Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Killers use the knives of the home because it prevents any of their own weapons from being tied to them.

Not the case in pen and paper because your handwriting will incriminate you more than the style of paper and pen you use. That's why the old cut and paste letters is so popular in kidnapping.


It's not a matter of having pen and paper it's the matter of planning your action and coming up with a letter that leaves no evidence in a place that you feel safe. The Ramsey house is not a safe place...because someone like the housemaid or JAR could come back at any moment. Hell the Ramsey's could leave the party at any moment. Plus why do you need to enter the house when nobody is there when you have no problem with people being in the house while killing her?

Not really. They have to have a known sample to connect it. until they match the DNA they can not test the handwriting.

They could have had a practice note that they brought with them and then wrote it there.

 

[THE BUNK]

Not really. They have to have a known sample to connect it. until they match the DNA they can not test the handwriting.

They could have had a practice note that they brought with them and then wrote it there.

It's not the police recognizing it, It's the Ramsey's recognizing the handwriting and saying to the police "Hey this looks just like______'s handwriting!" That's the big risk the intruder has!

Why would you re-write the practice note in the house if you just wrote the daft in your home? Wait till you've finished the practice note, then go to the job. Why would he rush this, when he has to wait for so long for the Ramsey's to come home? or for that matter why does he have to do this on the 26th? Wait a while come up with a better note and a better plan THEN commit your crime!

Also why could he not write this letter from his car and use typing paper and a pencil while he waits for the Ramsey's to come home and turn out the lights???


Unless of course, you believe your criminal is a complete amateur and never has done a crime before or since.

 

[THE BUNK]

An important thing to remember here for the intruder.

The person the intruder has to fear most is John Ramsey.John Ramsey can find him quicker than the police can.

 

[Mama2JML]

He would have to BE one of their circle of friends in order to have this level of knowledge of the house and family. I would argue he would have to be at the Fleet White level of friendship to know this much.

The only reason for him to enter the house before the Ramsey's arrive is to write the ransom letter. That's it. If he has it in his mind that he is willing to risk running into the Ramsey's then he can wait till they get back to commit the break-in. There is no logic advantage he has to breaking into the house earlier than he needs to.

I disagree.

 

[THE BUNK]

I disagree.

For what reason? Wouldn't this make your search easier since your suspect list is now limited to the people within the Ramsey's circle of friends?

You are interested in finding the killer as much as I am, no?

 

[THE BUNK]

The only reason for him to enter the house before the Ramsey's arrive is to write the ransom letter. That's it. If he has it in his mind that he is willing to risk running into the Ramsey's then he can wait till they get back to commit the break-in. There is no logic advantage he has to breaking into the house earlier than he needs to.

What other reason other than to write the ransom note beforehand could the killer have to enter the house early? What other task did he have to accomplish that couldn't be done outside of the house?

 

[2 percent]

a stranger intruder couldn't know if other family members were staying over that night in beds right close to JB's room or IN JB's room: JAR or gramma/grampa. or one of BR's or JB's friends. IIRC everyone close enough to know that info was cleared?

I've always said if an IDI, Christmas was a weird time to pick! People's schedules are messed up. You can't predict who will be home and when and if the neighbors are going to be home and noticing things like strange people and cars in the neighborhood. I guess it's possible someone who knew their schedule could be confident of their timeline but that's as far as I'll go.

 

[Tawny]

If IDI, then he had to be close enough to the family to know they kept their pens in the holder in the butler's pantry, rather than in a kitchen drawer like is most common.

If you broke into my home, you wouldn't know where I keep my pens. They aren't in a "normal" spot. My closest friends and family do not know where I keep them and have to ask.

UNLESS, the intruder had hours to comb the entire downstairs, which also indicates someone close enough to the family to be aware of their plans that Christmas, and likely aware of when they were due to return. If he had hours, though, why is there no other evidence of rummaging through drawers? Was he fastidious enough that he put everything back where it belonged, rather than leaving things strewn everywhere as with a "normal" break in and rummaging?

