IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #7

[al66pine]

Winkleman's Conflicting Stmts?
Dec 11, 2019 at link* about 9 or 10 min into vid, W states he knows Fr/Seas is supposed to go in for refurbishing shortly.
Early Jan. motion re inspection of ship, IIRC, W stated he had just received notice from RCL about then-impending Fr/Seas refurbishment, essentially saying it was short notice.

Yes, there's a difference between W saying he 'knows' & RCL giving actual legal notice, but....still.

* 'We all sit here broken': Family of girl who fell to her death prepares for court battle. presser in South Bend, IN, w family,

 

[JulieBEMT]

Winkleman's Conflicting Stmts?
Dec 11, 2019 at link* about 9 or 10 min into vid, W states he knows Fr/Seas is supposed to go in for refurbishing shortly.
Early Jan. motion re inspection of ship, IIRC, W stated he had just received notice from RCL about then-impending Fr/Seas refurbishment, essentially saying it was short notice.

Yes, there's a difference between W saying he 'knows' & RCL giving actual legal notice, but....still.

* 'We all sit here broken': Family of girl who fell to her death prepares for court battle. presser in South Bend, IN, w family,

And then there's the fact that this refurbishment schedule was already available online in early 2018: Royal Caribbean Drydock Refurbishments Schedule | CruiseMapper

 

[al66pine]

Responsibility for Toddler?

.... Adults traveling with small children on vacation should not need to stop at a bar in mid-day to get a first "cheers" drink. Their primary responsibility is the supervision and safety of the children. Alcohol contributes to supervisory neglect of children. JMO ...

@MyBelle bbm sbm The Wiegand family cruise group consisted of Chloe's parents plus four other adults.
Q1. Is it the responsibility of all six adults to supervise the toddler & keep her safe?
Should all six refrain from even a single drink to focus on toddler, maybe brother too?

Q2. Or is it the parents' responsibility supervise & keep her (& bro) safe, and if/when absent to choose like-minded, level headed adult(s) to act in their stead? Maybe a blanket agreement made pre-trip? Or intermittently on the spot, on flight, at boarding, etc. Or maybe all impromptu.

Q3. Do you think KSW, AW, and/or SA had alcohol that day? Not asking for 'proof' just your thoughts.
If so, to the point of impairing their judgment about their responsibilities? Your thoughts?

 

[MsMarple]

BBM. That is your opinion, not fact. Adults traveling with small children on vacation should not need to stop at a bar in mid-day to get a first "cheers" drink. Their primary responsibility is the supervision and safety of the children. Alcohol contributes to supervisory neglect of children. There is absolutely no proof in this case the grandfather had consumed alcohol.

JMO

RBBM
And we saw how well that worked out.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

Surely with all of the animal lovers here, some can relate to this. Big ol’ goofy hunting dog. Watch the complete and total change in stance, body language and focused energy when locking onto a scent.

See, that’s one of the things that just keeps nagging at me about the video.

SA is just loafing along, ever so much out of reach of little Chloe. To me, it just seems like his movements and energy change completely once they get to the window. That one quick movement from floor to on/beyond guardrail. What I am able to see (laptop dead and still on dinky iPad) is fast, purposeful and coordinated. Not the movements I associate with an impaired person.

Apologies to all dogs everywhere for even mentioning them in the same post as SA.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

BBM. That is your opinion, not fact. Adults traveling with small children on vacation should not need to stop at a bar in mid-day to get a first "cheers" drink. Their primary responsibility is the supervision and safety of the children. Alcohol contributes to supervisory neglect of children. There is absolutely no proof in this case the grandfather had consumed alcohol.

JMO

Double-edged sword JMO just like the alleged “color blindness.” Since breathalyzer refused and blood work not performed (warrant required as I understand it) SA cannot claim chemical impairment.

JMO I believe he knew exactly what he was doing. Which is even more horrifying to me...

 

[neesaki]

Surely with all of the animal lovers here, some can relate to this. Big ol’ goofy hunting dog. Watch the complete and total change in stance, body language and focused energy when locking onto a scent.

See, that’s one of the things that just keeps nagging at me about the video.

SA is just loafing along, ever so much out of reach of little Chloe. To me, it just seems like his movements and energy change completely once they get to the window. That one quick movement from floor to on/beyond guardrail. What I am able to see (laptop dead and still on dinky iPad) is fast, purposeful and coordinated. Not the movements I associate with an impaired person.

Apologies to all dogs everywhere for even mentioning them in the same post as SA.

