Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[cynic]

Some perspective…

 

[midwest mama]

It strikes me odd that a snack of pineapple would be taken on the formal dining table. It seems more likely to me if the snack was put out after returning from the White's, it would have been given at the kitchen snack bar?

That flashlight there amidst the food provided by the Victim relief team looks so bizarre. Surely one of the volunteers would recall if that flashlight had been on the counter as they were putting food out. Or if there was no flashlight there and it got placed there during that morning by perhaps one of the officers.

Does anyone know if the volunteers testified for the GJ?

 

[andreww]

Geez this was a crime scene. Why the hell are they putting food next to evidence for???


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[tovarisch]

Learned today on internet that city of Boulder , Colorado has several military schools/courses for the troubled teens. Interesting that in the abbreviation of their names it has TC for training courses. I cannot copy, anybody could look.


The ransom always had military flare for me, personally, from the first words of John`s business as a reason for the crime, to the last word - victory. And all this jargon, cruelty through out the ransom.

Those troubled military trained teens, with their courses having TC in the abbreviation, they trouble me from now on. I do not ask to consider, just sharing my thoughts.

 

[midwest mama]

Geez this was a crime scene. Why the hell are they putting food next to evidence for???


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One of the reasons this crime is still unsolved. Too many prople doing too much that added contamination and confusion to an uncontrolled area.

 

[cynic]

Does anyone know if the volunteers testified for the GJ?

You’ve probably seen it, but as per the Rocky Mountain News, September 22, 1999, the two victim advocates, (Grace Morlock and Mary Lou Jedamus,) didn’t testify, but that cannot be regarded as comprehensive. It is the most detailed list of witnesses available, though.

Grand Jury witnesses:
Some of the people known to have testified before the Ramsey grand jury:

Mike Archuleta -- Private pilot who was scheduled to fly the Ramseys to their Michigan vacation home the day after Christmas 1996.
Linda Arndt -- Now-retired Boulder Police detective, the first investigator on the scene.
Dr. Francesco Beuf -- JonBenet's pediatrician.
Debbie Chavez -- Colorado Bureau of Investigation forensics expert.
John Douglas -- Former FBI criminal profiler hired by the Ramseys.
Michael Everett -- Among the first Boulder Police detectives assigned to the case.
John and Barbara Fernie -- Friends of the Ramseys who were summoned to the home after JonBenet was discovered missing.
Richard French -- One of the first Boulder patrol officers on the scene. He searched the house shortly after arriving, without locating JonBenet's body.
Ron Gosage -- Boulder Police detective working the case from its first days.
Pam Griffin -- Ramsey family friend and seamstress who assisted with JonBenet's beauty pageant costumes.
Jane Harmer -- Boulder Police detective involved in the case from the beginning.
George Herrera -- CBI fingerprints expert.
Linda Hoffmann-Pugh -- Ramseys' housekeeper at the time of JonBenet's death.
The Rev. Rol Hoverstock -- Minister from the Ramseys' church, summoned to the home in the first hours of JonBenet's disappearance.
Larry Mason -- Boulder Police sergeant removed from the case in its second week when he was wrongly accused of leaking information to the press.
Dr. John Meyer -- Boulder County coroner; he performed the autopsy on JonBenet.
Fred Patterson -- Boulder Police detective, among the first on the scene.
Carol Piirto -- Burke Ramsey's third-grade teacher.
Merv Pugh -- The husband of Linda Hoffmann-Pugh; he had done some work at the home a month before the murder.
Burke Ramsey -- JonBenet's brother, now 12, the only person other than her parents known to be in the house at the time she disappeared.
Lou Smit -- Retired Colorado Springs homicide detective who worked on the case for the district attorney's office.
Tom Trujillo -- A Boulder Police detective on the case since its earliest days.
Chet Ubowski -- Colorado Bureau of Investigation handwriting analyst who concluded that Patsy Ramsey may have written the ransom note linked to JonBenet's murder.
Barry Weiss -- Among the first Boulder patrol officers at the Ramsey home.
Fleet and Priscilla White -- Ramsey friends called to the house the morning of JonBenet's disappearance. Fleet was in the basement with John Ramsey when the child's body was found.
Tom Wickman -- The Boulder police detective sergeant who has supervised the investigation since the early days.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-ramsey-grand-jury.htm

 

[cynic]

That flashlight there amidst the food provided by the Victim relief team looks so bizarre. Surely one of the volunteers would recall if that flashlight had been on the counter as they were putting food out. Or if there was no flashlight there and it got placed there during that morning by perhaps one of the officers.

One of the reasons this crime is still unsolved. Too many prople doing too much that added contamination and confusion to an uncontrolled area.

Geez this was a crime scene. Why the hell are they putting food next to evidence for???

