Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #7

[otto]

Golly! Ya think?

JMO

Haven't we known from October 7 that one reason Hamas attacked Israel was to disrupt diplomacy between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has announced that the meetings will be held regardless of Hamas interference.

 

[Friday Fan]

Oh another thing about the death numbers in Gaza: I wonder if it includes people who died from medical issues secondary due to the war? I think the UN often includes those with medical issues.

I see lots of crumbled buildings and Israel has admitted that have bombed South Gaza after telling people to evacuate to there. From Reuters: Why is Israel attacking south Gaza after telling people to go there?

I was reading a newsfeed from Times of India:
Gazans are now starting to wear ID bracelets and write names on the their children, so they can be identified. Bodies are still being put in mass graves.

Here this is the process: They take pictures of the bodies, blood samples and assign a number, so that families can later identify them. Bodies are quickly wrapped in shrouds, put in a truck, and immediately buried.

 

[Friday Fan]

The rallies were organized by students. Some of them Jewish. The police do have videos. I posted a link upthread.

Evidently, apartheid is a'ok with the Israeli government. Everybody else are "terrorists." Please note, Israel refuses to belong to the International Criminal Court and is now rejecting the UN. This bothers me greatly. More importantly to me, it bothers our Jewish and Muslim friends. All of them are highly educated immigrants who hold respected professional positions, especially those who hold professional degrees in the practice of medicine. I am shocked Israel isn't a party to the International Criminal Court.
JMO

In recent years, human rights organizations and legal experts have increasingly described Israel’s policies toward Palestinians as apartheid, adding to a longstanding debate about whether this is an accurate way to categorize the country’s practices.

Apartheid, a term originating from the South African government’s systematic oppression of Black residents, is a crime against humanity under international law. At its core, it refers to policies intended to elevate one racial group over another, with the goal of maintaining the dominant group’s hegemony.

In 1998, the International Criminal Court (to which Israel is not a party) defined it as “inhumane acts ... committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group ... and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

Neither is the United States. We withdrew from the ICC in 2002. Russia withdrew in 2016

International Criminal Court - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[dotr]

Israeli troops raid Gaza as Arab nations condemn bombardment

Israeli forces carried out their biggest Gaza ground attack in their 20-day-old war with Hamas overnight as anger grew in the Arab world over Israel's relentless bombardment of the besieged Palestinian territory.

www.reuters.com

By Nidal Al-Mughrabi and Henriette Chacar
October 26, 20236 rbbm

• ''LATEST DEVELOPMENTS:
• Hospital in south Gaza says 77 bodies brought in overnight
• Aid trickles into Gaza after U.N. fails to agree strategy
• Israeli ground forces make big incursion into Gaza, withdraw
• Netanyahu says ground invasion coming but will not say how''

"I will not elaborate on when, how or how many," he said in a televised update to citizens on Wednesday evening''.

''Hamas has threatened to kill some of the more than 200 hostages it brought back to Gaza, of whom Israel says more than half hold foreign passports, from 25 countries.

Other Iranian-backed groups have since attempted attacks on Israel elsewhere in the region; Western leaders fear that a high death toll among Palestinian civilians, who have already been killed in large numbers by Israeli air strikes, could spark a wider war.''

Blindfolded teddy bears displayed to represent Israeli children taken hostage​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-raid-military-gaza-1.7008586

 

[Friday Fan]

Israeli troops carry out an hourslong ground raid into Gaza before an expected wider incursion​

Mostly rural area north of Gaza City. Clearing area.
During the overnight raid, soldiers killed fighters and destroyed militant infrastructure and anti-tank missile launching positions, the military said.


Israel also said it had also carried out around 250 airstrikes across Gaza in the last 24 hours,


The Health Ministry in Hamas-ruled Gaza said Wednesday that more than 750 people were killed over the past 24 hours, higher than the 704 killed the previous day. The Associated Press couldn’t independently verify the death toll, and the ministry doesn’t distinguish between civilians and combatants. (Also I read in another article death tolls were provided by hospitals, which would imply that deaths could be from other conditions secondary to war)

More than half of Gaza’s primary health care facilities and roughly a third of its hospitals have stopped functioning, the World Health Organization said.

lack of medicine and clean water have led to “alarming” infection rates

Israeli troops briefly raid northern Gaza to 'prepare' for an expected full-scale incursion

Israeli troops and tanks briefly raided northern Gaza overnight, the military said Thursday, engaging with Hamas fighters.

apnews.com

Another article with more details about Wednesday night's limited raid:

IDF tanks, troops push into Gaza in limited raid ahead of ground offensive​

Troops struck “numerous” terrorists, infrastructure, and anti-tank guided missile launch positions, and “operated to prepare the battlefield,” the army said.

