• #161
In his address to the nation today, President Trump offered immunity to leaders in Iran who give up the fight, so to speak, if they do it now. On the other hand, if they wait and don't do it now, then the deal is off the table.

As I was listening to the ambassador for the Islamic Republic of Iran giving his remarks today at the emergency meeting of the Security Council at the United Nations, I couldn't help but wonder what his next move will be. Is he going back to Iran and counting on having some kind of security there? From the contents of his remarks, I guess he decided that Trump's offer of immunity is not the way to go for him, at least.
 
  • #162
Now that I think about it, I sure as heck hope we did destroy their nuclear capabilities last year.
unlikely. but i don't think they have a delivery system that can reach us. Israel's within range of their missiles, but seems to have made their own risk/benefit analysis when they decided to participate in this strike.

which brings us back to missile defense. it is the solution to all of this. it doesnt just control the risk of being hit by nukes, it reduces the temptation for people to make them in the first place.
 
  • #163
Tourists trapped at airports, oil prices soaring, expectation is that regional leaders will push for renewed negotiations.

"The airspace of Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, and the UAE has been closed. Thousands of people are stranded at airports after their flights were canceled.
...

Iran now appears to have also closed the Strait of Hormuz , one of the world's most important shipping routes, through which some 20 percent of all fossil fuels pass annually. According to an official with the EU naval mission Aspides, ships are receiving messages from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard stating that no ship is permitted to pass through the strait.
...

Oil prices have already reacted strongly to the unrest in the Gulf region. Brent crude was around $70 a barrel this morning and has since risen to $73.
...

Influential Iran analyst Vali Nasr writes that Iran is now focusing on absorbing US and Israeli attacks, escalating the conflict in a controlled manner, and forcing regional actors to mediate a ceasefire. "They expect that if Trump doesn't achieve a quick victory, he will look for a way out."

Moo …Israel and US are gonna hammer Iran non stop for days. They’re using missiles, advance drones and cheeper drone. We may see other countries enter the arena.
I do not see Israel or the US backing down. I think this was a master plan … go on knock out/damage the nuclear facilities and then knock out the regime.
Moo …
 
  • #164
Landlines and cellphone service were down across Iran, making it difficult to gauge public sentiment in the nation of more than 90 million people as U.S. and Israeli forces struck targets for a second day. Early reports of the death toll in Iran suggested that more than 100 people had been killed in the first wave of strikes.

But in neighborhoods across Tehran, the capital, pockets of exuberance emerged. In video calls with The New York Times, three residents of Tehran showed the scenes unfolding in their neighborhoods: Large crowds of men and women dancing and cheering, shouting, “Woohoo, hurrah.” Drivers passing by honked their car horns. Fireworks lit up the sky and loud Persian dance music filled the streets. Many residents, from their windows and balconies, joined in a chant of “freedom, freedom

18660864_022826-wls-evelyn-iran-latest-6a-vid.jpg


Just a few hours after a strike on Iran, explosions rocked northern Israel as the country attempted to intercept incoming missiles.

"Our objective is to defend the American people by eliminating imminent threats from the Iranian regime, a vicious group of very hard, terrible people," Trump said in a video statement
 
  • #165
As far as Iranian exiles in the US are concerned, I believe they have come in various waves. The first wave included many who supported the Shah's regime. It also included many Baha'is, who were targeted for mass killings as heretics at the start of the Islamic revolution. Jews fled after multiple executions of community leaders, property confiscation, new limitations on their rights, and imposition of Islamic law. Communists, Socialists and secular opponents of the Shah were also forced to flee to the West, as the Islamic revolution turned on them. Upper middle class and wealthy people fled, as the IRGC seized property and businesses under various pretexts. Like most revolutions, the Islamic revolution ended the lives of thousands and created a corrupt new elite.

In the decades following 1979, Iran lost a lot of students and its younger educated people due to waves of repression, arrests and executions. The lives of women, especially educated and professional women, were impacted by fundamentalist repression, and many fled to Western countries, including the US.

I think the Iranian emigres in the US are quite varied, but the majority may have been more affluent than many other Iranians

As far as the percentage of people inside Iran who want to see a new form of government, it's hard to tell.

Just my opinion, based on talking to Iranians here, who aren't necessarily a broad sampling.

Very informative, @Warwick1991, thank you.

I have Iranian friends here in NYC who fled after the revolution, and they resolutely refer to themselves as “Persian.” They do not identify with the Iran of today ( hopefully after today the repressive government in Iran will not reformulate).
 
  • #166
Have there been any reports of any hurt or dead Americans?
 
  • #167
it worked in all the axis powers after wwii

also, not regime change, but the nation-building in Bosnia seems to have been a success.

what's true of regime change is that it's difficult, takes a serious, long-term commitment, and can make things worse if you f it up. usually better not to try.

I agree that the Axis powers were able to effect regime change when they lost WW II.

But I can’t say it’s usually better not to try. What if we hadn’t gone after Hitler?

JMO
 
  • #168
"Khamenei’s killing sets off a process under the Iranian constitution in which the Iranian president, the head of the judiciary and one cleric from the Guardian Council will form a council to lead the country."

Yeah, they cut of the head of the snake. Now what?

This isn't Iraq which was a young country (founded after WWI) of factions governed by dictator.

This is the oldest sovereign state in the world.

Heck, they never forgave the US for their part in Mosaddegh's overthrow in 1953. They never got over it, hence that was one reason they held hostages in the US Embassy and called the shah a US puppet.

