Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[elannia]

Seeing that photo on BR page gives me chills. If an intruder did it then come forward and explain(like andreww posted) why his FP are on the bowl and if she was awake or asleep that night after arriving home and the events after coming home. He said she was awake and walked up the stairs. He is a grown man now and if they want people to stop talking about what happened that night maybe he should start talking. We know that will never happen though.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

I don't understand why his fingerprints being on the bowl of pineapple has to be seen as incriminating. It was their house. Their DNA and prints were all over the place because they LIVED their.

I think it's very strange that NOBODY can account for the bowl of pineapple.
I think it's very strange that pineapple was found in JonBenet's intestines.

But a person using gloves can handle solid objects without leaving their prints and not disturbing the pre existing prints on the bowl.

 

[andreww]

An intruder would not stop to give the person they are abducting a snack!

Burke's fingerprints on the bowl are important because he was very likely there when she ate it. If that is true then her parents are lying about the events of the entire night. Believe me, Burke is complicit in this crime, to what degree is the big question.


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[elannia]

I don't understand why his fingerprints being on the bowl of pineapple has to be seen as incriminating. It was their house. Their DNA and prints were all over the place because they LIVED their.

I think it's very strange that NOBODY can account for the bowl of pineapple.
I think it's very strange that pineapple was found in JonBenet's intestines.

But a person using gloves can handle solid objects without leaving their prints and not disturbing the pre existing prints on the bowl.

Yes, they lived there of course their FP and such would be all over the house. But why is there evidence of them all over the crime secene (nightgown, bowl, ligature, PR fibers on tape, JR shirt fibers, etc) but why is it all over the crime scene if they are innocent? Maybe BR had absolutely NOTHING to do with it but how does one explain his dna on her bloody nightgown and his FP on the bowl, if he didnt do it I would say imo he knows who did and what happened that night. So why not talk, imo he cant because it was either him or his parents and he cannot let the lies come out now. But I bet the truth haunts him every day, and every Christmas knowing his sister was brutally murdered. Did I mention they did not even visit her grave on her 7th? birthday. ST and his partner were there and where were the parents?

 

[andreww]

Exactly, where were the parents? I can see not visiting on her birthday(actually I can't), but I'm not sure that the Rs have ever visited her grave. They never went back to the house either, and you would think that they would want to ensure any meaningful reminders of her were safely packed, and that they wouldn't leave it to some moving company. But John needed those damn golf clubs right?




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[elannia]

Exactly, where were the parents? I can see not visiting on her birthday(actually I can't), but I'm not sure that the Rs have ever visited her grave. They never went back to the house either, and you would think that they would want to ensure any meaningful reminders of her were safely packed, and that they wouldn't leave it to some moving company. But John needed those damn golf clubs right?




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Yep. And what was in that bag of golf clubs? Did he get the bag? I cannot remember. But thats probably where all the evidence and missing stuff was hidden.

 

[tovarisch]

Let`s add a little bit of science in the pineapple digestion , and bowl, and fingerprints will loose it`s mystery or significances.

Author: R. Bowen "Control of Digestive System":

"50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours

Remember that these are estimates of average transit times, and there is a great deal of variability among individuals and within the same person at different times and after different meals". ( End of Except).

Reminder! People, human stomach and small intestine are not the same, they are separate parts of 4 parts of digestion system.

Going back to Coroner`s Autopsy. Coroner did not find anything in JB`s stomach except 10 ml of viscous and mucous, which are gastric juices.
Thus Coroner stated the stomach was empty, quote " without particular matter identified".
Now, looking at the Bowen`s chart line 2 we realize that pineapple had been in the stomach 5 hours before moved down to small intestine, where Coroner found it, in the "proximal portion of small intestine" "fragmented pieces of vegetable or fruit".
Looking at the chart above line 3 we realize that the food in JB`s small intestine stayed, could stayed up to 3 hours, where Coroner discovered it.

Simple math: 5 hours stomach + 3 hours small intes. = 8 hours. Going back in time, It` a lunch time, Ramsey`s late lunch time. And it does not matter whose fingerprint on it, or on the glass.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

But the crab was the last thing she ate it became the green fecal matter. The pineapple was not there yet. She ate it afterwards and her parents said they did not feed her pineapple, and the presence of the bowl with pineapple. It's really bizzare.

