more information came out, IMO I believe that this was planned, do not know why, but this was no accident. Watching SA during his television interview I could not understand how he could sit there and make excuses for why this little child lost her life. I would be blaming myself and would not be able to forgive myself, I would have to be under a doctor’s care because I would not be able to make it through each day let alone do a television interview.

as others have stated, this is about making money off of Chloe’s death, not about accepting responsibility and honoring her short life. If this was about Chloe or truly an accident, no one would be making excuses for what happened, but be warning the public about the dangers of holding a small child by an open window on a ship. All the excuses, lies and lawsuits make me wonder what is this family hiding. I still would not be able to get through a day if this had been my little girl. Sometimes I wonder if we care more about Chloe because we want to know what happened and why her life was over so quickly. This is just my opinion.

 

[al66pine]

Was SA Unaware of Toddler Squirm Factor?

....how he grabbed her and hauled her up there to the window.. like he was picking up a bag of potatoes....What was he doing? .

@neesaki sbm Yes, what? If SA had hauled up a sack of potatoes, that bag could have rested unharmed there for hours or days draped motionless over the rail, never dropping 100+ feet to dock. But SA seemed oblivious about having picked up an 18 m/o toddler capable of movement.

Is it possible, when picking her up that day, SA was simply ignorant about Chloe's ability to walk/toddle/ squirm/wiggle/twist? Perhaps like a relative who had spent no time w her? Doubtful.
He held her on his lap (while she wore head/earphones) alongside Grandmother at sports arena,.
He held her at his waist/chest level, next to figure of big (Charlie Brown-like) head w helmet.
He kneeled/squatted/crouched next to Chloe standing in her Frozen blue dress w blue net skirt.
He was close to ground level w her as she hunted Easter eggs.
W ^ images of SA holding her in various positions, could he be unaware of the Squirm Factor?
Whether Chloe moved and caused him to lose grip or whether he lost grip for another reason, imo, either way seems like textbook example of Negligent Homicide.

 

[Safetybug]

I read somewhere that SA is just dating the CW’s grandmother. If true, not sure how that actually makes him the grandfather - except to add to the emotional spin of dubbing him an elderly grandfather. As if sympathy eclipses culpability.

As for his recklessness , SA admittedly leans forward, admits to releasing partial grip of her so he and she can lean further forward basically so they can bang-away ~ when he inevitably loses his grip. So, it all boils down to is he sat her on and past the railing. Railings act as a barrier and are never sanctioned to be sat on, stood on, or scaled, PERIOD!

As caregiver he couldn’t even keep her safe for 15 minutes. Ohh wait - he says “if there was some kind of warning we wouldn’t have been near it... if there was something that indicated a chance for that to be an opening the open window.”... oh wait add to that, “I’m colorblind, so I’ve been told” etc.

I say even common sense of a BLIND person could have deciphered that the window was open. Yet all SA can mantra is “just fix the window” I cannot figure out if he is in denial or a liar. Or worse.

 

[katydid23]

Hoping we find out by or at trial who signed the cruise documents and guest policies etc.... there is an attorney and a police officer in the group;, contractual law and signing agreements aren’t languages they can pretend ignorance of, right?

So not every adult boarding the ship needs to sign the guest policies?

Seems silly to have just one person in a 7 passenger group sign that they read it and agree. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I read somewhere that SA is just dating the CW’s grandmother. If true, not sure how that actually makes him the grandfather - except to add to the emotional spin of dubbing him an elderly grandfather. As if sympathy eclipses culpability.

As for his recklessness , SA admittedly leans forward, admits to releasing partial grip of her so he and she can lean further forward basically so they can bang-away ~ when he inevitably loses his grip. So, it all boils down to is he sat her on and past the railing. Railings act as a barrier and are never sanctioned to be sat on, stood on, or scaled, PERIOD!

As caregiver he couldn’t even keep her safe for 15 minutes. Ohh wait - he says “if there was some kind of warning we wouldn’t have been near it... if there was something that indicated a chance for that to be an opening the open window.”... oh wait add to that, “I’m colorblind, so I’ve been told” etc.

I say even common sense of a BLIND person could have deciphered that the window was open. Yet all SA can mantra is “just fix the window” I cannot figure out if he is in denial or a liar. Or worse.

Not only did he admit to leaning forward to bang on the glass, he admitted to lean forward, while right up behind the baby, to reach for and try to FIND the glass. That is sheer negligence. Criminal Negligence.

And WELCOME to WS...

 

[katydid23]

Due to the drowning of a child Winkleman was responsible of making cruise lines have lifeguards on cruise ships.

@ 3:21 there’s the Death on the High Seas Act.

I can actually agree with Wink there. I know that parents should be responsible for watching their kids. But there is a lot going on during a cruise, and kids can too easily end up at a pool and not being adequately watched. And way more kids drown in cruise ship pools than have ever fallen out of windows.

 

[katydid23]

I'm guessing that they keep referring to him as "elderly" in order to elicit sympathy and pity for him, as in "that poor, poor old man lost his granddaughter and is now being unfairly persecuted".

And there are a lot of retired folks on juries. So some might sympathise with the loss of a grandchild under one's care. I cannot imagine anything worse...

 

[sl222]

The issue with that theory is that SA followed CW over to the windows, not vice versa.

But what I found unusual is that CW was heading towards the window from far away from the windows. How would she know about them if they hadn't been pointed out to her from the pool area - and possibly with a suggestion to go look out the windows? (just a guess)

Also Chloe was following the unidentified man who was heading from the pool area to that window. SA stopped her and crouched down at the pillar/column for several seconds, until that same man returned from the window, passed right in front of CW and SA, and then CW and SA continued to the window.