Soldiers returned to Israeli territory after the raid, the IDF added.

IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said the operation lasted a few hours, and no soldiers were hurt.




Navy forces also struck a Hamas surface-to-air missile launch position that was situated next to a mosque and kindergarten, in Khan Younis, the army said.

10,000 sites belonging to Hamas and other terror groups have been struck

The death toll on both sides is expected to rise significantly once Israel launches its ground offensive and begins entering cities.

IDF tanks, troops push into Gaza in limited raid ahead of ground offensive - The Times of Israel

Military says it struck Hamas sites, operatives in hours-long 'targeted raid' before returning infantry to Israeli side of border, as larger ground assault awaits

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Friday Fan]

May have been posted earlier. He is believed to be in Gaza. He is one of Israel's main targets. He is the head of Hamas military brigade. He helped turn Hamas from a political movement to a military movement.

Mohammed Deif, Che Guevara to Gazans, Bin Laden to Israelis, Faces Last Stand​

Little is known for certain about Mohammed Deif. That's by design for Hamas' Al-Qassam Military Brigades supreme commander, whose nom de guerre means "guest" in an apparent reference to his frequently shifting location.

Apparently, he is missing a few body parts. He isn't very visible. Many don't know what he looks like, but he is very likely in Gaza.

General consensus is that he will not survive a ground war.


(But MOO: I'm sure there is someone else ready to take his place)

Mohammed Deif, Che Guevara to Gaza, Bin Laden to Israel, ...

Hamas leader Deif has evaded the Israelis for decades. Can he escape one more time?

www.newsweek.com

Hamas military chief's father's house bombed, brother killed: Who is Mohammed Deif?​

Oct 11, 2023 11:08 AM IST
Several of his family members, including his father, brother and children were killed in Khan Yunis by the Israelis on Oct 10, reports claimed.

Hamas military chief's father's house bombed, brother killed: Who is Mohammed Deif?

In video messages, Mohammed Deif remains masked and only his shadow is seen. As Israel bombed his father's residence, his whereabouts were unknown.

www.hindustantimes.com

Terror boss survived assassination attempts before Israel massacre

It all started with an ominous voice ordering hundreds of Hamas terrorists over the border to launch a bloodthirsty assault on Israel that has seen more than 700 Israelis massacred so far.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Pitsleuth]

Not all Gaza hospitals are still running. I don't find it interesting, I find it incredibly inhumane.

JMO

Red Cross witnesses ‘utter chaos’ at Gaza hospitals as supplies run critically low

Experts say medical centres rapidly running out of fuel and medical supplies as injured and displaced people seek refuge

www.theguardian.com

I don’t see anywhere in the article where it confirms that any hospitals have shut down due to lack of fuel. I’m happy to be corrected though.
JMO.

 

[Vern]

It's complicated by the fact that Hamas are also Palestinian refugees. It has to do with the definition of "Palestinian Refugee", which is a unique designation. If you are the descendant of a forcefully removed Palestinian in what is now Israel, you are considered a Palestinian refugee. This program was set up in 1948. I'm sure many Hamas members fit this designation. The overwhelming number of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank area refugees. If a Palestinian obtains Israeli citizenship or citizenship of another country, they are no longer refugees.

So much suffering could have been prevented if the UN would have forced a mandatory two state solution when they partitioned Palestine into Israel and Palestine. However, it was "recommended" and it wasn't mandatory. I hear the Palestinians didn't want it. And may have fired the first shot in the war 1958 war. But I also hear the Israelis (not sure who to believe) Either way, it allowed a war to break out with no real way to stop the war. The Palestinians lost.

If the UN had teeth, the war could have been stopped and there would have been a two-state solution in 1948. Palestinians were forced to abandoned their land and were placed in Gaza and the West Bank. They were given refugee status.