 

[tovarisch]

There is a scientific answer for your question. Below I copied more from the same researcher R. Bowen, from the same article. Pay attention that the scientist emphasizes on phenomena- the food moves not in the order it was ingested. However, the main point is that she died at least 5 hours after she ingested food LAST time ( White`s party dinner-- was it 6 PM, 7 that they served crabs? add 5 hours), because her stomach WAS EMPTY , it means at least 5 hours had past between her LAST MEAL and death. She did not eat pineapple after 10 pm, or if she did she was killed at 3 AM : 10pm ( she ate) + 5 hours (needed to move all pineapple from the stomach) = 3 AM. Which is not what Coroner said- he estimated her death at midnight or around.

The second main point that food could remain in the small intestine up to 3 hours, after witch only 50% will move down to large intestine, and the rest 50% could stay LONGER than 3 hours in small intestine. It means when Coroner found yellow-green-tan fragments in small intestine , we need to add hours , 5 hours in stomach and who knows how long in small intestine, could be 5 hours stomach plus minutes for crab, and could be 5 hour stomach plus 3 hours or more for pineapple .

Here is the except: R. Bowen " Control of Digestive System Function":

Studies of gastrointestinal transit have clearly demonstrated two related phenomena important to understanding this process:
1.Substances do not move uniformly through the digestive system.
2.Materials do not leave segments of the digestive tube in the same order as they arrive.

In other words, a meal is typically a mixture of chemically and physically diverse materials, and some substances in this mixture show accelerated transit while others are retarded in their flow downstream.

The discussion above should help to explain why it is difficult to state with any precision how long ingesta remains in the stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Nonetheless, there have been many studies on GI transit, and the table below presents rough estimates for transit times in healthy humans following ingestion of a standard meal (i.e. solid, mixed foods).

50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours

Remember that these are estimates of average transit times, and there is a great deal of variability among individuals and within the same person at different times and after different meals.

References

 

[tovarisch]

There is a scientific answer for your question. Below I copied more from the same researcher R. Bowen, from the same article. Pay attention that the scientist emphasizes on phenomena- the food moves not in the order it was ingested. However, the main point is that she died at least 5 hours after she ingested food LAST time ( White`s party dinner-- was it 6 PM, 7 that they served crabs? add 5 hours), because her stomach WAS EMPTY , it means at least 5 hours had past between her LAST MEAL and death. She did not eat pineapple after 10 pm, or if she did she was killed at 3 AM : 10pm ( she ate) + 5 hours (needed to move all pineapple from the stomach) = 3 AM. Which is not what Coroner said- he estimated her death at midnight or around.

The second main point that food could remain in the small intestine up to 3 hours, after witch only 50% will move down to large intestine, and the rest 50% could stay LONGER than 3 hours in small intestine. It means when Coroner found yellow-green-tan fragments in small intestine , we need to add hours , 5 hours in stomach and who knows how long in small intestine, could be 5 hours stomach plus minutes for crab, and could be 5 hour stomach plus 3 hours or more for pineapple .

Here is the except: R. Bowen " Control of Digestive System Function":

Studies of gastrointestinal transit have clearly demonstrated two related phenomena important to understanding this process:
1.Substances do not move uniformly through the digestive system.
2.Materials do not leave segments of the digestive tube in the same order as they arrive.

In other words, a meal is typically a mixture of chemically and physically diverse materials, and some substances in this mixture show accelerated transit while others are retarded in their flow downstream.

The discussion above should help to explain why it is difficult to state with any precision how long ingesta remains in the stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Nonetheless, there have been many studies on GI transit, and the table below presents rough estimates for transit times in healthy humans following ingestion of a standard meal (i.e. solid, mixed foods).

50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours

Remember that these are estimates of average transit times, and there is a great deal of variability among individuals and within the same person at different times and after different meals.

References

 

[tovarisch]

Oops,I made double post.

I don`t mind to sound funny and thus I give funny example to the theory of digestion.

Imagine transit airport (intestine). People are sitting and waiting. They arrived from the domestic airport (from stomach) at different time. We have no idea who arrived times ago and were sitting there for 3 hours or longer and who just arrived minutes before .
The only thing we know for sure that there domestic airport is 4-5 hours away from here, and they all at least have been in the trip for 4-5 hours.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

Around this time, 18 years ago, the party at the Whites would be winding down. The intruder was already in the house, the ransom note was already written.

 

[aussiesheila2]

Let`s add a little bit of science in the pineapple digestion , and bowl, and fingerprints will loose it`s mystery or significances.

Author: R. Bowen "Control of Digestive System":

"50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours

Remember that these are estimates of average transit times, and there is a great deal of variability among individuals and within the same person at different times and after different meals". ( End of Except).

Reminder! People, human stomach and small intestine are not the same, they are separate parts of 4 parts of digestion system.