Excellent point, and ITA. His movements... first looking out the window and appearing to check out the pier, then quickly picking up Chloe, up then out to the edge or was it the open air outside the ship ... were without hesitation, and instead appeared to be very deliberate. He really didn’t appear to be impaired to me though I’m sure it’s possible he was.

One other thing, I got the impression that he had no time to waste... it was like up, over, out and down. Almost as though it was planned, IYKWIM. Well, it was all over in less than a minute.
It’s so very hard for me to comprehend how anyone could do what that man did to Chloe. Horrifying and unfathomable.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

*snipped by me for emphasis*

One other thing, I got the impression that he had no time to waste... it was like up, over, out and down. Almost as though it was planned, IYKWIM. Well, it was all over in less than a minute.

'We all sit here broken': Family of girl who fell to her death prepares for court battle
MW mentions in press conference 7:21 re: damages in relation to the “accident” on high seas vs in port in PR and “fortuitous.”

As for KSW, for those who have not watched this in its entirety (and please do so, it is well worth the time):
3:51 “misdemeanor charge against Sam”
4:20 speaks of not wanting Chloe’s legacy to be about court cases

 

[JerseySleuth17]

If you watch the CCTV video shot from behind, in the few seconds before CW falls you see SA's right arm come up and his head turned slightly to the right side. I think this tracks eyewitness accounts that he may have been getting his camera to take a picture. At this point, he's only holding CW with one hand b/c the other hand is doing something else. CW leans forward and out she falls. This explains his lack of reaction - he wasn't even paying attention let alone had the reflexes to stop her fall. But when you take into account that he KNEW the window was open, and he is casually holding a toddler up in front of an open window 11 stories up with one hand.... the lack of judgment is astonishing, and the family's continued support of him is mind boggling.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

If you watch the CCTV video shot from behind, in the few seconds before CW falls you see SA's right arm come up and his head turned slightly to the right side. I think this tracks eyewitness accounts that he may have been getting his camera to take a picture. At this point, he's only holding CW with one hand b/c the other hand is doing something else. CW leans forward and out she falls. This explains his lack of reaction - he wasn't even paying attention let alone had the reflexes to stop her fall. But when you take into account that he KNEW the window was open, and he is casually holding a toddler up in front of an open window 11 stories up with one hand.... the lack of judgment is astonishing, and the family's continued support of him is mind boggling.

It could have been like one of those fatal selfies except it wasn't the picture taker who fell.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

It could have been like one of those fatal selfies except it wasn't the picture taker who fell.

What is so upsetting is the family's staunch defense of SA who would "never" put CW in danger. Except that's exactly what he did. Why is another question but I think the truth will come out eventually.

 

[Safetybug]

If you watch the CCTV video shot from behind, in the few seconds before CW falls you see SA's right arm come up and his head turned slightly to the right side. I think this tracks eyewitness accounts that he may have been getting his camera to take a picture. At this point, he's only holding CW with one hand b/c the other hand is doing something else. CW leans forward and out she falls. This explains his lack of reaction - he wasn't even paying attention let alone had the reflexes to stop her fall. But when you take into account that he KNEW the window was open, and he is casually holding a toddler up in front of an open window 11 stories up with one hand.... the lack of judgment is astonishing, and the family's continued support of him is mind boggling.

bingo!...SA seems more concerned for a dropped camera, we know he lunged to the floor as opposed to reaching for CW... perhaps a last ditch effort to delete any selfie evidence before others ran over?!

 

[Area52]

I disagree. RCCL has had plenty of bad publicity to damage its reputation especially among senior citizens and their families who absolutely will take note.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article227305689.html

The Judge in this case ordered RCCL to turn over ALL video in 5 days and that deadline has now passed. If the video wasn't helpful to the Plaintiff, RCCL would have turned it over a long time ago. The Plaintiff also had the foresight to do a reenactment of how RCCL claimed it happened: grandfather leaned far out the window and dangled the child. The reenactment proved it would be physically impossible based on distances and angle of window and height of the grandfather.

JMO

Bloomberg also states that "personal injury cases against the three biggest cruise lines – Carnival, Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd., and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings – accounted for 78 to 87 percent of all federal litigation they faced over the last five years, according to the data which it collected.


Bloomberg explains that the lawsuits "often involve slip-and-fall claims, but recent complaints also

​

allege serious illnesses and injuries worsened by shipboard medical decisions."

