IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[Kindred]

On the judge's ruling, is he saying that RCCL is denied on a technicality because they didnt officially incorporate the video by reference?

If so. Sheesh!

But we now get discovery, so there's that.

It seems the judge did leave that as an option for RCCL but didn’t he also rule that the plaintiffs had shown sufficient cause to move forward with the process?

Actually, I'm reading it as more of the court doesn't want to consider a summary judgment this early in the case.



I didn't see anything of the judge saying outright that the case actually has merit. Only that the Defendant's request fails to comply with rule 12 (b)(6)

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

Jaques is the go-to guy for all cruise ship cases on both sides.

He's done something like 2k? cases.

His CV is the first motion posted. Plus if you google his name and cruise ship, all his cases come up.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

Everything about the civil suit disgusts me. I don’t believe for an instant that it has anything to do with changing a ship’s flaws (which I don’t think is a truth anyway) but just a blatant money grab. Step Grandpa should end this mess by admitting his 100% fault and to try to make amends for his wrongdoing.

There is absolutely ZERO, ZILCH, NADA chance that's going to happen, now or Ever.

 

[wildblue]

There is absolutely ZERO, ZILCH, NADA chance that's going to happen, now or Ever.

Every once in awhile, a person’s conscience will prevail, so I can hope.
That said, I hope RCC refiles to dismiss, if that’s a possibility, with changes to the filing based on today’s dismissal. I hope they win. My sympathies are with CW’s brother and any of the other grandparents not supporting SA.

jmo

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Every once in awhile, a person’s conscience will prevail, so I can hope.
That said, I hope RCC refiles to dismiss, if that’s a possibility, with changes to the filing based on today’s dismissal. I hope they win. My sympathies are with CW’s brother and any of the other grandparents not supporting SA.

jmo

I somehow don't think SA Has a conscience if he was willing to toss a baby out of a window for money. And not even consider maybe hitting someone on the ground. Or the psychological damage he has done to so many other people on and off that ship. He is evil, IMHO.

 

[oviedo]

Have cruised 10+ times. All my experience with RCCL is with my immediate family (wife & minor kids). Our first few cruises did inolve a printed paper version of the cruise ticket contract so both my wife and I signed our own and one of us signed taking responsibility for the kids. Since going electronic and completing all of the checkin process online ahead of time typically I check all of us in and select the confirm acceptance of cruise contract for your entire party option. I do not know how this option is affected for adults travelling together in the same party but not immediate family members of each other OR for adults with seperate cabins. Perhaps someone else has more recent experience with this.

We check in with the app and I accept for everyone in my reservation

 

[oviedo]

Engaging a Probate Atty? South Bend? Chicago?
@Lawnguylander1964 I know some ppl would feel uncomfortable discussing their probate case w anyone at all, esp someone they would randomly encounter around town. Altho that atty's offce is in Chicago, KSW & AW could not file this procedure in a Chicago IL court to try to keep their neighbors unaware. Probate jurisdiction is based on residence of the deceased, which was S.Bend/Granger IN. Being appt'ed as pers reps of Chloe's estate means some info, such as the final accounting w $ figures, is likely to be circulated, thru public record and/or gossip, around their town. IDK offhand of any way they could avoid publicity re probate case, if there is a settlement or award.

Some ppl are more uncomfortable about talking w local physician for annual exam than they would be the same w a dr. a couple hours drive away. Others stress about idea of discussing investments & $ info w a broker in their city and keep some or all their investment a/c's w a distant broker or brokerage.
And some ppl cringe about divulging info to attys, tax return preparers, physicians/med providers, and investment brokers, whether in the neighborhood or light years away. Others don't bat an eyelash at any of the above. A matter of personal feelings/attitudes. jmo.

BTW, "oogie"? Even UrbanDictionary.com did not help me w this.