Are there any other break ins in the Boulder area around this time that involved a burglary or other such type of rummaging in which the intruder put things back where they found them?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If IDI, then he had to be close enough to the family to know they kept their pens in the holder in the butler's pantry, rather than in a kitchen drawer like is most common.

If you broke into my home, you wouldn't know where I keep my pens. They aren't in a "normal" spot. My closest friends and family do not know where I keep them and have to ask.

UNLESS, the intruder had hours to comb the entire downstairs, which also indicates someone close enough to the family to be aware of their plans that Christmas, and likely aware of when they were due to return. If he had hours, though, why is there no other evidence of rummaging through drawers? Was he fastidious enough that he put everything back where it belonged, rather than leaving things strewn everywhere as with a "normal" break in and rummaging?

Are there any other break ins in the Boulder area around this time that involved a burglary or other such type of rummaging in which the intruder put things back where they found them?

No, Not really.. All they had to do was root around. And look.

 

[Tawny]

Right, which tells me they knew they had plenty of time, which leads me to believe if IDI, then it was someone close enough to know what time they were scheduled to return.

Still risky, of course, since plans can change in the blink of an eye, especially with children involved. Kid gets sick, they come home unexpected, intruder is caught.

Small foreign faction with someone watching the Ramsey's movements, relaying back to the intruder?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Right, which tells me they knew they had plenty of time, which leads me to believe if IDI, then it was someone close enough to know what time they were scheduled to return.

Still risky, of course, since plans can change in the blink of an eye, especially with children involved. Kid gets sick, they come home unexpected, intruder is caught.

Small foreign faction with someone watching the Ramsey's movements, relaying back to the intruder?

It is not that hard. They know they are going to a party, They get everything in order and wait. Seems easy

 

[Tawny]

I'm trying to help ferret out who could be the intruder.

They knew they were going to a party, who do we know of that wasn't at the party but could have known the Ramsey's would be at that party?

Waiting in the home while the R's are at the party eliminates everyone who was AT the party, right?

 

[Mama2JML]

For what reason?

You said:

"He would have to BE one of their circle of friends in order to have this level of knowledge of the house and family. I would argue he would have to be at the Fleet White level of friendship to know this much." ​

What level of knowledge? How much is "this much"? I don't agree that the perp would have to be in the Ramseys immediate cirlce, and I don't believe it's likely he was "close" to the Ramseys at all.

"The only reason for him to enter the house before the Ramsey's arrive is to write the ransom letter. That's it. If he has it in his mind that he is willing to risk running into the Ramsey's then he can wait till they get back to commit the break-in. There is no logic advantage he has to breaking into the house earlier than he needs to."​

Logic? Are you able to rationalize many elements of this case? These weren't the actions of a sensible, logical mind...

 

[Anti-K]

They did. The basement window that John himself explained was broken and unlocked.

He may have said so after the fact, but he did not do so when the police arrived that morning. Instead, he told them that all the doors were locked.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

Also consider the lack of profanity in the letter. Something an office worker would be used to.

A police officer would have done a better job of not leaving evidence. He especially would not have attacked her in the house.

At the very least the letter writer is a white collar worker. Especially considering he knows so much about John Ramsey.

I was trying to show that there is a wide range of occupations that require a person to write.

Why do you think a police officer would have done a better job of not leaving evidence when virtually all RDI claim that there is no intruder evidence? How could someone do a better job than that?

I think what the killer supposedly knew about Ramsey has been exaggerated.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

A short note is a problem with RDI, because the money collection is something that has to occur. Your assuming that the body was meant to be found in the home. If the original plan was for the body to be gone and no call has occurred the money collection is a process that will have to occur since it was mentioned in the first paragraph.

You also have to realize that most of the non-criminal world has no idea how long a ransom not is supposed to be. They probably would have thought too short a ransom note would be more suspicious.

Steve Jobs was a brilliant man. That doesn't mean I want him planning a bank robbery.
John Ramsey was a smart man. Doesn't mean he's good at covering up a crime.
Not many people are like us who are versed in true crime stories. Many people have no idea the basics of committing a crime.