Some info about the actions of the advocates:
For example, they were not responsible for all the food on the counter.

By 6:45 two victim advocates from the police department had arrived, and the population inside the house continued to swell. Five minutes later, as a crime scene tech dusted for fingerprints, one of the advocates followed along, tidying up with a spray cleaner and a cloth. It was a terrible breach of procedure—possible trace evidence was being erased in the name of neatness.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation: Steve Thomas, page 21

When Detective Linda Arndt arrived at the Ramsey house at 8:10 A.M. with fellow detective Fred Patterson, she found a crowd. Friends of the child’s parents, Priscilla and Fleet White and Barbara and John Fernie, were there, along with the family’s minister, Reverend Rol Hoverstock. Patrol officer Rick French and crime scene investigator Barry Weiss were also there with two victim advocates, Mary Lou Jedamus and Grace Morlock. Detective Arndt learned that the Ramseys had another child, nine-year-old Burke, who had been taken to the Whites’ home by John Fernie and Fleet White.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 10-11

As the morning wore on, the victim advocates, Jedamus and Morlock, decided to go out and get bagels and fruit for everyone. With fewer people hovering around, Arndt noticed for the first time that Patsy and John rarely sat together.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 12

Just before 10:30 A.M., Detective Patterson ordered JonBenét’s bedroom to be sealed. Then he and Detective Arndt decided to clear the house of nonessential persons. The six other police officers would leave. Patterson himself would return to headquarters to brief Commander Eller. Arndt, the Ramseys, the Whites, the Fernies, Rev. Hoverstock, and the two victim advocates would stay. They were all to remain on the first floor, in the rear study—behind the kitchen, breakfast, and dining room area. Before Patterson left, he declared the rest of the house off-limits to everyone.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 14

After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 80

CSIs had wrapped up their processing of the first floor of the home. Victim advocates Grace Morlock and Mary Lou Jedamus had followed them around, cleaning up the mess left by fingerprint powder. Family friends were still in attendance, continuing their attempt to console Patsy Ramsey and had used the kitchen to prepare food and snacks for the group.
Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? James Kolar, pages 36-37

 

[cynic]

It strikes me odd that a snack of pineapple would be taken on the formal dining table. It seems more likely to me if the snack was put out after returning from the White's, it would have been given at the kitchen snack bar?

Both the kitchen counter and the table in the breakfast room were quite common locations for eating. The counter would have been closer, no doubt about that.
The breakfast room table did have the gingerbread houses - don’t know how much of a drawing card that was.
It is interesting to note the seating arrangement at the table that Patsy spoke of in her 1998 LE interview. If true, the placement of the bowl of pineapple and the glass with the tea bag would have been in close proximity to Patsy and Burke had they been seated at their “normal” locations.

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, there were a
2 lot of people in that house that morning fixing stuff.
3 Maybe some -- but I don't have tea like that with a tea
4 bag.
5 TOM HANEY: Which dining room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the breakfast room off
7 the kitchen. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Where would people sit? Is
9 that where you make your meals normally?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
11 TRIP DEMUTH: Which meals would you eat
12 there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, dinner usually. We
14 usually ate breakfast at the little counter at
15 different times in the kitchen.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. What about lunch?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Lunch would be there.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: On the counter in the kitchen,
19 what about snacks?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Counter.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: So you only ate dinner in this
22 room then?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have seats that
25 everybody gravitated to?
0472
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you tell us which seat?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: This is mine.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: The one on the right of the
5 table as you look at photo 415.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: This is John's.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: On the left of the table.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Burke's.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: Burke is the closest to us in
10 picture 415, and JonBenet sat in the chair furthest
11 from us in photo 415. That would be the chair closest
12 to the kitchen; right?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
15 TOM HANEY: As we get some close ups, more
16 close ups here in 416 and 417.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
18 TOM HANEY: You can see the items that you
19 identified earlier.
20 PATRICK BURKE: This is probably in the 12/29
21 roll.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: That is definitely a tea bag.
23 That is weird. Like I said, there were a lot of people
24 around that morning.
25 TOM HANEY: When was the last time you recall
0473
1 that table being cleaned off?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: After -- well, we would have
3 eaten pancakes together at that table on Christmas
4 morning. And then I would have cleaned the table up.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. In the course of having
6 the pancake breakfast, would a glass or a bowl like
7 that (inaudible).
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't tell what that
9 is.
10 TOM HANEY: We talked earlier this week about
11 lunch, could you recall what would have been on the
12 menu for lunch?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
14 TOM HANEY: Would it have been a bowl or a
15 glass?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Would you have eaten there for
18 lunch?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I think we ate a
20 late breakfast, because of -- I'm not sure we had lunch
21 that day because we probably, you know, do Christmas,
22 and then we had a big pancake breakfast, and then we
23 were going, you know, 4:00 or 5:00 to the White's for
24 dinner, so we probably didn't even have lunch.
25 TOM HANEY: Maybe, is that maybe why you
0474
1 didn't recall?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That is very likely why I
3 don't recall.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Somebody else did this,
6 because I would never put a spoon that big in a bowl
7 like that, and I can't tell what that is, whether that
8 is grits or apples or cereal or -- I can't tell what
9 that is.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Inside the bowl you are saying?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Inside the bowl.

