JBR, PR and UMI

[OneLove]

...frantically hoping the phone would ring. Those hopes finally dashed when...

Are you talking about the people that tried to fly away that very morning and had NO intention of being around for ANY phone calls??

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Are you talking about the people that tried to fly away that very morning and had NO intention of being around for ANY phone calls??

I find your sincerity underwhelming. There's no way you can prove your claim that they had no intention of being around for any phone call.

Further, 'tried to fly away' isn't at all what I read.

This is simple, shallow fiction. Tabloid stuff.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The only political naivete is in the RN, HOTYH. OneLove is right. The person who wrote the RN was clearly trying to play on popular fears.

This is false. Its more than just a little politically naive, its politically neglegent. There is no serious discussion on this forum anywhere as to events from 1996. Its not just my idea, either. Another poster started a thread on the subject, and your single post therein amounted to a brushoff.

Not just your fault. There has been no investigator to approach the political ideologies except VanZandt. His observations were valid but his interpretations, like yours, are comfortably wrong.

 

[OneLove]

I find your sincerity underwhelming. There's no way you can prove your claim that they had no intention of being around for any phone call.

Further, 'tried to fly away' isn't at all what I read.

This is simple, shallow fiction. Tabloid stuff.

Then why don't you give us your take on the phone call to ready the plane to take them to Atlanta that morning? I'm interested, really.

 

[OneLove]

This is false. Its more than just a little politically naive, its politically neglegent. There is no serious discussion on this forum anywhere as to events from 1996.
QUOTE]

That's because such a discussion would be pointless. The ransom note was not only high drama, it was BAD high drama. It reads as though the author watched too many daytime soap operas. Well, except for the part where this seriously dangerous and high-minded faction *RESPECTED* John's business.

 

[OneLove]

There's no way you can prove your claim that they had no intention of being around for any phone call.
.

And of course, for those of us who have spent considerable time in courtrooms, we know that "not being able to prove" is a far piece from innocent of the charge.

Very unseemly wording, that. It almost implies guilt. Rephrase?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That's because such a discussion would be pointless. The ransom note was not only high drama, it was BAD high drama. It reads as though the author watched too many daytime soap operas. Well, except for the part where this seriously dangerous and high-minded faction *RESPECTED* John's business.

Thats a brilliant strategy, meeting the RN with ridicule. That'll show that darn RN author who's boss! Can't fool us, we're on to the soap opera connection. Its only a matter of time.

They can run, but can't hide from your relentless biting sarcasm. Eventually they'll give themselves up just to save themselves from the constant humiliation and embarassment of having written that ridiculous note.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And of course, for those of us who have spent considerable time in courtrooms, we know that "not being able to prove" is a far piece from innocent of the charge.

Very unseemly wording, that. It almost implies guilt. Rephrase?

Is this another way of saying that you're unable to show what you claimed, that they had no intention of waiting for the call? And you just made it up?

 

[WHITEFANG]

Hmmm, another case of UMI perhaps??

This is some sick whacko.

OneLove. Whatever you believe, I SUPPORT IT and you. Just leave me alone now, if you don't mind. I'll leave you alone, too. Just take it easy. Take care. Hope everything works out for you.

 

[MurriFlower]

This is some sick whacko.

OneLove. Whatever you believe, I SUPPORT IT and you. Just leave me alone now, if you don't mind. I'll leave you alone, too. Just take it easy. Take care. Hope everything works out for you.

:waitasec:

 

[WHITEFANG]

Please don't waste my time with that nonsense.

Super, you are not the focus of all these posts. Some of the comments are centered on the ideas, some on others' positions.

 

[WHITEFANG]

:waitasec:

Sorry. This one is not well. Not all there. Not on the same field. Understand? We are not dealing with a sane situation. In real life.

 

[BOESP]

I find your sincerity underwhelming. There's no way you can prove your claim that they had no intention of being around for any phone call.

Further, 'tried to fly away' isn't at all what I read.

This is simple, shallow fiction. Tabloid stuff.

If you haven't already, you might want to read "Death of Innocence" by John and Patsy Ramsey. John describes the "leaving Boulder to fly to Atlanta" plan.

 

[BBB167893]

Its no better, SD. Beheading a small child wasn't a popular fear. Executing a child wasn't a popular fear.

I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say, HOTYH. Kidnapping a child was a popular fear. Terrorism was a popular fear. By using terms like "foreign faction" and "beheading," the writer was clearly attempting to combine the two.

Kidnapping for ransom was no more or less popular at that time.

But it is a popular fear, HOTYH. It has been since at least the 1970s.

That the RN author wanted to appear to play on popular fears can't be substantiated.

Oh, no?

Maybe it would help you to list some popular fears, and then decide if the ransom note had any.

HOTYH, you just made my day, brother! I'd be happy to!

