• #801
Spoiler alert, the guys kidnapping toddlers and raping people at music festivals are not “freedom fighters.”

They are terrorists.
Did I say they were freedom fighters? Nice job putting words in my mouth <modsnip: Members are not "dude">.

I’m saying there’s a reason they were formed whether they are good or evil. Their creation didn’t come out of nowhere. <modsnip>
 
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  • #802
if we're going by state actors, i can name five or six that have killed more than 1000 americans. and most or all used tactics we would call terrorism.
Just curious, were they all theocracies?

Jmo
 
  • #803
True, but if Israel and the US had the situation under control, would there be concerns about Iran continuing to target military bases in neighbouring countries?
Iran's decision to lash out against its neighbors is bringing those Muslim nations into the war against Iran.
 
  • #804
Good grief!! Are these allegations of "rape" going to be cited to something or is this just anything goes at this time. We can certainly provide LOTS of verified information about the sexual assaults committed by Iran funded Hamas on Oct 7 and thereafter.
Apparently that’s ok, because of “history” or something.

The fact that “history” is one sided and equates a literal terrorist organization with a nation fighting to survive against multiple Iranian funded terror organizations, notwithstanding.
 
  • #805
Are you suggesting that we are letting missiles through on purpose? If so I will see myself out of this conversation because my son is currently working in missile defense shooting down Iranian drones and to suggest they would let some through ?
What I’m saying is unless we have a solution that doesn’t involve mass deaths of civilians then maybe we shouldn’t be attacking them?? Why do ordinary people have to die? What did they do?
 
  • #806
With infrastructure being destroyed, civilians will have a whole bunch of rubble in which to start any new govt. No government offices, no military offices, no navy.

How are they supposed to form a new government?

imo
The US had much less after our revolutionary war and we managed. Freedom is worth fighting for. Many leave their homeland and seek countries that provide freedom.
Moo …
 
  • #807
Spoiler alert, the guys kidnapping toddlers and raping people at music festivals are not “freedom fighters.”

They are terrorists.
We know that. That doesn't excuse Israel from committing a genocide on the Palestinians.
 
  • #808
Thanks a lot massguy. That Mein Kampf insult is crazy
Massguy isn't the reason this thread has become such a dumpster fire. Some here have chosen to make this an platform for their hatred and bigotry instead of just a forum to discuss events. Massguy is quite calm and reasonable in his discussions.
 
  • #809
The Iranians have already suffered for decades because of the actions of the Ayatollah.

He killed close to 30,000 of them in just 2 days this year: Iran Protest Death Toll Could Top 30,000: Local Officials

Unlike the Ayatollah, the US and Israel will go to great lengths to try to spare civilians from harm, AND will try to help rebuilding efforts so long as what's being built can co-exist peacefully with western civilization.

JMO.

I don't see this in the same way. It may have been different if this was a military operation that went in quick, wiped out the leaders, and left. Then used 'diplomacy' to help bring in another government.

What I don't like is turning their homeland into rubble. Because it will make it that much harder for any new govt to form. Civilians may actually hate the attackers for destroying their infrastructure.

imo
 
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  • #810
Just curious, were they all theocracies?

Jmo
no? why does that matter?

i think the bottom line here is that the only way defend the statement "iran has killed more americans than any other terrorist regime", is to carefully define "terrorist regime" to exclude a bunch of elephants in the living room, like al qaeda, nazi germany, imperial japan, fascist italy, and (i think) even the taliban. it's basically inventing a category so you can make iran sound like the worst enemy we've ever faced.

it's similar in spirit to when the announcer says "this hitter bats over 0.700 with runners in scoring position on the first tuesday after a full moon".
 
  • #811
The Iranian warship Makran on fire in Bandar Abbas.

Newly captured satellite imagery from the ongoing conflict with Iran shows it's biggest warship — a former oil tanker converted into a floating base — on fire at a military port.

The imagery, captured on Monday by the US commercial imaging firm Planet Labs PBC and obtained by Business Insider, shows a massive plume of smoke rising from what analysts identified as the IRINS Makran in the harbor at Bandar Abbas, an Iranian port city adjacent to the Strait of Hormuz and the Makran's home port.
 
  • #812

State Department urges Americans to leave more than a dozen Middle Eastern countries

The ⁠US ⁠Department of State has called on nationals to immediately leave ⁠more than a dozen countries in the Middle East during ongoing US-Israeli strikes against Iran.

