Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[Mama2JML]

Q: Did the intruder plan to commit a crime in a dark house but didn't bring his/her own flashlight? He/she just figured he/she would find one there?

We don't know that a flashlight was used at all. We know the killer used a pad of paper, and likely a pen and paintbrush, belonging to the Ramseys. The cord, the tape, the stun gun, the rope, animal hairs, fibers, shoe prints and more remain unsourced. Until the case is solved, or until more information is released, much remains unknown.


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[tovarisch]

We don't know that a flashlight was used at all. We know the killer used a pad of paper, and likely a pen and paintbrush, belonging to the Ramseys. The cord, the tape, the stun gun, the rope, animal hairs, fibers, shoe prints and more remain unsourced. Until the case is solved, or until more information is released, much remains unknown.


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I agree with Mama 2 that we don`t know that a FL was used. In the same time I cannot disregard the efforts of the police who saw importance of FL and it relevance to the crime and tried to source the FL, every officer on the crime scene had been questioned if it was theirs, everyone denied being the owner. The efforts made, fruitless we need to add, puts the FL in the same line of the material evidence pointing to the intruder, that you mentioned in your post above.

 

[cynic]

The Ramseys would later indicate that they may have owned a similar style of flashlight, and stated that it had been kept in a kitchen drawer. It had been given to them by John Andrew, but the fingerprint powder depicted in the photograph of the flashlight altered its appearance in such a way that it apparently threw off their identification of the gift.
FOREIGN FACTION, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenét? James Kolar, page 50

Excerpts from Patsy’s 1998 LE interview below:
0424
[SNIP]
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know what that is on
9 the ground around the door.
10 TOM HANEY: That is fingerprint powder that
11 is spread with a brush, powder to identify areas for
12 prints.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Did you find anything?
14 Were you all there?
15 TOM HANEY: Well, there is a lot things that
16 have been collected and processed, some of which
17 results are back on and some of which they are not or
18 not completely finished.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Definitely looks muffled here.
20 It is not neat, you know. (Inaudible).
[SNIP]

7 TOM HANEY: A black metal string light
8 type --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
10 TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you
11 recognize that?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that
13 John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or
14 something.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it
16 was he gave it to him or...
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no).
18 Although it looks kind of dirty there. I mean,
19 if I remember --
20 TOM HANEY: It looks different?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Describe how it looks
23 different.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the one that I
25 remember John having was pretty slick black, you
0514
1 know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or
2 something.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. That's been processed,
4 so it has been changed.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Other than that, do you
7 notice any differences from...
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: That's similar to the one
10 that John Andrew gave John?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-huh (yes).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And I think last time when
13 you were here on last April --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- you said where that was
16 stored.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
18 TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that
19 a little bit. Do you remember where it was
20 stored?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it
22 was in like one of those junk drawers there in
23 the bar area.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip
25 back to photo 380, right there.
0515
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those
2 drawers.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's
4 depicted in 380?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently
8 remember it being, you know, right in this
9 drawer.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And that's the wet bar that's
13 by the spiral staircase, right?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
[SNIP]

 

[tovarisch]

The Ramseys would later indicate that they may have owned a similar style of flashlight, and stated that it had been kept in a kitchen drawer. It had been given to them by John Andrew, but the fingerprint powder depicted in the photograph of the flashlight altered its appearance in such a way that it apparently threw off their identification of the gift.
FOREIGN FACTION, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenét? James Kolar, page 50

Excerpts from Patsy’s 1998 LE interview below:
0424
[SNIP]
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know what that is on
9 the ground around the door.
10 TOM HANEY: That is fingerprint powder that
11 is spread with a brush, powder to identify areas for
12 prints.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Did you find anything?
14 Were you all there?
15 TOM HANEY: Well, there is a lot things that
16 have been collected and processed, some of which
17 results are back on and some of which they are not or
18 not completely finished.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Definitely looks muffled here.
20 It is not neat, you know. (Inaudible).
[SNIP]