Palestinian refugees - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel was one day old. One day.

To be certain, since the inception of Israel the stated goal of the PLO, now also Hamas, has been "not one square inch" aka "From the Jordan River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free".

14 May 1948: Israeli Declaration of Independance

15 May 1948: Arab-Israeli War - Morning: Syria, Egypt, Iraq and (Trans)Jordan military forces enter and take control of the Arab areas and attack Jewish Settlements and Israeli Forces. As a direct result of this war - that Israel did not start, the victor (Israel) managed to retain the area set aside for the Jewish State and had won around 60% of the Arab state lands.

A Two-State soloution is the most widely proposed as the "ideal", but if it ever is achieved, I don't expect their neighbours to kick back and be content with it. History has shown time and time again, that they will not be. They were a mere one day old when their neighbours invaded them and got their butts kicked in 1948. I'm not so sure Israel will ever be as willing to be as generous as the were prior to October 7th --- there'll be some hella caveats on anything like this now. Another lovely gift to the Palestinian poeple from Hamas.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1np9bm

 

[Mo Thuairim]

I don’t see anywhere in the article where it confirms that any hospitals have shut down due to lack of fuel. I’m happy to be corrected though.
JMO.

Since the start of the Israeli siege two weeks ago, six hospitals in Gaza have been forced to close due to a lack of fuel, the World Health Organization said on Tuesday.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-war-wednesday-intl-hnk/index.html

 

[Vern]

One thing everyone must remember about the Gaza death toll from the Hamas health ministry -That number is believed to include Hamas terrorists who were killed inside Israel as they slaughtered civilians, and the victims of Islamic Jihad rocket misfire at the Al-Ahli Hospital.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1717281398724198896

And the victims of all the other rockets Hamas Rockets that are misfiring: 1 in 5 are doing so.

 

[Pitsleuth]

Since the start of the Israeli siege two weeks ago, six hospitals in Gaza have been forced to close due to a lack of fuel, the World Health Organization said on Tuesday.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-war-wednesday-intl-hnk/index.html

I stand corrected. Thank you for providing a link!

 

[Friday Fan]

Israel was one day old. One day.

To be certain, since the inception of Israel the stated goal of the PLO, now also Hamas, has been "not one square inch" aka "From the Jordan River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free".

14 May 1948: Israeli Declaration of Independance

15 May 1948: Arab-Israeli War - Morning: Syria, Egypt, Iraq and (Trans)Jordan military forces enter and take control of the Arab areas and attack Jewish Settlements and Israeli Forces. As a direct result of this war - that Israel did not start, the victor (Israel) managed to retain the area set aside for the Jewish State and had won around 60% of the Arab state lands.

A Two-State soloution is the most widely proposed as the "ideal", but if it ever is achieved, I don't expect their neighbours to kick back and be content with it. History has shown time and time again, that they will not be. They were a mere one day old when their neighbours invaded them and got their butts kicked in 1948. I'm not so sure Israel will ever be as willing to be as generous as the were prior to October 7th --- there'll be some hella caveats on anything like this now. Another lovely gift to the Palestinian poeple from Hamas.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1np9bm

Six months earlier:

29 November 1947 The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal by the United Nations, which recommended a partition of Mandatory Palestine at the end of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly adopted the Plan as Resolution 181 (II).[1]

The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements, Palestinian nationalism and Jewish nationalism, or Zionism.[2][3]

They (the Arabs) announced their intention to take all necessary measures to prevent the implementation of the resolution.[13][14][15][16] Subsequently a civil war broke out in Palestine[17] and the plan was not implemented.[18]

Retrospect​

In 2011, Mahmoud Abbas stated that the 1947 Arab rejection of United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a mistake he hoped to rectify.[161]

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It would have been nice if the partition plan had teeth, but it didn't. At least Palestine would have been a nation and could have been held accountable for their actions as a nation. Instead, the majority of Palestinians were relegated to refugee status.

__________________________________________________
I don't hold out much hope for any two state solution.
Palestinians won't want it, even if Israel offers it.

 

[Friday Fan]

And the victims of all the other rockets Hamas Rockets that are misfiring: 1 in 5 are doing so.

I also believe they may include hospital deaths due to "secondary causes". For instance, if a baby can't get formula or clean water for formula and gets sick and dies etc....Or infections from dirty water...At least, that's may impression of how this has been reported in conflict areas in the past.