I work with probate lawyers / the thing is they are almost always local to that state - because each state defines how probate works - an IL lawyer would need to be a practicing member of the IN bar - my point is you don’t need a Chicago probate lawyer to open an IN estate for a child with no assets to be probated IMO but you must open probate if you are pursuing a personal injury claim because the dead can’t sue - so I can only deduce that the family engaged an IL firm versed in this specific type of probate based on a recommendation from MW because he could not bring the suit against RCL until probate was opened and the parents were authorized to proceed as the PRs for CW - quite a lot to consider when you are also burying your baby IMO

 

[al66pine]

More from Blog re Case w Jaques as "Expert Witness." And in Wiegand Case?
"In this case, Costa Cruises argued that Mr. Jaques’s opinions were not based on a sound methodology, because he had failed to interview Ms. Higgs; 1 neither did he review her deposition, take any measurements of the incident area, mention any publications or experiments used to support his opinions, nor cite maritime safety standards with specificity. 2. Costa also contended that Mr. Jaques’s opinions about causation are unreliable because they presuppose that she tripped over a bucket, which is a disputed fact."

1. One thing about Wiegands v RCL: Jaques took measurements to beat the band.
2. For Wiegands, will Jaques' expert opinion:
--- Presuppose a reasonable person could not determine whether the window was open or closed?
--- Presuppose a reasonable person could determine whether the window was open or closed?
--- Presuppose SA could not determine whether window was open or closed?
--- Presuppose SA could determine whether window was open or closed?

^ from The Battle of Expert Witnesses in Cruise Ship Accident Claims - Aronfeld.com
Thanks again to @Lawnguylander1964 for post & link. ^

 

[In vino veritas]

MW was quoted as saying “We are very pleased with the court’s decision and look forward to getting to the merits of the case.”

RCL has issued no response to the judge’s decision.

I sincerely hope their continued restraint is indicative that they are secure in the “conclusiveness” of the discovery they have yet to present. Because...IMO... there is no “merit” to MW’s case.

 

[mheido67]

Actually, I'm reading it as more of the court doesn't want to consider a summary judgment this early in the case.

View attachment 230434

I didn't see anything of the judge saying outright that the case actually has merit. Only that the Defendant's request fails to comply with rule 12 (b)(6)

My bad. I was remembering something from the Marabella case write up that was included with the other documents.

 

[al66pine]

Probate.

I work with probate lawyers / the thing is they are almost always local to that state - because each state defines how probate works - an IL lawyer would need to be a practicing member of the IN bar - my point is you don’t need a Chicago probate lawyer to open an IN estate for a child with no assets to be probated IMO but you must open probate if you are pursuing a personal injury claim because the dead can’t sue - so I can only deduce that the family engaged an IL firm versed in this specific type of probate based on a recommendation from MW because he could not bring the suit against RCL until probate was opened and the parents were authorized to proceed as the PRs for CW - quite a lot to consider when you are also burying your baby IMO

@oviedo bbm Glad you & others w experience in these matters share on thread.
Per Martindale Hubbell, linked in my earlier post, Polansky is member of IL bar. Per Indiana Bar website, updated July 2019, he is a non-resident member of IN bar. Mr. Ian Peter Polansky - Indiana State Bar Association. Not saying that he is or is not well versed in probate practice in IL or IN. IDK, but I do understand the necessity for opening a probate estate for this ^ purpose (in fact posted about the need for it ~ a few days ago. Also noted probate ct's jurisdiction is based on residence of deceased).
And agreeing w you that KSW & AW had a lot to consider in mid-July amid services for Chloe etc. Given the circumstances, starting a probate proceeding is undoubtedly excruciatingly painful for the parents.
Procedure for being appt'ed as pers reps is generally rather straightforward, esp'ly if uncontested, as this was. Ack'ing if/when there is an award, an atty versed in this specific type of probate would be quite helpful. Sorry if my earlier post gave an impression that suggested otherwise.
jmo.

 

[al66pine]

Who Signs to Ack Guest Conduct Policy?

We check in with the app and I accept for everyone in my reservation

Thanks, @oviedo, for responding to post about whether ea adult guest signs to ack GCP.

I wonder if other cruise lines handle the same way. Any other non-RCL cruisers? Thx in adv.

 

[Wehwalt]

What the judge said in the order is that he didn't think RCC should have filed photographic exhibits with the 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss, because that brought in outside evidence, not just paper arguments that the plaintiff's initial complaint was insufficient. I wouldn't say the lawyers did anything "wrong", in so many words; they gave it a shot and it didn't work. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying.