Going back to Coroner`s Autopsy. Coroner did not find anything in JB`s stomach except 10 ml of viscous and mucous, which are gastric juices.
Thus Coroner stated the stomach was empty, quote " without particular matter identified".
Now, looking at the Bowen`s chart line 2 we realize that pineapple had been in the stomach 5 hours before moved down to small intestine, where Coroner found it, in the "proximal portion of small intestine" "fragmented pieces of vegetable or fruit".
Looking at the chart above line 3 we realize that the food in JB`s small intestine stayed, could stayed up to 3 hours, where Coroner discovered it.

Simple math: 5 hours stomach + 3 hours small intes. = 8 hours. Going back in time, It` a lunch time, Ramsey`s late lunch time. And it does not matter whose fingerprint on it, or on the glass.

Hi tovarisch, the book you reference:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

also states this:

"there is considerable normal variability among healthy people and animals in transit times through different sections of the gatrointestinal tract. Second, the time required for material to move through the digestive tube is significantly affected by the composition of the meal. Finally, transit time is influenced by such factors as psychological stress and even gender and reproductive status."

and this:

"Remember that these are estimates of average transit times, and there is a great deal of variability among individuals and within the same person at different times and after different meals."

The graph the author took his times from and that you are applying to JonBenet was from an article published in 1989. It was a study of ONE individual, gender, age (probably not a child) and state of health all unknown. I don't think it is valid to assume that JonBenet's digestion rate was the same as this individual. Also, I think that more recent studies have concluded that digestion times are much quicker than the author of this old article concluded.

This 1999 article, although pretty old too, has a graph of gastric emptying from 5 children showing a much faster rate of emptying:

http://adc.bmj.com/content/80/2/149.full


Also here is another site that states 12 to 24 hours is the normal transit time from ingestion to excretion:

http://eatheallove.com/2013/05/15/what-does-your-bowel-transit-time-say-about-your-health/


Schiller in his book reported that "Based on the condition of the pineapple in her intestine, the experts estimated that JonBenet had eaten it an hour and a half or two before she died, most likely after the family returned home that night." Although I no longer trust this book as being 100% accurate necessarily, I see no reason to dispute this particular statement as it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[tovarisch]

To aussiesheila2

I respect your time that you have spent on the research. I truly do. I have spent much time too, and it`s not easy study to digest for us, average non medical people. Your links I looked through I found not applicable for the discussion, sorry, one was about suplemental pancriatic something in the patients with cystic fibrosis, and I`m not going to involve myself with it, the other link was for the housewife`s internet article, not scientific.

The book I referred to, it was an educational book, text book for scientists or medics. Author had a lot of references he applied and a lot of research made on the subject.

Bowen`s conclusion was in full agreement with the another author, I`ve read, in foreign language, text book for criminal medics, pathologists, written by the professor, by the way a woman, who`s authority is undisputable in the gastro criminology, where the timing of digestion was Identical to Bowens. In the book, the professor presented a chart to the future pathologists, showing estimating the time of death on the found traces of food in different parts of digestion system of the corps. It was said that if food is not found in the stomach, but in small intestine, calculate the time between 5-12 hours from the last meal. If found in large intestine - more time , and so on. It was a very detailed chart, I memorized food in small intestine.

I could not present the foreign professor text book here, because the translation was beyond my scope. After several months I found the article of Bowen`s book and digestion charts were almost identical. I decided to share the knowledge.
Again, take it or leave it, it`s a personal decision. Like anything here.

Shciller`s book, or any other book is not foundation for the serious discussion. For me, personally. Text book- yes. Literature- no.

The best for all involved would be conclusion of coroner Meyer himself. What was his thinking on the time of the last meal ? That`s who I personally would trust. Strangely, he did not provide his opinion on this.

 

[tovarisch]

I need to add to my post above.

In the text book for the future pathologist, professor emphasized that to establish the time of death of the corps with 90 % certainty every pathologist duty is to measure anal temperature of corps , measure temperature in the room, and even the victim found outside in the environment, measure temperature of the air, and put the numbers in the formula, formula was provided, very simple one, and it gives you the time the body was dead, with very high degree of certainty. Especially, if body found in the room, where T does not fluctuate so much, it MUST to be done, and not doing so, would be a big flaw on the behalf of the pathologist. The only excuse she said would be not having special thermometer handy ( it was described as a small box with electronic screen and wires).

If T was not taking, professor directed students to go to the digestive system contents, and her detailed chart followed in the text book, with all 7 meters of the food`s transiting time. Her point was to establish time of death through the fact, that the last meal shows victim was alive when he (she) ingested, and to count death after the event of last meal.
For our point it serves the same-- last meal`s ingested time.

