Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

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JonBenet`s stomach was empty ---fact.

According to RDI Burke served her pineapple around 10:30-11 pm and whacked her on the head shortly after.

People in coma DO NOT digest, they do not have this function, period.

How pineapple moved to small intestine? How and when-- anybody! Please, .....

Chunks of pineapple?? Who said it? Where? Not what coroner said about his findings. Excuse me, I thought we already separated stomach and intestine in our understanding, and how chunks could move to the next step of digesting system still being chunks? And who said so?

What you saying otg,she ate pineapple, shortly after she got a whack from Burke, and chunks of pineapple jumped to the next phase of digestion right away ? Just jumped there at no time?

I think , I need a vacation . In sense no more fruitless arguments. I want to retire for couple weeks.

I wish everybody Happy New Year ! I truly respect and love all of us here.

Not sure where you are getting your information from. Who ever said Burke served her pineapple at between 10:30 and 11??? According to the Rs, they were home at about 9:00 PM from the Whites (thats if you actually believe the Ramsey's timekeeping skills). IMO she had the pineapple snack at about that time. The neighbour said that she heard the scream at sometime between 1:00 and 2:00 AM, meaning JB probably didn't suffer the head blow until at least that time. That would leave a digestion period of at least four hours.

On the other hand, if you are considering IDI, I really can't see an intruder feeding her a snack then hanging around long enough for it to reach her small intestine. IMO your digestion time argument does absolutely nothing to further your IDI theory.
 
Not sure where you are getting your information from. Who ever said Burke served her pineapple at between 10:30 and 11??? According to the Rs, they were home at about 9:00 PM from the Whites (thats if you actually believe the Ramsey's timekeeping skills). IMO she had the pineapple snack at about that time. The neighbour said that she heard the scream at sometime between 1:00 and 2:00 AM, meaning JB probably didn't suffer the head blow until at least that time. That would leave a digestion period of at least four hours.

On the other hand, if you are considering IDI, I really can't see an intruder feeding her a snack then hanging around long enough for it to reach her small intestine. IMO your digestion time argument does absolutely nothing to further your IDI theory.
I believe the scream was around midnight or so... anyways that was the estimated TOD 12 to 1 so to me it makes perfect sense. She eats pineapple(no intruder is going to feed her pineapple) whatever happens in that time frame, she screams and is bashed on the head around midnight, but then the head blow to strangulation is between 45 to 90 minutes,maybe MS got the times wrong about the scream. Maybe it was a bit earlier than midnight and that imo fits with the head bash, 45 to 90 minutes passing, and she died between 12 and 1 am. They arrived home at 9:30. Supposedly went to bed at 10:30(I believe they did not) the scream, head bash happened about an hour or so AFTER they were in bed... there is no way they could not have heard that scream not long after going to bed.And in DOI J says "I was amazed at how sound asleep she was" this struck me as one big lie. She may slept on the way home, but I believe BR when he said she walked in just ahead of patsy and this imo is when she went to ready her for bed, then JB wanted a snack.
 
People here really need to slow down and do some research before they start contributing. Melody Stanton claimed that she thought she heard a child’s scream between 0000- 0200. Not midnight. I don’t know how reliable her account is because she retracted it the next two times she was asked about it.
However the first thing she said was that she did hear it at around 0200, which is why I always thought of it as significant, the tests showed that she defiantly could have heard it.
 
People here really need to slow down and do some research before they start contributing. Melody Stanton claimed that she thought she heard a child’s scream between 0000- 0200. Not midnight. I don’t know how reliable her account is because she retracted it the next two times she was asked about it.
However the first thing she said was that she did hear it at around 0200, which is why I always thought of it as significant, the tests showed that she defiantly could have heard it.
Actually I have done my bit of research on this case and she REPORTED the scream at around 12 to 2 am(I put 12 to 1 my bad) We here on WS can contribute what we want to and if something not right we can be called out on it. So I put she heard the scream about 12 to 1, she said 12 to 2 am for the scream, I was off by 1 hour, thanks for the correction. And she said she did not look at her clock but thats the time frame she gave. She recanted so who knows what the truth is about it. And she moved after the murder, how weird. This is the IDI thread, dont even know why im posting here. Im RDI.
 
I believe she said she didn't look at the clock so I have no idea how she is estimating that. When I wake up in the middle of the night and look at the clock, I'm often off by as much as five hours. Most times I'll guess within an hour or so, so her estimate could actually be anytime between 11:00 and 3:00.

That said, I'm skeptical of her story. She describes this blood curdling child's scream, then lies awake for ten minutes listening for further noises, but she doesn't look at the clock?? That is the first thing I'd do! Then when questioned the next day, she doesn't mention it!