Accordingly, the defendant may now a) file a renewed motion to dismiss that doesn't rely on outside evidence or b) file an answer and grounds of defense. My guess would be b) because the judge sort of hinted there wasn't much point in a renewed motion.

A "summary judgment" motion would normally be submitted after discovery had closed, usually (though not always) by the defendant, saying that there is no question to be put before the jury, that judgment should be given as a matter of law for the moving side. There is also "partial summary judgment" which is just what it sounds like, that (for example) certain claims are dismissed but others allowed to proceed towards trial.

The net effect of the judge's order is to move the case forward a bit.

Re probate lawyer, my guess would be his firm was selected by MW, who needed the probate proceeding properly filed in order to start his case. MW is not going to want to wait while grief stricken parents interview courthouse lawyers in South Bend.

 

[Bethan]

Just think of all the "Ross Harris' "that will start taking cruises. SMH

I remember talk of plans for a family cruise, with a brother I believe, in the Ross Harris case.

Think it was put forward as a reason why RH didn’t plan to kill Cooper....because they had made plans for a future vacation with other family members.

Sorry I can’t provide a link, as it was at the time, I thought, just a minor detail I dismissed as a poor defence.

HOWEVER....when Chloe’s accident happened. I remembered this detail and I did start to wonder if it may have some relevance.

Maybe Ross Harris was just so impatient to rid himself of the little boy so decided on the ‘hot car death’

 

[JerseySleuth17]

How often does a man drop a baby out of an open window? Has there been any cases in the past of anything remotely similar?

He thought there was glass. Ridiculous foolish words to deflect blame. He is a very weak man unable to admit that he is entirely to blame. He is evidently being propped up by greed.

I think he is being propped up by the greed of the parents. When I watch that interview he did to me it appears that he totally knows he's at fault, and he can only muster up a half hearted finger pointing at the cruise ship. It doesn't even sound natural coming out of his mouth he sounds coached. He's asked point blank "do you think the cruise ship is to blame?" And he doesn't even answer "yes". I think he may have guilt at what he did and now has to go along with this ridiculous narrative because it is what the parents want. Who is more disgusting, the reckless fool that dropped her or the parents that are concocting a ridiculous blame game against a cruise line instead of the person that actually did the reckless act? But all of this doesn't change the fact that there is something seriously wrong with him, I keep going back to the video of him at the airport after CW died he does not have the affect of a man destroyed by grief, which is what I would be if I dropped my grandchild 11 stories and killed her. Even in the interview, no red eyes, real tears. It will all come out if this gets to a trial.

 

[Montrealaise]

I work with probate lawyers / the thing is they are almost always local to that state - because each state defines how probate works - an IL lawyer would need to be a practicing member of the IN bar - my point is you don’t need a Chicago probate lawyer to open an IN estate for a child with no assets to be probated IMO but you must open probate if you are pursuing a personal injury claim because the dead can’t sue - so I can only deduce that the family engaged an IL firm versed in this specific type of probate based on a recommendation from MW because he could not bring the suit against RCL until probate was opened and the parents were authorized to proceed as the PRs for CW - quite a lot to consider when you are also burying your baby IMO

The speed at which the parents did everything is mind-boggling. I understand that the statute of limitations is two years, so what's the big hurry?

 

[Safetybug]

The speed at which the parents did everything is mind-boggling. I understand that the statute of limitations is two years, so what's the big hurry?

...my opinion about the “big hurry“ is that the LE on the scene were in rapidly in process of leveling charges against SA ... so the family had to scramble use their speed-dial lawyer like they were “running to water with their heads on fire” to beat it all to the punch!!! And thus began their sympathy train for SA, against RCCL, literally anything that will offset SA’s charges and enhance their winnings. I predict that whether or not the family loses their case, there will be a Lifetime movie deal and a book tour and/or SA writing memoirs from jail. $$. Sadly $$ is eclipsing their grief for CW. imo.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

...my opinion about the “big hurry“ is that the LE on the scene were in rapidly in process of leveling charges against SA ... so the family had to scramble use their speed-dial lawyer like they were “running to water with their heads on fire” to beat it all to the punch!!! And thus began their sympathy train for SA, against RCCL, literally anything that will offset SA’s charges and enhance their winnings. I predict that whether or not the family loses their case, there will be a Lifetime movie deal and a book tour and/or SA writing memoirs from jail. $$. Sadly $$ is eclipsing their grief for CW. imo.