US citizens were urged to depart using commercial means from Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, ⁠Israel, the occupied West ⁠Bank and Gaza, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, ⁠Saudi Arabia, Syria, United ⁠Arab Emirates ⁠and Yemen, according to Mora Namdar, the department’s ‌assistant secretary for consular affairs.

The intensity of the attacks, the killing of Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and the lack of any apparent exit plan has set the stage for a prolonged conflict with far-reaching consequences.


Also on AP, but they don't list all of the countries
 
  • #813
Spain is part of the EU, many people in the UK and the EU no longer view the USA as a reliable ally

Also Spain is not ‘siding’ with Iran

IMO
I don't view it as Spain siding with Iran. I do however view it as Spain not supporting the US. I think many in the US see it this way as well, and will remember.

Re: "many people in the UK and EU no longer view the US as a reliable ally", I think the feeling is mutual.

Jmo
 
  • #814
  • #815
We know that. That doesn't excuse Israel from committing a genocide on the Palestinians.
But the Israelis have NOT committed a genocide on the Palestinians. This just keeps getting thrown around, but it isn't correct. A war was being waged, and Hamas embedded in the Gazan people and refused to surrender. That is the horrible reality of war. But it is NOT genocide. Did the Allies commit genocide against the German people at the end of WW2?
 
  • #816
I don't see this in the same way. It may have been different if this was a military operation that went in quick, wiped out the leaders, and left. Then used 'diplomacy' to help bring in another government.

What I don't like is turning their homeland into rubble. Because it will make it that much harder for any new govt to form. Civilians may actually hate the attackers for destroying their infrastructure.

imo
But isn't that exactly what seems to be happening? I don't seen any wholesale destruction of the Iranian infrastructure. Do you have links to information about infrastructure destruction? The goal seems to be to cut the head off to allow the people their chance. Revolutionary Guard unfortunately controls sooo much, and their capabilities have to be degraded . I suspect IRG will begin fading into the crowds now to save themselves.
 
  • #817
It looks like the US government is gradually getting people comfortable with the idea of a long war in the Middle East. It started with 2-3 or 5 days, then 4-5 weeks, now it might be far longer.

"The U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran and wide-scale Iranian reprisals expanded Monday as the United States pledged to send more troops to the region. Speaking in the White House’s East Room, President Donald Trump said the U.S. military projected that the operation in Iran could take four to five weeks but has “the capability to go far longer than that.”

The U.S. military expects to endure additional casualties in its operation, Joint Chiefs Chairman Dan Caine said in a rare on-camera news briefing, adding that accomplishing objectives will take “some time” and, “in some cases, will be difficult and gritty work.”

 
  • #818
Gas on southeastern US Sun 2.69 today 3.09 per gallon.
I don’t mind paying 5.00 per gallon if Irans nuclear program is destroyed. I want my grandkids to have a safer future.
Moo
Agree, 100% !
 
  • #819
no? why does that matter?

i think the bottom line here is that the only way defend the statement "iran has killed more americans than any other terrorist regime", is to carefully define "terrorist regime" to exclude a bunch of elephants in the living room, like al qaeda, nazi germany, imperial japan, fascist italy, and (i think) even the taliban. it's basically inventing a category so you can make iran sound like the worst enemy we've ever faced.

it's similar in spirit to when the announcer says "this hitter bats over 0.700 with runners in scoring position on the first tuesday after a full moon".
You said "terror", which would exclude WWII, not to mention that it was over 70 years ago. Of the other modern era entities you name, they all were supported by one or more theocracies. I think history shows that it matters.

Jmo
 
  • #820
It looks like the US government is gradually getting people comfortable with the idea of a long war in the Middle East. It started with 2-3 or 5 days, then 4-5 weeks, now it might be far longer.

"The U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran and wide-scale Iranian reprisals expanded Monday as the United States pledged to send more troops to the region. Speaking in the White House’s East Room, President Donald Trump said the U.S. military projected that the operation in Iran could take four to five weeks but has “the capability to go far longer than that.”

The U.S. military expects to endure additional casualties in its operation, Joint Chiefs Chairman Dan Caine said in a rare on-camera news briefing, adding that accomplishing objectives will take “some time” and, “in some cases, will be difficult and gritty work.”

When was there NOT war in the Middle East?
 

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