Currently, there is no real opposition in Iran, just angry protesters. (They rule the country in N Korea fashion, so that there is no opposition)

In 1978 and 79, there was plenty of opposition. However, Khomeni's people saw competing factions and slid right in and took over. There were some decent moderates who were part of the Iranian revolution. They all would have created a fair governmen. Khomeni brought them in under the guise of the new government. However, Khomeni had them all killed within two years. Only Banisadr survived because he fled to France. It was pretty sad.
 
Last edited:
  • #169
Iran’s foreign ministry called on Muslim and non-aligned states to denounce the attacks as a breach of the UN charter, pointing out that the US-Israeli strikes on Saturday were the second such attack in a year while Iran was in the middle of sensitive negotiations over its nuclear programme. Iran described the talks as a US-Israeli deception operation.

The talks had focused on setting up a verifiable process whereby Iran could not acquire the materials for a nuclear bomb. The chief mediator in the talks, Oman’s foreign minister, Badr Albusaidi, had said on Friday that he believed peace was within reach.

Satellite image of an apparently bombed compound surrounded by standing buildings


  • The U.S. and Israel launched another round of strikes early Sunday morning local time, officials said. Mr. Trump said in a social media post late Saturday afternoon that "heavy and pinpoint bombing" of Iran would "continue, uninterrupted throughout the week or, as long as necessary." The president earlier said the operation was to "prevent this very wicked, radical dictatorship from threatening America and our core national security interests."
  • The president called on Iran's military forces to lay down their weapons, and on Iran's civilians to rise up and "take over your government."
  • Live Updates: U.S.-Israel strikes killed 40 Iranian leaders, including Khamenei, sources say
 
Last edited:
  • #170
Have there been any reports of any hurt or dead Americans?

Iran says it has hit US military targets.
And I have seen photos of Tel Aviv being hit, and read that they have casualties (injuries and a death) there. imo


Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) claimed all Israeli and US military targets in the Middle East have been struck “by the powerful blows of Iranian missiles”.

“This operation will continue relentlessly until the enemy is decisively defeated,” it said. All US assets throughout the region are considered legitimate targets for Iran’s army, it added.


 
  • #171
I agree that the Axis powers were able to effect regime change when they lost WW II.

But I can’t say it’s usually better not to try. What if we hadn’t gone after Hitler?

JMO
I said usually, not always. nazi germany was as extreme a case as there's ever been.
 
  • #172
Yup, we'll see the impact when markets open on Monday.

"Around 20 million barrels of oil pass through the Strait of Hormuz, the waterway between Iran and Oman, every day. It accounts for about 20 percent of global oil trade. After the American and Israeli attack, it appears that Iran has blocked the strait. This is causing significant tension in the oil and shipping sectors.

Oil prices have already risen last week due to tensions in the Middle East. The expectation is that oil prices will rise further on Monday when the market reopens. This will translate into higher prices at the gas pump."

Southeast US have gone down .30 over the last two weeks. Guess I better fill up at 2.69 a gallon.
Moo …
 
  • #173
Iran says it has hit US installations.


Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) claimed all Israeli and US military targets in the Middle East have been struck “by the powerful blows of Iranian missiles”.

“This operation will continue relentlessly until the enemy is decisively defeated,” it said. All US assets throughout the region are considered legitimate targets for Iran’s army, it added.

Lol. Earlier they claimed to have sunk a ship.

Thus far they’ve had dozens of missiles shot down, and hit some mostly empty bases.
 
  • #174
It wasn't unconstitutional so, for me, this does apply. MOO
Could you please explain how this was constitutionally agreed to. Doesn't the President have to get approval from Congress before going to war?
(My apologies if I don't fully understand US political systems.)
 
  • #175
Could you please explain how this was constitutionally agreed to. Doesn't the President have to get approval from Congress before going to war?
(My apologies if I don't fully understand US political systems.)
yes and no. congress tends to give presidents blank checks in this area. if I'm not mistaken, there is an outstanding authorization for presidents to take military action as long as it doesn"t go on more than X number of days. in practice, the constitutional constraint that the president is not supposed go to war without Congress's permission has been dead since the mid-20th century.
 
  • #176
Could you please explain how this was constitutionally agreed to. Doesn't the President have to get approval from Congress before going to war?
(My apologies if I don't fully understand US political systems.)
It requires no congressional approval. Every President since Harry Truman has launched military action without approval.

And this isn’t a war. It’s a military strike.
 
  • #177
I agree that the Axis powers were able to effect regime change when they lost WW II.

But I can’t say it’s usually better not to try. What if we hadn’t gone after Hitler?

JMO
I'm pretty sure that isn't on the same level. Hitler invaded many other countries. We all stood by our allies. Iran hasn't invaded one other country, have they?
Again, I'm not defending Iran. Their regime is horrible. (As is the regime in many other countries.) And USA was late to the party in WW2 as they were justifiably occupied in the Pacific theatre. I just don't find this comparable in any way to WW2. But perhaps I'm missing something?
 
  • #178
Lol. Earlier they claimed to have sunk a ship.

Thus far they’ve had dozens of missiles shot down, and hit some mostly empty bases.

Unfortunately, they have hit two residential apartment buildings in Tel Aviv though.

 
  • #179
It requires no congressional approval. Every President since Harry Truman has launched military action without approval.

And this isn’t a war. It’s a military strike.
Politely, that's semantics.

A missile is a missile, and the damage it does is the same whatever name you put on the action.

MOO
 
  • #180
It requires no congressional approval. Every President since Harry Truman has launched military action without approval.

And this isn’t a war. It’s a military strike.
There are strikes back and forth with confirmed citizen casualties, looks most certainly like a war to me.
 

Guardians Monthly Goal

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
232
Guests online
1,836
Total visitors
2,068

Forum statistics

Threads
644,104
Messages
18,810,939
Members
245,312
Latest member
hottoddy405
Top