Is Patsy Ramsey losing her battle with ovarian cancer

[Jayelles]

I did not miss the quote from Lou Smit and addressed it in an earlier post.

Rainsong

So why did you say:-

the only proof we have it is pineapple is Steve Thomas' word

????

 

[Rainsong]

Rainsong,

This info had been provided to you several times in the past, but you and others from over yonder continually ignore it and bring up the same question. But here it is again:

The pineapple in the bowl found on the breakfast room table on December 26, 1996 was frozen as evidence, as was the pineapple from JonBenet's small intestine. In February of 1998 two college biology professors were selected to analyze the pineapple. The two experts concluded that both samples were fresh pineapple that included some of the outer rind of the fruit and there were no distinctive differences between the pineapple from the bowl and the pineapple from JonBenet's small intestines.

We know why you ignore much of the pineapple evidence. The pineapple proves there was no intruder. JonBenet would have never gone downstairs willingly with an intruder, after being stungunned, and together snacked on pineapple while the intruder sipped on tea at the breakfast room table.

BlueCrab

Blue Crab,

At no time have I ever said I did not believe the remnants were not pineapple. As a matter of fact, I believe I posted to that particular point previously.

I am not ignoring anything.

Rainsong

 

[Jayelles]

It's funny how you still haven't answered the simple questions as to whether you apply the same exacting standards of scientific proof to the "stungun marks".

You've reponded several times with non answers/sidesteps when a simple yes or no would suffice.

It's not a hard question.

 

[Rainsong]

So why did you say:-


????

Because while Lou Smit may very well be a fine detective, his say-so as a member of the prosecution's team, cannot be taken at face value--by me or by a court of law. IF this case would ever go to court, the experts who identified the remnants as pineapple would be called to testify on this, not Lou Smit nor Steve Thomas.

Rainsong

 

[tipper]

Thanks for the info, so are you thinking the pineapple was from the 24th? What parents wouldn't feed their child on Christmas? I'm amazed!

No. As I said in post #152, I think she ate it before going to the Whites. Given the small amount found I think she snarfed a piece just before leaving. I agree with Jayelles that candy and sweets are what kids would most likely head for while at a party. I don't know where you got the idea they didn't eat on Christmas. We know they had pancakes for breakfast. After that whatever they ate I assume they got on their own. I stopped making breakfast and lunch for my kids when they got old enough to do it for themselves.

 

[Jayelles]

It's funny how you still haven't answered the simple questions as to whether you apply the same exacting standards of scientific proof to the "stungun marks".

You've reponded several times with non answers/sidesteps when a simple yes or no would suffice.

It's not a hard question.

Is it a very hard question to answer... or a compromising one?

Yes... or no.

 

[Toltec]

LS: Now what have you heard about pineapple?

JR: Well, we were asked if JonBenet had eaten any pineapple, because apparently it was found in her system...I don't remember her eating pineapple, I don't remember pineapple...at the White's house.

************

JR: I understand, I understand. I mean, my suspicion when I first heard that was, well, there must have been pineapple at the White's house, and I don't remember it but there was all sorts of little finger foods, and the kids were in and out and grabbing this and that. We understood the White's said no, they didn't serve pineapple...but I guess my question would be, well, did the kids go to the refrigerator and get a bite of pineapple at the Whites? If it wasn't there and was it earlier in the day, Patsy would most likely know,. She liked pineapple. I guess...it would not have been out of the question that she grabbed some out of the refrigerator in the day sometime, but I don't know that she could get the door open. But I mean, it's hard for to me to think that this intruder could have taken her downstairs and fed her pineapple. I just can't buy that.

 

[Rainsong]

Is it a very hard question to answer... or a compromising one?

Yes... or no.

I've answered this question previously. Some may not like my answer...

Rainsong

 

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Jayelles


Originally Posted by Rainsong
I did not miss the quote from Lou Smit and addressed it in an earlier post.

Rainsong

So why did you say:-

Quote:
the only proof we have it is pineapple is Steve Thomas' word

????

I wondered about that too.

She still hasn't answered you...

Sad when someone can't keep their info straight and can't admit it when they are wrong. Esp when they are caught outright posting contradictory information on the exact same thread.

 

[tipper]

Doberson said he believes it was a stun gun within "a reasonable degree of medical certainty" which is about as absolute as you'll get from a doctor. Werner Spitz disagrees.

Apparently BPD consulted with Doberson but didn't like his opinion so they shopped some more. Until both these experts can be publically examined and cross examined under oath we won't really be able to base our own conclusions on anything more than gut feelings.

 

[Jayelles]

I've answered this question previously. Some may not like my answer...

Rainsong

You haven't asnwered the questiobn.

let me recap:-

Rainsong said regarding the pineapple:-

I'd like confirmation, not from LE but from some scientific entity.

Jayelles asked (note this is a simple question requiring a yes/no answer):-

And do you have the same high standards of scientific proof about the use of a stungun?

Rainsong replied:-

I do believe experts in stun gun marks have already spoken on same.

I do not consider this an answer to my simple question. You could just as well have replied "My dog has fleas".