 

[midwest mama]

Thanks for this diagram, cynic. Looking at the photo it appears the spoon was placed into the bowl by someone who would have been on the end where PR usually sat. IMO, if there was a somewhat full glass of hot tea water being taken to the table into which a teabag had already been placed or one was to be placed, if a child was carrying it, I don't think he/she could have also carried the bowl at the same time...two trips if it was only Burke. No fingerprints from JB so she most likely did not help carry.

If it was PR and BR both carrying the snacks, I can envision BR carrying the pineapple bowl since it would not have been hot to the touch. A mom would instinctively carry the hot vessel and have a child carry the cool one.

Something about the position of the spoon looks off...like it should be rotated a quarter turn in the bowl if someone would have "fed" someone a bite and then put the spoon back into the bowl. It looks to me like the spoon handle is pointing directly at whoever might have been in PR's normal seat, if they were sitting. That just is not where a spoon would rest unless someone just put the bowl down and then never picked the spoon up to use it while seated at that seat.

Agree that the gingerbread houses might have drawn someone to the table for another look if there was no one pushing to get kids off to bed because of the early morning trip. IMO, if PR was allowing the kids a snack, she would have wanted them at the counter (according to her interview indications) and been anxious to get them to bed for the early trip.

IMO, either BR (fingerprints) took the snacks to the table or someone helped him who was at leisure for time to spend looking at the gingerbread houses. No push to get to bed nor any fear they would be discovered enjoying a late night snack.

 

[andreww]

Was it hot tea? The fact that it was in a tall glass always gave me the impression that it was iced tea. And Patsy, being from the south, would be the most likely person in that house to indulge in iced tea.


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[Mama2JML]

Learned today on internet that city of Boulder , Colorado has several military schools/courses for the troubled teens. Interesting that in the abbreviation of their names it has TC for training courses. I cannot copy, anybody could look.


The ransom always had military flare for me, personally, from the first words of John`s business as a reason for the crime, to the last word - victory. And all this jargon, cruelty through out the ransom.

Those troubled military trained teens, with their courses having TC in the abbreviation, they trouble me from now on. I do not ask to consider, just sharing my thoughts.

Interesting thoughts, tovarisch. Thanks for sharing...

Your post sent me 'googling', and I came upon this quasi-relatable WS thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...l-Foreign-Faction-quot-Was-Never-Investigated

BlueCrab's analyses always seem to fascinate me, though I do not interpret the evidence to paint the 'larger picture' exactly as he does.


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[tovarisch]

Interesting thoughts, tovarisch. Thanks for sharing...

Your post sent me 'googling', and I came upon this quasi-relatable WS thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...l-Foreign-Faction-quot-Was-Never-Investigated

BlueCrab's analyses always seem to fascinate me, though I do not interpret the evidence to paint the 'larger picture' exactly as he does.


Thank you, Mama2 for the information. Nathan, the babysitter, is the great example of people, who were linked to the inner circle of family, but might have been overlooked.
I always thought that friends, students of JAR`s circle were not put through the grinder, as were friends and members of the parents circle. When it comes to JAR we have an iron curtain, not much is known about the young man and his about friends, girl-friends in Boulder. But he was the member of the very inner family, lived, slept, brought friends to sleep, had keys, had his own room. What was his interests? What sports, training? Being a navy officer`s son, was he involved in any military courses? Had he had military trained friends? The perfectly made knots on the garrote,people, those knots are screaming loud-- trained hand. The shoe print from those military/ hiking boots. The cruelty of the killing and in ransom. The stupidity of ransom, but with some military knowledge shown proudly and naively. The target- little girl, which consistent with the young killers.

Current days event, for example, October 2014. I cannot copy, it`s on internet. Shannon Conley, all American girl, Denver citizen, has been arrested on terrorism charges. She planned to travel to Syria to join ISIS. The teenage freely admitted that she wanted to use her America military training to wage jihad on the US.

People, history is always repeats itself. If there is angry young people in present time, there were 20 years ago. They will be in the future.

Yes, Nathan the driver, and ALL OTHERS, linked through the student JAR, should be looked closely. JAR could had been the innocent link. Lets keep our mind opened.