I think there was this type of reporting in the Iraq War. So, there was back and forth regarding Iraqis killed in combat, Iraqis killed by Americans, Iraqis killed by other Iraqis and Iraqis dying of natural causes....

 

[Vern]

5,087 Includes all of Gaza. (I believe 1500 more were killed since this article)

2,000 are children https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-war-tuesday-intl-hnk/index.html

Israel: 1,400 212 kidnapped

The number killed in Israel has held steady.

Israel-Palestine: Gaza death toll passes 5,000 with no ceasefire in sight

The number of people killed in Gaza has exceeded 5,000 according to latest reports from de facto authorities there, amid intensifying Israeli airstrikes in response to Hamas attacks, while humanitarians repeated urgent calls for a ceasefire and more aid convoys.

news.un.org

Given that the Gazan Health Ministry (Hamas) also claimed that Israel killed 300-500 in a hospital airstrike that was actually a failed rocket from their own arsenal ... and their count went up by those numbers that day, but has since been shown to more accurately put at "a few dozen were killed" (every one of which is horrible BTW) based upon footage filmed by Palestinians at the scene ...

I'm very averse to relying on numbers provided by the PHM who've also been historicly known to overestimate their figures. They've also been known to conflate their counts of "fightig age males" by counting armed fighters who are killed amongst the "civilian count" based on "Gaza doesn't have a military so even they are actually civilians".

When talking of the "number killed in Israel has held steady" are you speaking of the murder victims of October 7th before Israel even declared war upon Hamas? They just found 4 more of them today: an estimated 200-300 still remain unaccounted for, so I'm pretty sure it will even rise some more yet. Also, notice how Israel's IDF casualty count continues to rise ... that's precisely because Israel evacuated their citizens from the areas being struck by Hamas and Hezbollah and only has actual "fighters" in the immediate area of action .... exactly the opposite of Hamas who is holding/preventing their own citizens from leaving those areas. Nice eh.

In any case, casualty comparison has nothing to do with the Law of Armed Conflict, the Geneva Conventions or the conduct of war. "Proportionality" is based upon the requirement to strike legitimate military targets in the execution of war while minimizing civilian casualties as much as possible. Israel has been attempting to do so since day 1 by using precision munitions and JDAMs, by roof-knocking, by advising civilians to evacuate an areas they will be targetting, by holding off firing a rocket launch sites placed near schools, mosques until those places are empty for the day, etc. This is 'proportionality' and 'discriminate targetting' (targetting which discriminates between legit & non-legit targets). All of which is in accoradane with the Geneva Coventions.

Each and every rocket Hamas fires does no such thing; their rockets do not discriminate nor do they employ any sort of targetting protocol other than trying to aim for civilian built up areas in attempts to maximize Israeli civilian casulaty numbers. Each and every one of those firings is a war crime. Sorry, the Israeli death count is lower but that's only by pure luck.

As well, Israel contnues to target legitimate military targets in the south: taking out houses being used to store ammunition & wepaons, housing Hamas leaders, tunnels etc when they have to. Just because they asked Palestinian civilians to evacute south does not mean they will not take out legitimate miltary targets in the south. Their focus however is on the north first in order to prep for the ground entry that will happen there. And, their focus has never been, and will never be, on targetting civilians. That's the difference between a professional military force who actually acts IAW the Conventions and the LoAC and terrorists.

 

[Simply Southern]

I've been scanning the news for today's update from UN and WHO on today's fuel status. Both threatened fuel would run out last night and all hospitals and aid would shut down.

Seem to be silent today ....hum.

The UN relief agency employes over 13k staff on Gaza. They provide 80% of fuel, food, schools, housing, shelters and medical supplies for the residents. This is a rather large, long term funded project by the UN.

Are they the only legitimate employer in Gaza?
What happens to the employees once aid runs out. Are they Gaza citizens or will they return to their home country?

Moo...