7 TOM HANEY: A black metal string light
8 type --
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
10 TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you
11 recognize that?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that
13 John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or
14 something.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it
16 was he gave it to him or...
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no).
18 Although it looks kind of dirty there. I mean,
19 if I remember --
20 TOM HANEY: It looks different?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Describe how it looks
23 different.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the one that I
25 remember John having was pretty slick black, you
0514
1 know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or
2 something.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. That's been processed,
4 so it has been changed.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Other than that, do you
7 notice any differences from...
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: That's similar to the one
10 that John Andrew gave John?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-huh (yes).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And I think last time when
13 you were here on last April --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- you said where that was
16 stored.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
18 TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that
19 a little bit. Do you remember where it was
20 stored?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it
22 was in like one of those junk drawers there in
23 the bar area.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip
25 back to photo 380, right there.
0515
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those
2 drawers.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's
4 depicted in 380?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently
8 remember it being, you know, right in this
9 drawer.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And that's the wet bar that's
13 by the spiral staircase, right?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
[SNIP]

Oh, yes, one more example. It has been discussed already. The methods of interrogation, not prohibited by law.. Here we go--- Is it yours FL ? I don`t know, mine looked shiny black. This one shabby/smudgy gray. Don`t worry, it had been processed... Oh, ok

How much longer we will relay on those dialogs as an ultimate truth?
Why not to show to Patsy NOT PROCESSED FL, but the original view as it was found on the counter ? Why ? Answer please, and you know what I know already--you do not have an answer.

 

[andreww]

The answer to your question was found on the kitchen counter top, the OLD WORN-OUT heavy duty flashlight with BRAND NEW batteries.
Brand new batteries tell us that the FL was brought to the crime scene that night for purposed of lighting up the dark space without failure.
For the FL being looking shabby and worn-out somebody needed to use it A LOT. The wear out a metal heavy duty object is hard , and takes years of use.
If you believe that people give an old worn-out flashlights as a gift, I do not buying it.
As well I`m not buying that 20 y.o. student could have 118,000 on his account to pay off the ransom. Why John`s older son was making statements not based on reality but rather imaginary, it`s a different question. We know nothing about his personality. We know that he used to talk a lot, and this is all we know. The question is why he was never had been asked additional questions how, when, why. For example-how come you have so much money, and what year you gave a FL to your parents, are you sure that one you gave because the one on the counter top was obviously not new.

The flashlight wasn't old and worn out. When shown a photo, Patsy claimed that it did appear to be the same one JAR had given JR but that it didn't look new like his did. It was explained that the flashlight had been processed and was covered in fingerprint dust. As the Rs flashlight wasn't in the drawer that it was kept, and I believe the drawer was left open, I think it's pretty safe to say the flashlight was Johns.


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[andreww]

We don't know that a flashlight was used at all. We know the killer used a pad of paper, and likely a pen and paintbrush, belonging to the Ramseys. The cord, the tape, the stun gun, the rope, animal hairs, fibers, shoe prints and more remain unsourced. Until the case is solved, or until more information is released, much remains unknown.


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One of the neighbors reported seeing moving light, consistent with a flashlight that night. So I'm pretty sure it was used during the crime.


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[Nick No Nora]

I would think that the first rule of breaking and entering at night would be to bring a flashlight. If the flashlight belonged to the Ramseys, it would mean that in an IDI scenario, the intruder(s) didn't bring their own flashlight, and just figured, hey, no problem, we can find one when we get there.

That seems extraordinarily inept. Although I suppose it is not impossible.

 

[tovarisch]

I`m glad personally that Patsy proved that her step-son Andrew was not lying about FL, that he did give to his father FL at some point of time. The heaviest feeling for me personally was to suspect the young man lying and I never allowed myself to believe he was lying. Thanks to Patsy when said Andrew did give the FL looking similar. They said it was dusted and processed. She said OK, it might be the one and the same . Why the investigators always adding mystery to this complicated case, I cannot comprehend, why they showed processed FL instead of original first photo of it on the counter, we will never know. Why they treated the FL as object originated not from household but brought from outside, and had spent significant amount of time trying to find the owner among the police officers, we will never know. Patsy said OK with hesitation after have been nicely led to the answer they wanted, but do we know without any doubt it was one and the same FL?

Does the FL make, if it was the one taken from the drawer, personally suspect Ramseys ? No. Otherwise. This dialog confirmed once again the innocents of Ramsey, their honesty with the investigators. If Ramsey were the people who changed the batteries in the FL wearing the gloves, would it be smarter not to recognize the FL, based on it`s different color and condition? But she said OK, and it tells volumes.