Even if that were true, wouldn't a better approach be omg it was a horrible accident, grandpa is inconsolable and distraught, rather than the cruise line should have had a sticker placed on open air? Even with the lawsuit there have been rumors the prosecutor would have just given SA probation he could serve in his home state. If your theory is true then the lawsuit may have had the opposite intended effect of forcing the prosecutor to look more closely at SA's actions and file charges because it has a financial impact on a cruise line that is a major revenue source for PR. My own opinion is the family saw dollar signs and is more interested in getting paid than even taking the time to mourn the loss of their daughter. Plenty of people unfortunately lose loved ones in reckless accidents that could have been avoided - few of them institute legal proceedings (open an estate for CW) on a far fetched theory 8 days after their loved one died. The family would have gotten more sympathy if SA was an inconsolable ball of mush rather than going on a tv interview and saying with a straight face "if only there had been a sign or some kind of warning..." GIVE. ME. A. BREAK. The "warning" was the railing you lifted CW over!! Argh.

 

[Montrealaise]

Even if that were true, wouldn't a better approach be omg it was a horrible accident, grandpa is inconsolable and distraught, rather than the cruise line should have had a sticker placed on open air? Even with the lawsuit there have been rumors the prosecutor would have just given SA probation he could serve in his home state. If your theory is true then the lawsuit may have had the opposite intended effect of forcing the prosecutor to look more closely at SA's actions and file charges because it has a financial impact on a cruise line that is a major revenue source for PR. My own opinion is the family saw dollar signs and is more interested in getting paid than even taking the time to mourn the loss of their daughter. Plenty of people unfortunately lose loved ones in reckless accidents that could have been avoided - few of them institute legal proceedings (open an estate for CW) on a far fetched theory 8 days after their loved one died. The family would have gotten more sympathy if SA was an inconsolable ball of mush rather than going on a tv interview and saying with a straight face "if only there had been a sign or some kind of warning..." GIVE. ME. A. BREAK. The "warning" was the railing you lifted CW over!! Argh.

The parents have made it clear that getting a big payday is more important to them mourning their daughter's death or getting justice for her. That is just so cynical.
In an earlier post I wondered what other family members thought about this, suing RCCL and publicly defending SA. I'm also curious about AW's and KW's coworkers; are they following the case closely, I wonder? I remember when the family returned from PR they were given a police escort from the airport and the police chief (AW's boss) issued a statement not only expressing sympathy for the family but also blaming the cruise line for the tragedy. I wonder whether he still feels the same way.

 

[justice4allnow]

When the tragedy first happened, there were a few people, including Winkleman, who speculated that Sam had only been charged because Puerto Rico was acquiescing to RCCL's wishes, in an effort to keep their business. Well RCCL has announced that they are relocating the base port of the Freedom of The Seas to Bermuda, which represents estimated losses of $ 13.5 million for the Island. Clearly there was no underhanded deal going on between RCCL and PR. There are a great number of fallacious statements that Winkleman has made over the months.

This information comes from El Vocera, a newspaper in PR: In November of last year, the executive director of the Authority for Public Private Partnerships, Fermín Fontanéz, warned that Royal Caribbean would cancel stops of its cruises on the island for the 2020-2021 season. This came after the president of the company, Michael Bayley, expressed his dissatisfaction with the management and "the little importance" that the government lent to the negotiations for the privatization of the San Juan docks."I don't think the decision was related to earthquakes or past demonstrations. In December the president of the company made it clear that he was upset with the government and then there were meetings with the government that nothing is known about. It's a business decision, "said the expert.

I hope that someone sues Winkleman for what may be libelous statements or that he is sanctioned by the Bar. He seems to just say whatever he wants. At worst, it's irresponsible but it could be illegal to spread deliberate misinformation. If not illegal, some of what he says has the appearance of being unethical.