 

[otg]

There is a scientific answer for your question. Below I copied more from the same researcher R. Bowen, from the same article. Pay attention that the scientist emphasizes on phenomena- the food moves not in the order it was ingested. However, the main point is that she died at least 5 hours after she ingested food LAST time ( White`s party dinner-- was it 6 PM, 7 that they served crabs? add 5 hours), because her stomach WAS EMPTY , it means at least 5 hours had past between her LAST MEAL and death. She did not eat pineapple after 10 pm, or if she did she was killed at 3 AM : 10pm ( she ate) + 5 hours (needed to move all pineapple from the stomach) = 3 AM. Which is not what Coroner said- he estimated her death at midnight or around.

The second main point that food could remain in the small intestine up to 3 hours, after witch only 50% will move down to large intestine, and the rest 50% could stay LONGER than 3 hours in small intestine. It means when Coroner found yellow-green-tan fragments in small intestine , we need to add hours , 5 hours in stomach and who knows how long in small intestine, could be 5 hours stomach plus minutes for crab, and could be 5 hour stomach plus 3 hours or more for pineapple .

Here is the except: R. Bowen " Control of Digestive System Function":

Studies of gastrointestinal transit have clearly demonstrated two related phenomena important to understanding this process:
1.Substances do not move uniformly through the digestive system.
2.Materials do not leave segments of the digestive tube in the same order as they arrive.

In other words, a meal is typically a mixture of chemically and physically diverse materials, and some substances in this mixture show accelerated transit while others are retarded in their flow downstream.

The discussion above should help to explain why it is difficult to state with any precision how long ingesta remains in the stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Nonetheless, there have been many studies on GI transit, and the table below presents rough estimates for transit times in healthy humans following ingestion of a standard meal (i.e. solid, mixed foods).

50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours

Remember that these are estimates of average transit times, and there is a great deal of variability among individuals and within the same person at different times and after different meals.

References

As you state, tovarisch, there are too many variables in the digestive process to accurately estimate when food was consumed. Besides the differences between genders, age-groups, and individuals, one must consider the total amount of food consumed, because larger meals will obviously take longer to digest. A small snack on an almost empty stomach will travel much quicker through the digestive tract than a larger meal on an already full stomach. Because of all this and possibly even other factors, it is impossible to use digestion time as a means of estimating the time of consumption relating to TOD. But the biggest problem with your time estimate is that you are counting the time spent in the small intestine.

The small intestine is composed of three distinct segments: duodenum, jejunum, and ileum. The average length of the entire small intestine in an adult human is about 7 meters (~23 feet). It can vary greatly, from as short as 4.5 meters (15 feet) to as long as 10 meters (33 feet). Beyond infancy, the length of the small intestine does not change significantly. It does though increase significantly in diameter. The length of the small intestine is more related to total body length than age. Even though the duodenum is considered continuous with the stomach, by function it is considered a part of the small intestine. It is also referred to as the "proximal portion" of the small intestine ("proximal" in this case means the section of a digestive organ closest to the mouth, "distal" would refer to the section closest to the anus). The duodenum is a 20 to 25 cm long (8 to 10 inches) structure at the beginning of the small intestine, so-named because early physicians noted its approximate length to be about equal to the width of 12 fingers.

It is the duodenum where Dr. Meyer found the partially-digested pineapple. He doesn't say exactly where in its length, but it is a very short segment and food doesn't spend a long time there before moving on to the rest of the small intestine. What's important though is that if the pineapple was located here within the digestive tract, it means that it had essentially just left the stomach. Therefore it doesn't matter how long it would have taken to pass through the small intestine on the rest of its journey, it had only just left the stomach. And considering we are talking about a child, with a somewhat empty stomach, you should consider the lower end of any time estimate for time to pass out of the stomach into the duodenum -- not average, and certainly not the upper end of the estimate. In fact, the reported almost pristine condition of the chunks is itself an indication that the food didn't spend a great deal of time in her stomach.

 

[tovarisch]

JonBenet`s stomach was empty ---fact.

According to RDI Burke served her pineapple around 10:30-11 pm and whacked her on the head shortly after.

People in coma DO NOT digest, they do not have this function, period.

How pineapple moved to small intestine? How and when-- anybody! Please, .....

Chunks of pineapple?? Who said it? Where? Not what coroner said about his findings. Excuse me, I thought we already separated stomach and intestine in our understanding, and how chunks could move to the next step of digesting system still being chunks? And who said so?

What you saying otg,she ate pineapple, shortly after she got a whack from Burke, and chunks of pineapple jumped to the next phase of digestion right away ? Just jumped there at no time?

I think , I need a vacation . In sense no more fruitless arguments. I want to retire for couple weeks.