There is no perfect crime on earth, according to the criminal expert I watched program with last week, it was not in English, does not matter, he was an expert. He said there no perfect crime in the human history and it never would exist. He explained why. Because we all material creatures and live in material world, and that a-l-w-ay-s material evidence left on the crime scene. Without exclusion, material evidence left always. Why we have unsolved crimes ? very simple, he explained, because of failure of investigators. Because they could not read properly the material evidence and looked in the wrong direction.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

I just put down the book “Injustice” by Robert A. Whitson with contributions by Lou Smit. The reading only solidified by belief that JonBenet was killed by a violent sexual predator, this individual could have been anyone. It could have been one of the local babysitters who were never investigated or the multiple suspects who were never cleared on DNA. My main point is we need to make real progress by putting pressure on the BPD to follow up on these leads versus just having endless talks about it on online. Let’s get this boat moving, folks. It’s up to us, not anyone else.

 

[tovarisch]

I just put down the book “Injustice” by Robert A. Whitson with contributions by Lou Smit. The reading only solidified by belief that JonBenet was killed by a violent sexual predator, this individual could have been anyone. It could have been one of the local babysitters who were never investigated or the multiple suspects who were never cleared on DNA. My main point is we need to make real progress by putting pressure on the BPD to follow up on these leads versus just having endless talks about it on online. Let’s get this boat moving, folks. It’s up to us, not anyone else.

I agree that what we are doing here is trying to get butter by churning the water in the butter churn, thinking we will get butter soon, but we won`t , because we do not have the cream, meaning the good portion of information is hidden and the other half is compromised by media for 20 years.

I don`t see the how we can enforce the law on the law enforcement entity? Petition to the Governor?
The other big doubt is that monetary funds are available in the state budget, considering present economics.

 

[aussiesheila2]

I just put down the book “Injustice” by Robert A. Whitson with contributions by Lou Smit. The reading only solidified by belief that JonBenet was killed by a violent sexual predator, this individual could have been anyone. It could have been one of the local babysitters who were never investigated or the multiple suspects who were never cleared on DNA. My main point is we need to make real progress by putting pressure on the BPD to follow up on these leads versus just having endless talks about it on online. Let’s get this boat moving, folks. It’s up to us, not anyone else.

What is needed is for the case to be handed over to a Cold Case Task Force with a group of investigators completely independent of the Boulder Police IMO.

 

[tovarisch]

New "fantastic" article and new White`s radio interview. And? Nothing new.
The only surprise for me was how many times in the interview I`ve heard Krebs, Krebs, Krebs.... And in the end PW said-- We need help.
They need help. I can understand their frustration, but was it the only reason of their endless struggle for all those years ?
Disappointing. They seem to have nothing to add.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

New "fantastic" article and new White`s radio interview. And? Nothing new.
The only surprise for me was how many times in the interview I`ve heard Krebs, Krebs, Krebs.... And in the end PW said-- We need help.
They need help. I can understand their frustration, but was it the only reason of their endless struggle for all those years ?
Disappointing. They seem to have nothing to add.

Everyone is peddling Kolar's book as the holy grail of what happened that night. Yet all of Kolar's work is assumptions made in the absence of any real evidence to support RDI theories. The Whites, Kolar, Peter Boyle, and certain other individuals have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[tovarisch]

Everyone is peddling Kolar's book as the holy grail of what happened that night. Yet all of Kolar's work is assumptions made in the absence of any real evidence to support RDI theories. The Whites, Kolar, Peter Boyle, and certain other individuals have no idea what they are talking about.

Exactly! RDI theorists had a great hope that when Whites one day open their mouth after decades of silence, the world will get the break through. And what we heard- Krebs, Krebs, Krebs... and help us to clean our names. And that was it. And somebody from media said- Read Kolar`s book, as it was a bible. Everyone needs to have it on the night stand.. And we will comprehend everything once and for all.

And RDI theorist grasped it like the last straw and BDI flourished in their resent posts. What was the tool he killed his sister with? By the way, not found, not sourced to the house, not even shape of it opinioned by the professionals yet. I don`t understand people who feel free to accuse a child without proof. A child!

 

[Global Justice Ops]

Last night, Burke changed his profile picture on Facebook to a picture of his little sister and mother on Xmas Day 1996. It was a sad yet beautiful thing to see. It happened in the early morning hours also. I'm sure many people who support his family and fight for their innocence will keep him in their thoughts through out the holidays.

 

[andreww]

Until Burke publicly explains about his fingerprints on the pineapple bowl and admits that JB wasn't in bed that night, he's as guilty as the rest of them IMO. I'm sure JB will haunt him every Xmas until the day he dies.


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