At best this is a "maybe it happened, maybe it didn't" kind of thing. Her testimony certainly wouldn't stand up in court.


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When we look at the pineapple evidence, we can all acknowledge that JonBenet was witnessed eating cracked crab by her parents at the white. The autopsy revealed an empty stomach, pineapple in the small intestines, and green fecal matter deeper in her digestive system. So I personally can draw the following conclusions.

1. JonBenet ate the cracked crab, it digested and became the green fecal matter.

2. JonBenet ate the pineapple after she returned to her house. It stopped in her small intensities at the time of death.

Here is the snag with believing the Ramseys, which I whole heartedly do.

1. JonBenet was fed pineapple by an intruder and killed shortly thereafter.

2. JonBenet woke up and went downstairs for a snack and was attacked while eating.

The bowl did not have her prints on it, so scenario 2 is unlikely. This collection of oddities is what gave birth to the "friendly intruder" theories.
 
People. DO YOU BELIEVE IN SCIENCE?

please, have courage to admit that your theory of late snack of pineapple is tattered. JB ate pineapple earlier in the day, but never after 9:30 pm. She ate as early as their late lunch time.

Please, read below. Here is quote from American scientist and pathologist , a doctor, M.P. Lyle, M.D. "Timely Death":

Quote:
"Stomach Contents:
The ME can often use the contents of the victims stomach to help determine time of death. After a meal, the stomach empties itself in approximately 4 to 6 hours, depending on the type and amount of food ingested. If a victim stomach contains largely undigested food material, then the death likely occurred within an hour or two of the meal. If the stomach is empty, the death likely occurred more than six hours after eating. Additionally, if the small intestine is also empty, death probably occurred some 12 hours or more after the last meal."

http://www.dplylemd.com/Articles/timelydeath.html
 
JonBenet`s stomach was empty ---fact.
A fact I agree with (as I stated):
It is the duodenum where Dr. Meyer found the partially-digested pineapple. He doesn't say exactly where in its length, but it is a very short segment and food doesn't spend a long time there before moving on to the rest of the small intestine. What's important though is that if the pineapple was located here within the digestive tract, it means that it had essentially just left the stomach. Therefore it doesn't matter how long it would have taken to pass through the small intestine on the rest of its journey, it had only just left the stomach.



According to RDI Burke served her pineapple around 10:30-11 pm and whacked her on the head shortly after.
Who is this "RDI"? That's not my initials (:)). I don't group all believers in an intruder together because they don't agree on everything any more than those who believe a Ramsey is responsible. You can't make generalizations about so many different theories. In fact, until recently since more information has come out, most "RDIs" did not think Burke was the one responsible for any of it.


People in coma DO NOT digest, they do not have this function, period.
That's not true, but there's no sense in arguing the point because JonBenet was not in a coma. A coma is a state of unconsciousness lasting more than 6 hours. But assuming you meant to say she was unconscious after the head blow, her body would indeed still continue digesting any food that had been consumed. Many people go into a coma every day. Do you think that when they do, the food they have consumed simply stops in its tracks? What do you suppose happens to it?

The process that moves food through our digestive tract is not dependent on voluntary muscle movement. It's only when it reaches the rectum that we use our voluntary muscles to force it out, which is unnecessary if the person is unconscious (because the muscles we use to eliminate it are the same ones used to "hold it in"). Depending on the length of time a person is comatose, different methods are used to continue supplying nutrition and (if necessary) elimination of waste. If you want know any more than that, look up gastrostomy, enteral nutrition, feeding tube, gavage, and rectal catheter.


How pineapple moved to small intestine? How and when-- anybody! Please, .....
(See above.)


Chunks of pineapple?? Who said it? Where? Not what coroner said about his findings. Excuse me, I thought we already separated stomach and intestine in our understanding, and how chunks could move to the next step of digesting system still being chunks? And who said so?
Different foods digest at different rates, which I shouldn't have to tell you if you've read the material referenced in your earlier post. If you don't believe food can pass through your digestive system without being digested, eat enough whole-kernel corn without fletcherising it and watch your stools for the next couple of days (this will also tell you how long YOUR body takes to pass the food through). The reason for this is that the outer shell of the corn kernel is cellulose, which our body cannot break down and "digest". That cellulose is also called insoluble fiber. Most of the fiber in pineapple is insoluble. If food with high fiber content is not chewed well, the cellulose will pass through the digestive tract without being digested. It's only because of the color and size of the undigested corn kernels that they are obvious in the stool. The cellulose in pineapple is the outer structure of individual pulp strands which contain mostly liquid. Eventually, if they are not crushed by chewing, these individual thin-walled strands of pulp will burst inside the gut and not be noticed in the stool. But since the only part of digestion that occurs in the stomach is the secretion and mixture of enzymes with swallowed food (peristaltic movement), fiber will go on to the small intestine relatively unscathed. The stomach does not absorb nutrients from the food. 90% of that is done in the small intestine, and the rest of it (mostly liquid) is absorbed in the large intestine.