What this FL does, if it was one and the same, does to me personally. It tights the knot towards the very inner circle of Ramsey`s friends, and people with the frequent access to the house. Together with 118,000 and the rest, note pad, knowledge of the family events. It`s becoming so tight, it`s becoming too-much-ness and I cannot move in my thinking. One thing I`m sure -there was no random pedophile.

I personally would like to know more about very inner circle of the family. Was there any tutor on the horizon at any time closed to the crime ? Driver? I would appreciate if you people will share your knowledge of the very inner circle.

 

[andreww]

You have not answered. I was asking simple questions--- Why in the world--- his very private pension contribution came to his mind right after killing his daughter? It was not pre-planned, why he suddenly remembered his pension contribution, for the God sake, in this tragic moment? And instead of believable ransom request he requested his own pension contribution? Remember, that he could put half million, one or couple millions, and he would nave not need ever to pay it, it`s staging, right?


Why in the world to assure detectives he was the only one who knew, instead of saying he had told about the bonus to numerous people, hard to remember how many and who .

When you say, people, it was collateral amount he could withdraw, I sit my jaw down and try to comprehend what was said. Collateral? Where, what address he would take the brown paper bag with money if there was no kidnappers and he knew call would never come ? HE DID NOT need the collateral, if he was the killer.

I know, there is no answer from your side of view. Great amusement for real killers.

The idea was to give the impression that the author of the note actually knew something about John and his business. Nothing more nothing less, it just gives the note some credence.

 

[andreww]

I`m glad personally that Patsy proved that her step-son Andrew was not lying about FL, that he did give to his father FL at some point of time. The heaviest feeling for me personally was to suspect the young man lying and I never allowed myself to believe he was lying. Thanks to Patsy when said Andrew did give the FL looking similar. They said it was dusted and processed. She said OK, it might be the one and the same . Why the investigators always adding mystery to this complicated case, I cannot comprehend, why they showed processed FL instead of original first photo of it on the counter, we will never know. Why they treated the FL as object originated not from household but brought from outside, and had spent significant amount of time trying to find the owner among the police officers, we will never know. Patsy said OK with hesitation after have been nicely led to the answer they wanted, but do we know without any doubt it was one and the same FL?

Does the FL make, if it was the one taken from the drawer, personally suspect Ramseys ? No. Otherwise. This dialog confirmed once again the innocents of Ramsey, their honesty with the investigators. If Ramsey were the people who changed the batteries in the FL wearing the gloves, would it be smarter not to recognize the FL, based on it`s different color and condition? But she said OK, and it tells volumes.

What this FL does, if it was one and the same, does to me personally. It tights the knot towards the very inner circle of Ramsey`s friends, and people with the frequent access to the house. Together with 118,000 and the rest, note pad, knowledge of the family events. It`s becoming so tight, it`s becoming too-much-ness and I cannot move in my thinking. One thing I`m sure -there was no random pedophile.

I personally would like to know more about very inner circle of the family. Was there any tutor on the horizon at any time closed to the crime ? Driver? I would appreciate if you people will share your knowledge of the very inner circle.

The reason that all the officers were quizzed about the ownership of the flashlight is to prevent their legal team from trying to pass that evidence off as being left by the police. Patsy confirmed that they owned a similar flashlight. Was that flashlight ever found? No. Patsy stated where it would have been stored, and low and behold that is the only drawer left open. That shows that whoever used it knew exactly where it was kept and didn't have to search. Let me ask you if there is anybody on this planet that doesn't live with you that could walk in to your house and find your flashlight? Oh, and of course, we all make sure we wipe the batteries clean before we put them in right?

 

[andreww]

I would think that the first rule of breaking and entering at night would be to bring a flashlight. If the flashlight belonged to the Ramseys, it would mean that in an IDI scenario, the intruder(s) didn't bring their own flashlight, and just figured, hey, no problem, we can find one when we get there.

That seems extraordinarily inept. Although I suppose it is not impossible.

Exactly. What did these kidnappers actually bring? Duct tape? Maybe?

 

[midwest mama]

Not only did they know where to find the flashlight bur also the new batteries that were wiped clean as they were installed. Unless the intruder just happened to be carrying a box of spare batteries along with him?

 

[tovarisch]

Exactly. What did these kidnappers actually bring? Duct tape? Maybe?