The note is fake.

Everyone knows how to write a ransom note; it’s not rocket science.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

This is kind of what makes me pause as well. If RDI why not just write a typical "ransom note" "We have your child....we will call at 10 am " in short obscure sentences. This shows the person had a lot of time to write which could mean they were in the house the whole time.

Oooooon the other hand, as a person who is a long winded writer myself, I can look at Patsy's Christmas Letters and think "This is a person who doesn't jot off a "Merry Christmas from the Ramseys" but writes out, at length, lots of details" So this matches her style of "writing letters." Just an idea.

If RDI, there would be no note because the note contradicts the body in the house. If RDI, the Ramseys would require an “explanation” compatible with that.
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Some think the killer entered the house while the Ramseys were out and that he spent hours waiting and that he wrote the note during this time. Some think he removed the notepad on a previous occasion, composed the note at his leisure off-site and then returned the note with pad on the night of the murder, some think that he composed the note off-site and simply copied it into the Ramsey notepad one he was inside the house; etc.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

2. Then they would be at the mercy of forensics. If the forensics prove she could not have died that way. Then the Ramsey's are lying and their is no other suspect.

3. Lies with no evidence to back them up.

4. There are no lawyers with them in the few minutes since she was murdered. They have to make a decision NOW on what to do. Any layman is going to realize that someone that was bashed in the head is going to look different than someone that fell down the stars. Especially considering none of her other body parts would be broken or bruised...just her Head amazingly. They are also going to wonder why their is no blood at the bottom of the stairs. Which becomes her murder scene.

5. Police could easily theorize that a pedophile who had easy access to her a few months ago, lost access to her recently. With that access stopped, he had to resort to breaking into her home and molesting her for the last time.

6. Unfortunately they know have to lie after the fact. And even worse have to remember what they were supposed to have done during that time. And much worse...Burke has to be interviewed since they can't say that he was asleep at the time! Sure you can trust Patsy to lie, but can you trust Burke to lie for you.

7. They have until the morning only. Once the morning arrives. Calls occur, neighbors start seeing things. Actions that haven't been taken start coming into play. The plan becomes much more riskier if you extend the deadline.

8. You do realize in this scenario that the person she is saying this is a police detective and more than likely paired with an experience child psychologist and social worker? Whether she's lying, delusional or mistaken, the detective is going to ask questions and match the evidence up. Part of which is the story of led up to her getting hit which will be more than enough for them to convict. Who's the court going to believe? A wicked mother and father who conspired to kill their daughter. Or an innocent angel of girl crying and sobbing as she recounts how her mother and father raped her.

BTW, why do you assume everyone knows the law and legal ramifications 5 minutes after they've just committed a murder? You know what wake your significant other at twelve minutes past one and tell them you've just committed a murder and see how well their cover-up plan is!!

Well, you throw her down the stairs so that there are matching injuries.

And, it doesn’t matter if forensics would have found them out (how would they know that? Why would they think that? Other than being dead, or dying, the victim would have looked fine with no visible evidence of the blow). At least, in this sort of scenario – a staged accident – the scope and degree of forensics is almost nonexistent when compared to the usual RDI scenario.

Was the head blow an accident, cuz people don’t stage murders to cover up accidents. They might stage an accident to cover up a murder, but it is out of the frying pan and into the fire to do the former.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

Especially if he knows the Ramsey's. I imagine he would want to proof read it and narrow it down so that no evidence in certain phrases.

The Ramsey's only have to worry about the police matching the handwriting to either of them. The police would not know immediately if the language style matched either of them.

If RDI, the Ramseys would have to worry about linguistic/handwriting and materials used being traced back to them. Forensics would find them out.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

AK
The killer could have been a complete stranger. In fact, this is what I believe the evidence strongly suggests.

He could have “stalked” the Ramseys. He could have learned a fair bit simply by watching the house. He could have entered it days or weeks ahead of time. He could have entered it while the Ramseys were out during the day and spent hours poking around.

He didn’t need to know any of the things that many RDI seem to believe.
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AK