What you saying otg,she ate pineapple, shortly after she got a whack from Burke, and chunks of pineapple jumped to the next phase of digestion right away ? Just jumped there at no time?
You said that -- I didn't.


I think , I need a vacation . In sense no more fruitless arguments. I want to retire for couple weeks.

I wish everybody Happy New Year ! I truly respect and love all of us here.
I have no ill will toward you, my friend. How could I with a name like tovarisch? (Yes, I know what товарищ means -- I have a friend from Ukraine.) But understanding correctly what happened is important to both you and I, regardless of what we want to believe. Don't judge what someone says according to what you think they believe. Aussieshiela2 and I disagree on the intruder, but we agree (I think) on everything about the digestion. You've already misjudged her position based on what she posted. Think about it, and enjoy your vacation, "tovarisch".
 
When we look at the pineapple evidence, we can all acknowledge that JonBenet was witnessed eating cracked crab by her parents at the white. The autopsy revealed an empty stomach, pineapple in the small intestines, and green fecal matter deeper in her digestive system. So I personally can draw the following conclusions.

1. JonBenet ate the cracked crab, it digested and became the green fecal matter.

2. JonBenet ate the pineapple after she returned to her house. It stopped in her small intensities at the time of death.

Here is the snag with believing the Ramseys, which I whole heartedly do.

1. JonBenet was fed pineapple by an intruder and killed shortly thereafter.

2. JonBenet woke up and went downstairs for a snack and was attacked while eating.

The bowl did not have her prints on it, so scenario 2 is unlikely. This collection of oddities is what gave birth to the "friendly intruder" theories.
I don't want to cause you to start questioning your sanity, GJO, but I agree with you on this post. Lou Smit called it "the big bugaboo". Right?
 
I don't want to cause you to start questioning your sanity, GJO, but I agree with you on this post. Lou Smit called it "the big bugaboo". Right?

Or the parents are lying. The RN was quite clear when it said the intruders hated John and would have no problems executing his daughter. Then when evidence is found that clearly discounts the Ramseys story, the angry, vengeful intruder becomes a friendly intruder.

I'm not buying it. JB walked in to that house like her brother said. She ate pineapple, probably at the same time as her brother. Who knows what happened next, but from these events it seems pretty clear that the Rs are lying.


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I believe in science and I also believe in the fact that some foods digest much faster. Pineapple is one of the fastest digesting foods out there. That's science.
 
I believe in science and I also believe in the fact that some foods digest much faster. Pineapple is one of the fastest digesting foods out there. That's science.
I love me some science too, but science doesn't nearly clear up this "bugaboo".


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Check out the new Enquirer! They claim to know the real killer and he apparently died in prison in CO in 2011. Edward Edwards?
 
People. DO YOU BELIEVE IN SCIENCE?

please, have courage to admit that your theory of late snack of pineapple is tattered. JB ate pineapple earlier in the day, but never after 9:30 pm. She ate as early as their late lunch time.

Please, read below. Here is quote from American scientist and pathologist , a doctor, M.P. Lyle, M.D. "Timely Death":

Quote:
"Stomach Contents:
The ME can often use the contents of the victims stomach to help determine time of death. After a meal, the stomach empties itself in approximately 4 to 6 hours, depending on the type and amount of food ingested. If a victim stomach contains largely undigested food material, then the death likely occurred within an hour or two of the meal. If the stomach is empty, the death likely occurred more than six hours after eating. Additionally, if the small intestine is also empty, death probably occurred some 12 hours or more after the last meal."

http://www.dplylemd.com/Articles/timelydeath.html

OK tovarisch, I’ve found something you should approve of – a scientific article from the Journal of Nuclear Medicine, May 1998. However this article gives gastric clearance times results that are much shorter than those in the references you have given.

http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/39/5/865.long

This article relates to healthy children and if you go to Figure 6 you will see times given for gastric emptying of both solids and of liquids.

It is my opinion that a small fruit snack like what JonBenet ate would be somewhere halfway between the two ie 50% emptying would occur within one hour and 75% emptying within one and a half hours, much shorter than the times you are quoting.
 