I beg your pardon, duct tape? that`s the only got un answered in your opinion?
Than, share please the rest of your knowledge :
object inflicted the head blow
object left torture marks
whose hand wrote the ransom , proven
whose fluid in the one pants matching TDNA on the other pants
object inserted after death
blue fibers, tan fibers
nylon cord on the body and rope in the brown bag
shoe prints
cigarette buts and urine

Let me tell you the news. If you think that you have solved the mystery, I need to disappoint you, you have not .
You, RDI and us, IDI, and DA, and the GJ and the rest of the world are staying in front of the closed door. It`s not opening easily. It`s not opening at all. Don`t be like the officer French. If there is a door, it needs to be opened, does not matter how hard to find the key or how long it will take.

 

[midwest mama]

I beg your pardon, duct tape? that`s the only got un answered in your opinion?
Than, share please the rest of your knowledge :
object inflicted the head blow
object left torture marks
whose hand wrote the ransom , proven
whose fluid in the one pants matching TDNA on the other pants
object inserted after death
blue fibers, tan fibers
nylon cord on the body and rope in the brown bag
shoe prints
cigarette buts and urine

Let me tell you the news. If you think that you have solved the mystery, I need to disappoint you, you have not .
You, RDI and us, IDI, and DA, and the GJ and the rest of the world are staying in front of the closed door. It`s not opening easily. It`s not opening at all. Don`t be like the officer French. If there is a door, it needs to be opened, does not matter how hard to find the key or how long it will take.

It will not matter one day which theory turns out to be correct if a suspect is ever brought to trial and convicted. Those among us all, like you, tovarisch, are staying interested and won't let this case history fade away....that is at least one thing for us all to agree on.

Someone killed beautiful JBR and we cannot stop hoping that the "key" really is found one day.

 

[andreww]

I beg your pardon, duct tape? that`s the only got un answered in your opinion?
Than, share please the rest of your knowledge :
object inflicted the head blow
object left torture marks
whose hand wrote the ransom , proven
whose fluid in the one pants matching TDNA on the other pants
object inserted after death
blue fibers, tan fibers
nylon cord on the body and rope in the brown bag
shoe prints
cigarette buts and urine

Let me tell you the news. If you think that you have solved the mystery, I need to disappoint you, you have not .
You, RDI and us, IDI, and DA, and the GJ and the rest of the world are staying in front of the closed door. It`s not opening easily. It`s not opening at all. Don`t be like the officer French. If there is a door, it needs to be opened, does not matter how hard to find the key or how long it will take.

There is a ton of evidence that we don't know about, and as this is an IDI thread, I'm not going to even attempt to debunk your list. But what I will say is that there has only ever been one court action regarding this case, the Grand Jury hearing, and during that hearing it was recommended that the Ramsey's be indicted for among other things, covering up this crime. Now if in fact there was an intruder that night, why on earth would the Ramsey's attempt to cover it up??? Then refuse to cooperate with police??? There I absolutely no scenario where this would happen!


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[Mama2JML]

Not only did they know where to find the flashlight bur also the new batteries that were wiped clean as they were installed. Unless the intruder just happened to be carrying a box of spare batteries along with him?

BBM

AFAIK, this is pure speculation.

Early on, the RMN reported "no prints" were found on the batteries. This information has since been substantiated by many sources involved with the investigation. "No prints" really doesn't tell us much.

"…it means no prints of evidentiary value were preserved. It does not mean that the item was wiped down, or that no one had ever touched or handled it... …The term 'no prints' does not mean that there were no marks or smears - it means that if any markings were present, they lacked sufficient detail to be of evidentiary value. ("Fingerprints: What They Can & Cannot Do!," The Print, Volume 10, number 7, June 1994, pp. 1-3. Emphasis in original) Quote and source provided by Internet poster Anti-K."​

​

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682474/First Floor#TheFlashlight

 

[andreww]

I always wonder if that flashlight was the murder weapon? Think about it. It was John's flashlight, it would make more sense if they had found J&Ps prints on it. So why wipe it? My guess is it was wiped to remove any potential blood or hair from it.

But then again, those lights generally have a knurled finish for optimum grip. It could just be that there isn't a smooth enough surface to leave a print.


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[Mama2JML]

A photo of the flashlight in situ from FF:


(Kolar, 2012)

 

[andreww]

Interesting. There seems to be a lot more than pineapple and iced tea on that table.

 

[Mama2JML]

Interesting. There seems to be a lot more than pineapple and iced tea on that table.

The glass and bowl were on the table in the breakfast room.


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