1) Pedophiles. Everybody's afraid of them, and to hear the news and entertainment media tell it, there's one around every corner. Shows like To Catch a Predator and Law & Order: Special Victims Unit would not be as popular as they are if not for those fears.

The RN itself does not play to that. However, the child's body was done up to suggest a pedophile, specifically a sadistic-control pedophile.

2) Ransom kidnapping. Ever since the 1970s, the idea of children being grabbed by strangers and held for large sums of money has gripped the US. I can't count how many "movies-of-the-week" and TV shows and comic books have dealt with this issue. There was a movie out at the time this case occurred that dealt with this very subject: Ransom starring Mel Gibson. Alan Moore's groundbreaking 1986 graphic novel Watchmen contains a horrific depiction of a ransom kidnapping and what happens when the kidnapper realizes he's grabbed the wrong person.

The RN itself plays to this VERY strongly. For one thing, it's a RANSOM note. It demands a large sum of money to be delivered in a very stereotypical (some might say Hollywood) fashion and makes the usual promises to deliver the girl safely upon payment.

3) Islamic terrorism. Americans first became aware of jihadist violence around 1979, when Iran was taken over by the Ayatollah Khomeini, who used his new power to spread Islamic violence across the Middle East, Europe, Asia and the Americas. Groups like Hizbollah and HAMAS sprang up, and it seemed like there were attacks regularly. The car bomb in Lebanon 1983; the Achille Lauro hijacking in 1985; the bombing in W. Germany in 1986 by Libyan agents, and the list goes on and on.

Does the RN play to this? To a degree, yes. The note does not state it specifically (there's no mention of Allah, for instance) but seems to imply it through the use of "foreign faction" and "beheading." Even before September 11, 2001 it was common knowledge among middle Americans that they chop off heads in the Middle East.

On a final note, it's common for killer parents to deflect suspicion (Or TRY to) by playing to popular fears. Darlie Routier did it when she blamed a masked home-invader. Susan Smith famously tried to play on popular fears of young black men in the South when she described the man who supposedly carjacked her and took off with her sons as little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking gangsta.

I think I've made my point!

Do you really believe the RN author thought the RN would appear as terrorism?

It would be more accurate to say I believe the RN author was throwing anything and everything at the wall to see what would stick.

 

[BBB167893]

No humor. I would appreciate the input of any parents who have experienced the indescribable brutality that we, that I, pontificate on without a hint what it was really like.

You might be sorry you said that! Because the parents who have experienced it, from what I can tell, want nothing to do with them!

One of the most vocal is Marc Klaas, whose daughter, we all remember, was kidnapped and murdered. Here's what he had to say at a White House conference on murdered children (which the Rs no-showed):

"I regret all the efforts the Ramsey, along with their attorneys, have made to try to look as if they're in the same situation as all the other families who have lost children."

And that's just for openers! He's been very vocal in his feelings toward them. There's an archived chat here on Websleuths with him you might want to check out. if my information is accurate, the Van Dams and Erin Runnion were at that conference, and they didn't disagree with him.

It might also help if the Ramseys' lawyer didn't threaten the man on national TV!

 

[OneLove]

<<parts respectfully snipped>>

One of the most vocal is Marc Klaas, whose daughter, we all remember, was kidnapped and murdered.

It might also help if the Ramseys' lawyer didn't threaten the man on national TV!

Talk about shooting ones self in the foot!

 

[BBB167893]

Talk about shooting ones self in the foot!

You're not kidding. That was one of the formative moments of my conversion.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say, HOTYH. Kidnapping a child was a popular fear. Terrorism was a popular fear. By using terms like "foreign faction" and "beheading," the writer was clearly attempting to combine the two.



But it is a popular fear, HOTYH. It has been since at least the 1970s.



Oh, no?



HOTYH, you just made my day, brother! I'd be happy to!

1) Pedophiles. Everybody's afraid of them, and to hear the news and entertainment media tell it, there's one around every corner. Shows like To Catch a Predator and Law & Order: Special Victims Unit would not be as popular as they are if not for those fears.

The RN itself does not play to that. However, the child's body was done up to suggest a pedophile, specifically a sadistic-control pedophile.

Objection, irrelephant.

This is not where we started or what we were talking about. You spun the topic, SD.

Now then, does the RN play on popular fears or not? What were popular fears, and did the RN have any?

2) Ransom kidnapping. Ever since the 1970s, the idea of children being grabbed by strangers and held for large sums of money has gripped the US. I can't count how many "movies-of-the-week" and TV shows and comic books have dealt with this issue. There was a movie out at the time this case occurred that dealt with this very subject: Ransom starring Mel Gibson. Alan Moore's groundbreaking 1986 graphic novel Watchmen contains a horrific depiction of a ransom kidnapping and what happens when the kidnapper realizes he's grabbed the wrong person.

The RN itself plays to this VERY strongly. For one thing, it's a RANSOM note. It demands a large sum of money to be delivered in a very stereotypical (some might say Hollywood) fashion and makes the usual promises to deliver the girl safely upon payment.