I think people tend to over-analyze this kind of stuff. Fact - the meal she ate at the Whites was fully digested. Fact - the Whites did not serve pineapple. Thus it is 100% certain that she ate pineapple after returning home. Fact - the Ramsey's claim JB was asleep when they returned home and that they didn't feed her the pineapple.

So this leaves two possibilities:

1) an intruder used a stun gun (as the Ramsey's claim) to subdue her, then he takes her to the kitchen and feeds her the snack.

2) the Ramsey's are lying.

I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the second option is likely true.


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I think people tend to over-analyze this kind of stuff. Fact - the meal she ate at the Whites was fully digested. Fact - the Whites did not serve pineapple. Thus it is 100% certain that she ate pineapple after returning home. Fact - the Ramsey's claim JB was asleep when they returned home and that they didn't feed her the pineapple.

So this leaves two possibilities:

1) an intruder used a stun gun (as the Ramsey's claim) to subdue her, then he takes her to the kitchen and feeds her the snack.

2) the Ramsey's are lying.

I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the second option is likely true.


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andreww,
BBM: ITA. JonBenet's last meal was the pineapple snack, since that was the remains at the top of her digestive system. Which should scupper all those who want to say the bowl of pineapple in the breakfast bar represents leftovers from earlier that day!

.
 
I think people tend to over-analyze this kind of stuff. Fact - the meal she ate at the Whites was fully digested. Fact - the Whites did not serve pineapple. Thus it is 100% certain that she ate pineapple after returning home. Fact - the Ramsey's claim JB was asleep when they returned home and that they didn't feed her the pineapple.

So this leaves two possibilities:

1) an intruder used a stun gun (as the Ramsey's claim) to subdue her, then he takes her to the kitchen and feeds her the snack.

2) the Ramsey's are lying.

I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the second option is likely true.


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Andreww~

Your 'facts' are presumptions. We don't know what (if anything) JonBenét ate @ the Whites' house, so we certainly don't know that 'it' had been fully digested. AND, according to his sworn testimony in Wolf v. Rs, FW couldn't recall if pineapple was served at his home on the 25th.

When, where, how, or with whom this occurred, are all unknowns.


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Andreww~

Your 'facts' are presumptions. We don't know what (if anything) JonBenét ate @ the Whites' house, so we certainly don't know that 'it' had been fully digested. AND, according to his sworn testimony in Wolf v. Rs, FW couldn't recall if pineapple was served at his home on the 25th.

When, where, how, or with whom this occurred, are all unknowns.


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Mama2JML,
FW couldn't recall if pineapple was served at his home on the 25th.
Having no recall is not the same as saying pineapple was served. Other guests are available to confirm whether pineapple was served or not. It is not an open question.

Are you suggesting JonBenet snacked pineapple twice on 12/25/1996, once at her house before leaving for the White's then again at the White's?

.
 
OK tovarisch, I’ve found something you should approve of – a scientific article from the Journal of Nuclear Medicine, May 1998. However this article gives gastric clearance times results that are much shorter than those in the references you have given.

http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/39/5/865.long

This article relates to healthy children and if you go to Figure 6 you will see times given for gastric emptying of both solids and of liquids.

It is my opinion that a small fruit snack like what JonBenet ate would be somewhere halfway between the two ie 50% emptying would occur within one hour and 75% emptying within one and a half hours, much shorter than the times you are quoting.

Article is approved for studying))))))...
What we got from it, figure #7, solid food in 1 y.old boy. Author gave a digesting time for 57% of total ingested food 120 minutes, 2 hours. 43% remained in stomach. Author did not cleared when all 100% would be processed down from stomach. I guess we need to add more hours.
Not only this. Our child, I mean JB, was dying for 1 hour or 1 hour 30 minutes, when her digestion was tremendously affected, if not zeroed.
We need to add those hours to the formula.
Let`s add: 2 hours for 57% (your author)+ 1 hour ( my guess for leftovers 43%)+ 1,30 (slowed, stop digesting due to dying)= 5 hours, at least.
Science is stubborn thing.
 
Mama2JML,

Having no recall is not the same as saying pineapple was served. Other guests are available to confirm whether pineapple was served or not. It is not an open question.

Are you suggesting JonBenet snacked pineapple twice on 12/25/1996, once at her house before leaving for the White's then again at the White's?

.
No. I simply disagree with andreww's assessment of the 'facts' and his resulting conclusions.

It seems reasonable to accept (as fact) that JonBenét ate some quantity of pineapple within hours of her demise, but I find it unreasonable for one to propose that we can definitively conclude much beyond this.


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