I wish everybody Happy New Year ! I truly respect and love all of us here.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

JonBenet`s stomach was empty ---fact.

According to RDI Burke served her pineapple around 10:30-11 pm and whacked her on the head shortly after.

People in coma DO NOT digest, they do not have this function, period.

How pineapple moved to small intestine? How and when-- anybody! Please, .....

Chunks of pineapple?? Who said it? Where? Not what coroner said about his findings. Excuse me, I thought we already separated stomach and intestine in our understanding, and how chunks could move to the next step of digesting system still being chunks? And who said so?

What you saying otg,she ate pineapple, shortly after she got a whack from Burke, and chunks of pineapple jumped to the next phase of digestion right away ? Just jumped there at no time?

I think , I need a vacation . In sense no more fruitless arguments. I want to retire for couple weeks.

I wish everybody Happy New Year ! I truly respect and love all of us here.

BBM

I'm sorry that you've run into fruitless arguments on this thread. I will say that I have enjoyed reading your posts and I hope that you come back soon.

Best wish's and a Happy New Year to you Tovarisch.

 

[aussiesheila2]

To aussiesheila2

I respect your time that you have spent on the research. I truly do. I have spent much time too, and it`s not easy study to digest for us, average non medical people. Your links I looked through I found not applicable for the discussion, sorry, one was about suplemental pancriatic something in the patients with cystic fibrosis, and I`m not going to involve myself with it, the other link was for the housewife`s internet article, not scientific.

The book I referred to, it was an educational book, text book for scientists or medics. Author had a lot of references he applied and a lot of research made on the subject.

Bowen`s conclusion was in full agreement with the another author, I`ve read, in foreign language, text book for criminal medics, pathologists, written by the professor, by the way a woman, who`s authority is undisputable in the gastro criminology, where the timing of digestion was Identical to Bowens. In the book, the professor presented a chart to the future pathologists, showing estimating the time of death on the found traces of food in different parts of digestion system of the corps. It was said that if food is not found in the stomach, but in small intestine, calculate the time between 5-12 hours from the last meal. If found in large intestine - more time , and so on. It was a very detailed chart, I memorized food in small intestine.

I could not present the foreign professor text book here, because the translation was beyond my scope. After several months I found the article of Bowen`s book and digestion charts were almost identical. I decided to share the knowledge.
Again, take it or leave it, it`s a personal decision. Like anything here.

Shciller`s book, or any other book is not foundation for the serious discussion. For me, personally. Text book- yes. Literature- no.

The best for all involved would be conclusion of coroner Meyer himself. What was his thinking on the time of the last meal ? That`s who I personally would trust. Strangely, he did not provide his opinion on this.

Hi again Tovarisch,

You have information from textbooks both saying that stomach emptying times are of the order of 2.5 to 3 hours for 50% emptying and 4 to 5 hours for 100% emptying. Then you argue that the pineapple that JonBenet ate would have taken approximately that length of time to pass through her stomach.

I disagree with you on this because those textbook times you quote are based on digestion rates for average meals. What JonBenet ate when she consumed that pineapple was not an average meal.

An average meal is composed of meat, carbohydrates and fats in addition to fibre-containing vegetables and fruit. It is my understanding that fibre-containing fruit and vegetables pass through the stomach much faster that meat and fats and somewhat faster than carbohydrates. Also the volume of an average meal would be of the order of 250 ml, much larger than the size of JonBenet’s ‘last meal’.

Since what JonBenet ate was IMO an amount of only around 30 mls of fresh fruit and included no meat, fat or carbohydrate, I believe she would have digested this in a much, much shorter time than what it would taken her to digest a ‘normal meal’.

So I think those times you quote from the textbooks are far too long and not applicable in this case.

 

[aussiesheila2]

JonBenet`s stomach was empty ---fact.

According to RDI Burke served her pineapple around 10:30-11 pm and whacked her on the head shortly after.

People in coma DO NOT digest, they do not have this function, period.

How pineapple moved to small intestine? How and when-- anybody! Please, .....

Chunks of pineapple?? Who said it? Where? Not what coroner said about his findings. Excuse me, I thought we already separated stomach and intestine in our understanding, and how chunks could move to the next step of digesting system still being chunks? And who said so?

What you saying otg,she ate pineapple, shortly after she got a whack from Burke, and chunks of pineapple jumped to the next phase of digestion right away ? Just jumped there at no time?

I think , I need a vacation . In sense no more fruitless arguments. I want to retire for couple weeks.

I wish everybody Happy New Year ! I truly respect and love all of us here.

Hey who is talking RDI theories here? Not me. As far as I am concerned it was an intruder who fed her that pineapple.