OK RN played on popular fear of kidnapping for ransom.

3) Islamic terrorism. Americans first became aware of jihadist violence around 1979, when Iran was taken over by the Ayatollah Khomeini, who used his new power to spread Islamic violence across the Middle East, Europe, Asia and the Americas. Groups like Hizbollah and HAMAS sprang up, and it seemed like there were attacks regularly. The car bomb in Lebanon 1983; the Achille Lauro hijacking in 1985; the bombing in W. Germany in 1986 by Libyan agents, and the list goes on and on.

Does the RN play to this? To a degree, yes. The note does not state it specifically (there's no mention of Allah, for instance) but seems to imply it through the use of "foreign faction" and "beheading." Even before September 11, 2001 it was common knowledge among middle Americans that they chop off heads in the Middle East.

On a final note, it's common for killer parents to deflect suspicion (Or TRY to) by playing to popular fears. Darlie Routier did it when she blamed a masked home-invader. Susan Smith famously tried to play on popular fears of young black men in the South when she described the man who supposedly carjacked her and took off with her sons as little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking gangsta.

I think I've made my point!

Islam doesn't hold the patents on foreign factions or beheadings. There is no "islamic" terrorism apparent in the ransom note. Not a single 'Allah' or 'God Willing'. Do you think PR was protecting islam by omitting these tell-alls?

Was there any other popular fear in the ransom note that isn't a claim or merely a hunch? You've got kidnapping for ransom right now but thats it.



It would be more accurate to say I believe the RN author was throwing anything and everything at the wall to see what would stick.

Wildcard. This claim can be applied to any set of phenomenon, requires no proof or explanation, and absolves the need to understand anything or have anything be part of a rational set of events. Its too easy.

Are you saying that whoever wrote the ransom note, intruder or PR, presented a paradox on purpose?

 

[MurriFlower]

I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say, HOTYH. Kidnapping a child was a popular fear. Terrorism was a popular fear. By using terms like "foreign faction" and "beheading," the writer was clearly attempting to combine the two.
But it is a popular fear, HOTYH. It has been since at least the 1970s.

Oh, no?

HOTYH, you just made my day, brother! I'd be happy to!

1) Pedophiles. Everybody's afraid of them, and to hear the news and entertainment media tell it, there's one around every corner. Shows like To Catch a Predator and Law & Order: Special Victims Unit would not be as popular as they are if not for those fears.

The RN itself does not play to that. However, the child's body was done up to suggest a pedophile, specifically a sadistic-control pedophile.

2) Ransom kidnapping. Ever since the 1970s, the idea of children being grabbed by strangers and held for large sums of money has gripped the US. I can't count how many "movies-of-the-week" and TV shows and comic books have dealt with this issue. There was a movie out at the time this case occurred that dealt with this very subject: Ransom starring Mel Gibson. Alan Moore's groundbreaking 1986 graphic novel Watchmen contains a horrific depiction of a ransom kidnapping and what happens when the kidnapper realizes he's grabbed the wrong person.

The RN itself plays to this VERY strongly. For one thing, it's a RANSOM note. It demands a large sum of money to be delivered in a very stereotypical (some might say Hollywood) fashion and makes the usual promises to deliver the girl safely upon payment.

3) Islamic terrorism. Americans first became aware of jihadist violence around 1979, when Iran was taken over by the Ayatollah Khomeini, who used his new power to spread Islamic violence across the Middle East, Europe, Asia and the Americas. Groups like Hizbollah and HAMAS sprang up, and it seemed like there were attacks regularly. The car bomb in Lebanon 1983; the Achille Lauro hijacking in 1985; the bombing in W. Germany in 1986 by Libyan agents, and the list goes on and on.

Does the RN play to this? To a degree, yes. The note does not state it specifically (there's no mention of Allah, for instance) but seems to imply it through the use of "foreign faction" and "beheading." Even before September 11, 2001 it was common knowledge among middle Americans that they chop off heads in the Middle East.

On a final note, it's common for killer parents to deflect suspicion (Or TRY to) by playing to popular fears. Darlie Routier did it when she blamed a masked home-invader. Susan Smith famously tried to play on popular fears of young black men in the South when she described the man who supposedly carjacked her and took off with her sons as little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking gangsta.

I think I've made my point!



It would be more accurate to say I believe the RN author was throwing anything and everything at the wall to see what would stick.

What was promised in the RN:
Kidnapping
Executing
Denied Remains
Beheading

What actually happened:
Head Bash
Garrotting
Sexual Abuse
Body left behind

It's as if it's two different crimes. Don't you think it might have been two different people? One wrote the note and set it up as a kidnapping or extortion. The other did the killing. Bit of a lack of communication there. What'd be the chances of getting a 'helper' to do the kidnapping and instead he goes off a murders the kid? Ruins the whole plan.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Mastermind to Igor: You did WHAT??