 

[Simply Southern]

Six months earlier:

29 November 1947 The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal by the United Nations, which recommended a partition of Mandatory Palestine at the end of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly adopted the Plan as Resolution 181 (II).[1]

The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements, Palestinian nationalism and Jewish nationalism, or Zionism.[2][3]

They (the Arabs) announced their intention to take all necessary measures to prevent the implementation of the resolution.[13][14][15][16] Subsequently a civil war broke out in Palestine[17] and the plan was not implemented.[18]

Retrospect​

In 2011, Mahmoud Abbas stated that the 1947 Arab rejection of United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a mistake he hoped to rectify.[161]

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It would have been nice if the partition plan had teeth, but it didn't. At least Palestine would have been a nation and could have been held accountable for their actions as a nation. Instead, the majority of Palestinians were relegated to refugee status.

__________________________________________________
I don't hold out much hope for any two state solution.
Palestinians won't want it, even if Israel offers it.

I don't see Palestine becoming a state when 80% of their resources are supplied by the UN, for years. Moo...the UN is basically funding this territory.

Gaza has received billions of dollars, over years, from the UN and others, to improve infrastructure, housing, education, build desalvation plants, and more.

An open checkbook imo, no accountability from the citizens/government of Gaza to establish statehood.

Rather, I see billions going to support citizens who support and chose a terrorists organization and are satisfied with free food, housing, education, medical care pouring into their borders, while promoting the killing of Christians and Jews.

Why should the citizens of Gaza rise up against Hamas? I see no reason, the world is providing all their needs and Hamas is employing them to kill in the name of Islam.

All moo...

 

[Chimera]

Biden says he has 'no confidence' in Palestinian death count

U.S. President Joe Biden said on Wednesday he has "no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using" for the death toll in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, where the health ministry says over 6,500 have been killed in Israeli attacks. Biden was asked at a White House press conference...

www.yahoo.com

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden said on Wednesday he has "no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using" for the death toll in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, where the health ministry says over 6,500 have been killed in Israeli attacks.
"What they say to me is I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed. I'm sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war," Biden said.
Emphasis mine

 

[Friday Fan]

I don't see Palestine becoming a state when 80% of their resources are supplied by the UN, for years. Moo...the UN is basically funding this territory.

Gaza has received billions of dollars, over years, from the UN and others, to improve infrastructure, housing, education, build desalvation plants, and more.

An open checkbook imo, no accountability from the citizens/government of Gaza to establish statehood.

Rather, I see billions going to support citizens who support and chose a terrorists organization and are satisfied with free food, housing, education, medical care pouring into their borders, while promoting the killing of Christians and Jews.

Why should the citizens of Gaza rise up against Hamas? I see no reason, the world is providing all their needs and Hamas is employing them to kill in the name of Islam.

All moo...

Yeah, it's pretty hopeless....MOO

That ship set sail long ago....

 

[Vern]

Interestling, back in September Israel's foreign minister said something very similar "Israel will not submit to external dictates on the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,”

30 years after Oslo, Israeli foreign minister rejects international dictates on Palestinian issue

Israel’s foreign minister has said that Israel would not cave in to foreign dictates on its treatment of the Palestinians.

apnews.com

"Hamas doesn't want any state ... [or] any agreements with Israel, and is not ready to recognize the Oslo agreement.

"Does the Israeli government want that?

"The current government? No."

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/yossi-beilin-hamas-israel-war-1.6991612

So I guess they agree on something.

JMO

I can't say that I blame them. The PA and Hamas have proven time and time again that they will not be satsfied until they push Israel into the sea aka "Not one square inch; from the river to the sea Palestine will be free".

 

[Chimera]

I don't see Palestine becoming a state when 80% of their resources are supplied by the UN, for years. Moo...the UN is basically funding this territory.

Gaza has received billions of dollars, over years, from the UN and others, to improve infrastructure, housing, education, build desalvation plants, and more.

An open checkbook imo, no accountability from the citizens/government of Gaza to establish statehood.

Rather, I see billions going to support citizens who support and chose a terrorists organization and are satisfied with free food, housing, education, medical care pouring into their borders, while promoting the killing of Christians and Jews.

Why should the citizens of Gaza rise up against Hamas ? I see no reason, the world is providing all their needs and Hamas is employing them to kill in the name of Islam.

All moo...

Emphasis mine.
This ^^^
Sadly, it would be nice to see more of a backbone and determination to break free from the Hamas oppressor, but the bolded is on point !
All we and other nations are doing is funding more terrorism, imo.
Omo.