If you do not wish to asnwer the question please just say. I think you do not wish to say "Yes" because that would be tantamount to questioning the "party line". At the same time, if you say "No" then you will be seen to have double standards.

I think that is why you are giving non-answers and doing the little sidesteps.:dance:

 

[Seeker]

I don't believe she can't answer you in any other way Jayelles. She's incapbable of doing a simple "yes", or "no" answer.

It doesn't suit her purposes.

She has ignored my question too.

Rainsong, why do you continually go off topic to derail the discussions?

tipper, Spitz refuted that, he didn't agree with it. It was on 48 hours...

"It just looked to me, superficially, that it fits," Doberson said. (this is in the RockyMountainNews)

The Boulder police were skeptical of Smit's stun-gun theory, and showed some of the autopsy pictures to Arapahoe County coroner Dr. Michael Doberson, who had researched stun-gun wounds. Doberson said he didn't think the marks were from a stun gun. But recently, NEWSWEEK asked Doberson to review Smit's stun-gun evidence. Doberson says the police never showed him Smit's pictures comparing the size and orientation of the marks with the electrical contacts on the Air Taser. He now calls Smit's stun-gun theory "compelling."

Doberson never says the marks are absolutely from a stun gun and he's on record as saying to prove it the body would have to be exhumed.

BTW last time Smit even backed down on his stun gun theory...he's not so sure it was a stun gun anymore.

From the Daily Camera

Again without attribution, The New Yorker article reports that forensic experts have discovered that the distance between two marks found in two places on JonBenet's body are the same distance apart as the two prongs on an Air Taser brand weapon.

But Arapahoe County Coroner Michael Doberson said a Taser is a very different weapon than a stun gun, which is what investigators have been talking about since last spring.

While a stun gun emits a high-voltage shock from two prongs held up against a person's body, a Taser fires two small projectiles connected to electricity-carrying wires, Paladin Arms owner Bob Glass said.

Glass called the Air Taser "a pretty pricey item," selling at his shop for about $300.

Doberson said Boulder detectives visited him April 25 to ask about a 2-year-old Arapahoe County case in which the coroner exhumed the body of Gerald Boggs eight months after burial and found evidence of electrical shock in the man's skin tissue.

"They came over and showed me some pictures from the (Ramsey) autopsy and asked for my opinion, whether they could be stun gun injuries," Doberson recalled. "I told them that they could be; that was a possibility. But there were a lot of things they could do to narrow down the possibilities of what it could be."

Doberson told Boulder investigators to do what The New Yorker reports they eventually did - measure the distance between the wounds and compare that to stun guns.

But with fired projectiles instead of fixed prongs, does the measurement theory hold up for a Taser-type weapon?

"Not unless the distances between the two firing prongs are set so they would always hit the body the same distance apart," Doberson said.

Besides, he added, the only definitive way to tell if electrocution was involved in JonBenet's death is to re-examine her body and look for "very characteristic" changes in skin tissue.

"You really can't tell from a photo," Doberson said.

IMO if it were a stun gun there would have been another mark on her face, not just one. The prongs aren't that far apart that the other wouldn't have hit her face esp if someone were holding it down on her long enough to create that mark we see.

 

[tipper]

Don't know the dates of the quotes you posted. I believe one is from 1998.

This is from 2002.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml
Dr. Michael Dobersen, a stun gun expert and coroner for neighboring Arapahoe County, also believes the marks on JonBenet were left by a stun gun. To prove it, he used one on the skin of an anesthetized pig. "The marks are similar in size, shape and color and are a certain distance apart," he says.

While there are some minor differences, both Doberson and Smit believe the experiment confirms a stun gun was used.

But the Boulder police are relying on another opinion, that of Dr. Werner Spitz. He thinks that pebbles or rocks on the floor caused the marks. Spitz has worked as a forensic pathologist in Michigan for nearly 50 years.

 

[Rainsong]

You haven't asnwered the questiobn.

let me recap:-

Rainsong said regarding the pineapple:-
[/font][/color]

Jayelles asked (note this is a simple question requiring a yes/no answer):-


Rainsong replied:-
[/font][/color]

I do not consider this an answer to my simple question. You could just as well have replied "My dog has fleas".

If you do not wish to asnwer the question please just say. I think you do not wish to say "Yes" because that would be tantamount to questioning the "party line". At the same time, if you say "No" then you will be seen to have double standards.

I think that is why you are giving non-answers and doing the little sidesteps.:dance:

You may not consider it an answer, but the question was addressed to me. I've answered it.

Rainsong

 

[Moab]

So remote it is nil?

Eat corn tonight. See how long it takes for it to pass through your digestive tract.

Rainsong

Had it last night for dinner...took about 2 hours. You try it tonight, k?

 

[tipper]

http://my.webmd.com/hw/irritable_bowel_syndrome/hw200330.asp

There are several methods to measure your bowel transit time. Each method uses a swallowed substance (called a food marker) that is eliminated in your stool without being digested.

…

How To Prepare

If you plan to use food markers (such as corn or beets) to measure bowel transit time at home, do not eat these foods for about a week before starting the test.