Lawsuits Against Miami-Based Cruise Lines: Carnival, Norwegian and Royal Caribbean | Cruise Law

Not quite sure where you are getting this information about RCCL damaging their reputation with seniors and families. Do you have a link for that?
Also regarding the Bloomberg article about lawsuits and recent complaints about illness and injuries worsened by shipboard medical decisions... what does this have to do with this case. The medical staff didn't harm Chloe. SA did. I'm trying to figure out the relevance in your posts, or if they are only to cause an argument. Please let us know .MOO

 

[Area52]

I disagree. RCCL has had plenty of bad publicity to damage its reputation especially among senior citizens and their families who absolutely will take note.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article227305689.html

The Judge in this case ordered RCCL to turn over ALL video in 5 days and that deadline has now passed. If the video wasn't helpful to the Plaintiff, RCCL would have turned it over a long time ago. The Plaintiff also had the foresight to do a reenactment of how RCCL claimed it happened: grandfather leaned far out the window and dangled the child. The reenactment proved it would be physically impossible based on distances and angle of window and height of the grandfather.

JMO

Bloomberg also states that "personal injury cases against the three biggest cruise lines – Carnival, Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd., and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings – accounted for 78 to 87 percent of all federal litigation they faced over the last five years, according to the data which it collected.


Bloomberg explains that the lawsuits "often involve slip-and-fall claims, but recent complaints also

​

allege serious illnesses and injuries worsened by shipboard medical decisions."

From the same article!!!!!

Lawsuits Against Miami-Based Cruise Lines: Carnival, Norwegian and Royal Caribbean | Cruise Law News

Although the article suggests that litigation against cruise lines is on the rise compared to the last two years, the fact of the matter is that lawsuits filed against the cruise industry have dropped off substantially compared to 15 years ago.

 

[neesaki]

If you watch the CCTV video shot from behind, in the few seconds before CW falls you see SA's right arm come up and his head turned slightly to the right side. I think this tracks eyewitness accounts that he may have been getting his camera to take a picture. At this point, he's only holding CW with one hand b/c the other hand is doing something else. CW leans forward and out she falls. This explains his lack of reaction - he wasn't even paying attention let alone had the reflexes to stop her fall. But when you take into account that he KNEW the window was open, and he is casually holding a toddler up in front of an open window 11 stories up with one hand.... the lack of judgment is astonishing, and the family's continued support of him is mind boggling.

Good catch, his hand does raise up and there does appear to be something in it. Wow, SMH.

Something else I just noticed, the window that's open has several inches still exposed, apparently this is how it's designed, to not be 100 % open. Through that small section of glass, SA's head can be seen on the other side of it, i.e. .... his head can totally be seen OUTSIDE that window. This is right before he shifts her over from his right arm to his left. I have never noticed that before! Absolutely mind boggling, the propoganda that MW and fam have been trying to sell, and it's nothing but lies.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

Good catch, his hand does raise up and there does appear to be something in it. Wow, SMH.

Something else I just noticed, the window that's open has several inches still exposed, apparently this is how it's designed, to not be 100 % open. Through that small section of glass, SA's head can be seen on the other side of it, i.e. .... his head can totally be seen OUTSIDE that window. This is right before he shifts her over from his right arm to his left. I have never noticed that before! Absolutely mind boggling, the propoganda that MW and fam have been trying to sell, and it's nothing but lies.

I think I see what you are referring to...he leans out the window and you can see his head on the OTHER side (outside) through the small section of glass? You would only be able to see this if his head was on the other side of the window. Wow. There goes the "I thought the window was closed" excuse, which we all knew was a lie from the start.

 

[Daisy Chain]

So there are so many threads to read on this case.
Can anyone give a general consensus of what everyones opinions are?

 

[neesaki]

I think I see what you are referring to...he leans out the window and you can see his head on the OTHER side (outside) through the small section of glass? You would only be able to see this if his head was on the other side of the window. Wow. There goes the "I thought the window was closed" excuse, which we all knew was a lie from the start.

Exactly! I’m not the only one that sees this am I? Because it’s quite clear to me. Does anyone know how to upload a screenshot? I know how to take one but that’s it, sometimes I can’t find it after I take it. TIA

 

[neesaki]

So there are so many threads to read on this case.
Can anyone give a general consensus of what everyones opinions are?

Short and sweet... That the GF, Sam Anello, is guilty of negligent homicide if not worse.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Short and sweet... That the GF, Sam Anello, is guilty of negligent homicide if not worse.

BBM My vote is for "WORSE".