How It Is Done

…

Dye test or home test

For the dye test or home test, swallow two gelatin capsules filled with a dye called carmine red (Cochineal) or eat a large helping of seeds, beets, or corn kernels to serve as markers. Observe your subsequent bowel movements and record how many hours it takes after eating until the markers appear in your stool.

…

The time it takes for food to travel through the digestive tract is known as bowel transit time. Bowel transit time varies considerably, even when repeated on the same person. Generally, the first marker should appear in the stool about 14 to 24 hours after ingestion, and the last should appear within 36 to 48 hours. A bowel transit time that is much longer (72 hours or more) indicates slowed bowel function. Talk to your health professional if you do a bowel transit test at home and get abnormal results.

Bowel transit times are affected by certain medications and medical conditions.

• Very long transit times may be caused by a narrowing (stricture) in your intestine, an underactive thyroid gland (

• hypothyroidism), complications of diabetes, or Hirschsprung's disease.
  [*]Short transit times may be caused by inflammatory bowel disease, intestinal infections, lactose intolerance, or irritable bowel syndrome.
  

What Affects the Test

Factors that can interfere with your test and the accuracy of the results include the following:

• Women normally have longer bowel transit times than men.
• Constipation or diarrhea may result in an abnormally slow or fast bowel transit time.
• Reducing the amount of food you eat will result in a slower bowel transit time.

 

[Moab]

No. As I said in post #152, I think she ate it before going to the Whites. Given the small amount found I think she snarfed a piece just before leaving. I agree with Jayelles that candy and sweets are what kids would most likely head for while at a party. I don't know where you got the idea they didn't eat on Christmas. We know they had pancakes for breakfast. After that whatever they ate I assume they got on their own. I stopped making breakfast and lunch for my kids when they got old enough to do it for themselves.

Trouble with this is the didn't find candy and sweets in her stomach or digestive system. Post 193 says they didn't eat while opening presents; Post 188 only mentioned Burke eating a "bite" of breakfast; Pages 5-6 of DOI said they made a big "traditional" breakfast and JBR used to like to make faces on her pancakes, but that she was too busy playing to eat that day even after J&P cooked it; Post 207 has JR saying he doubted she could even open the fridge. Don't you think for a child who was obviously NOT self-sufficient her parents should have remembered feeding her SOMETHING that day? Or am I supposed to believe all she did was swipe "a" piece of pineapple from a fridge she couldn't even open on the way to the White's? And if she did have a whole bunch of other stuff to eat, then it kind of dispells the "repressed digestion" theory, doesn't it, because all of that other "stuff" she ate was long gone...just like RS's corn!

 

[Rainsong]

Had it last night for dinner...took about 2 hours. You try it tonight, k?

Fast mover.

Rainsong

 

[tipper]

Trouble with this is the didn't find candy and sweets in her stomach or digestive system. Post 193 says they didn't eat while opening presents; Post 188 only mentioned Burke eating a "bite" of breakfast; Pages 5-6 of DOI said they made a big "traditional" breakfast and JBR used to like to make faces on her pancakes, but that she was too busy playing to eat that day even after J&P cooked it; Post 207 has JR saying he doubted she could even open the fridge. Don't you think for a child who was obviously NOT self-sufficient her parents should have remembered feeding her SOMETHING that day? Or am I supposed to believe all she did was swipe "a" piece of pineapple from a fridge she couldn't even open on the way to the White's? And if she did have a whole bunch of other stuff to eat, then it kind of dispells the "repressed digestion" theory, doesn't it, because all of that other "stuff" she ate was long gone...just like RS's corn!

If she was eating stuff like candy canes they would have been dissolved before they got to her stomach

You seem to have misread DOI. It doesn't say she was too busy playing to eat. It says she was too busy to make the face. But she did help make the pancakes.

"JonBenet always loved to get into the act and was right under my elbows, standing on a stool by the stove, to help pour the pancake batter. She normally liked to make a Mickey Mouse shape with the batter and decorate it at the table with fruit and raisins to make the face come to life, but there wasn't time for that on this Christmas Day. Too many new things to play with."

Patsy also said in an interview that they DID have lunch but she didn't remember what it was.


TT: Okay. Did you have lunch that day?

PR: I'm sure we did.

TT: Okay, do you have any idea about... what did you have for lunch?

PR: I don't remember.

As far as John not being sure whether or not she could open the refrigerator, I have very little faith in most men's knowledge of their children's capabilities.

 

[Rainsong]

http://my.webmd.com/hw/irritable_bowel_syndrome/hw200330.asp

There are several methods to measure your bowel transit time. Each method uses a swallowed substance (called a food marker) that is eliminated in your stool without being digested.

The time it takes for food to travel through the digestive tract is known as bowel transit time. Bowel transit time varies considerably, even when repeated on the same person. Generally, the first marker should appear in the stool about 14 to 24 hours after ingestion, and the last should appear within 36 to 48 hours. A bowel transit time that is much longer (72 hours or more) indicates slowed bowel function. Talk to your health professional if you do a bowel transit test at home and get abnormal results.
(snip)
Bowel transit times are affected by certain medications and medical conditions.
]

Very interesting and informative post, Tipper. Thank you.

Rainsong