Jose Baez Releasing New Book!!

[Intermezzo]

BBM
The article was very interesting.

Are you saying that you were a juror in FCA's trial or are you posing an "if I were" statement?

Ditto.

 

[logicalgirl]

Thanks for the slap! You are right that I didn't take advantage of taking the time to educate one person that may have communicated to others. Jeez, this could be a thread of it's own perhaps. I too will go to bed and have dreams of how I could have addressed this - but it just didn't fit into the discussion I thought..............so I need to think more how to do such to educate others without being confrontational.

:hug: and thanks!

No no - that was not at all a slap! I feel so badly that you misunderstood - that was me indicating I was still in a fighting mood with Baez and his pre-rlease statements - and my banging my own head because I have not disengaged! I know how deeply you care about Caylee and what happened to her so please acccept my deep apologies - I was not meaning you should have done anything different than you did.

Family is so important and you were there and could make your own judgement call about what you needed to do. I can only express my own opinion and it is NEVER meant to indicate that I know what another should do or think. So sorry atthelake - I was NOT calling you out!!!

 

[logicalgirl]

Welcome back from your trip!

JMO but I think it is normal to not want to cause a confrontation about this case, which it seems like you wanted to avoid.

You have not failed Caylee. Not at all. Please stop beating yourself up.:blowkiss:

Bayouland thank you for making this statement last night after I left the board. My comment was not directed at atthelake meaning she should have done something else than she did. It was meant to indicate that she indeed a better person and that I, after watching Baez on Dr Drew, am still yanking my own chain all over the place and am cross with myself that I haven't flipped back to some level of objectivity yet.

NOT a criticism at all.

 

[logicalgirl]

This is so true and I agree with every part of your statement. I read a very interesting article from the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m...a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=all

And it hit me that The Anthonys probably knew something was wrong with CA when she was young, but didn't know she was a psychopath. So many traits of the the child in the article reminded me of CA. This whole family tiptoes around their son just like The Anthonys tiptoed around Casey making sure to never confront her of her fake job and fake nanny or ever upset her in fear of her temper tantrums. In this case the family was wise enough to test their son over and over again because they knew something wasn't right.

The boy in the article demanded and took what he wanted, but as he got older he used lies and manipulation to get what he wanted. The doctors making up the study said psychopaths will do ANYTHING to get what they want, ANYTHING. So even though the jurors could not fathom a woman would kill her child to go out with her boyfriend, it's a real fact that it's reasonable in a psychopath's mind to kill her child to go on a date.

I just hope CA never kills another child again because as a former CA juror, I don't think I could ever live with the guilt that my choice (which only took 1 day by the way and without ever looking at one shred on evidence) was the key facror in murdering a human being.

What a fantastic groundbreaking article which I have printed out and will keep. I have always believed it was FCA not CA who ran that household and we saw how FCA's reactions were always so calculated. I know there are many many people who will never accept what I have - that FCA is a psychopath and that treatment for children is in the very early stages.

I think the first comment in the article points to what a huge gap there is to close in first understanding and second finding blame - the comment asks why if they had this problem child did the family have two more children? Ack!

Thank you so much for bringing this article to the board.

 

[logicalgirl]

MaryB- Thanks for the NYT link--I just read the article and it was fascinating.

How awful for a normal parent to have such a child (the mom seems normal, anyway), and how awful for the rest for us if an equally whacked mother is raising such a child. The Ants come marching, and all that.

Not that I am sympathetic to CA for her behavior but which came first - the chicken or the egg is a question I ask myself.

 

[SallyLu]

Thank you for the link to a very interesting article MaryB.

I do think the Ants knew there was something wrong with FCA as a young child and they went into survival mode in order to cope BUT their behavior after the death of little Caylee is beyond belief. The way they acted to support their daughter and drag everyone else down is beyond skanky behavior.

What does Wolfmom say - "God isn't finished yet" I soooo agree!

 

[logicalgirl]

Thank you for the link to a very interesting article MaryB.

I do think the Ants knew there was something wrong with FCA as a young child and they went into survival mode in order to cope BUT their behavior after the death of little Caylee is beyond belief. The way they acted to support their daughter and drag everyone else down is beyond skanky behavior.

What does Wolfmom say - "God isn't finished yet" I soooo agree!

Thanks for adding this comment because it reminded me that I should have added to mine. While I strive to see some understanding of "why" people do what they do" I never intend it to excuse anyone, and in this case we mean CA, to give her a "get out of jail free" card. CA's behavior was bizarre and unacceptable and she is cannot escape responsibility for what she did.

In the sentencing phase of capital murders there is a section that considers mitigating factors. You may have had a terrible childhood, but it is never held as a consideration in sentencing.

 

[BigMomma]

First, I want to straight up apologize again if I have offened anybody or made anybody angry by something I may have said out of context-That wasn't the intent at all, it wasn't meant to be taken in any such a way-I think we are all seeing beyond red over this book and tensions are running high-so high it has spilled over into heated discussions in our own home, hasn't been pretty. I guess we should have never watched the show-lesson learned. Thanks to JB:banghead:

I don't think I have ever spoke of this and maybe it is immaterial, but I do have 1 highly manipulative grown child that I do not speak about. Although the circumstances are very different, we have lived the horror of being taken advantaged of -to the tune of over $180k over a period of time. Very normal childhood, went to church, had all the perks of joining up in baseball, football, skating, skiing, camping-you name it, we did it all, but somewhere along the line he changed and became a somewhat hothead at 17 and by the time he moved out at 18 and would come by to visit, he became slowly manipulative.
1st it was borrowing money here and there to get by, then he started losing good jobs because of his attitude-where he got this is clueless on me to this day. He'd use his other siblings, but then he started to use my husband, first for little things, then it got bigger and bigger until one day his foot went down(I had stopped giving in years prior) and it was then we both got the heck of life and were physically abused, not once, but 3 different times in 1 year to where he almost broke my leg the last go round just because I had asked him to download some Driver CD's onto a new computer-Yes, we walked on eggshells around him when he'd come for a visit-Where this behavior came from I have no idea except to guess maybe from his friends because this type of behavior was never around our inviroment while all the children were growing up. There was never any indication of a problem until he was of age and although it was mentioned time and time again that he should go for counseling, it fell on his deaf ears because he knows best, nothing wrong with him, I could not drag him off because he was of age-I probably can call him a narcississt as well because he has almost the same traits as FCA except he never did what she did, some things are very similar-the over the top stories that sound true, but of course are not. I caught on years ago, but my DH is the type that always wants to give another chance-those chances put our lives at risk and caused financial ruin. No, he hasn't been allowed here again for years, it is sad, but that's the way it has to be.

I can't begin to understand why CA would try and say things like FCA wasn't pregnant when she was, or any of the other questionable things she did-All I can say it is a major dysfunction.

 

[atthelake]

First, I want to straight up apologize again if I have offened anybody or made anybody angry by something I may have said out of context-That wasn't the intent at all, it wasn't meant to be taken in any such a way-I think we are all seeing beyond red over this book and tensions are running high-so high it has spilled over into heated discussions in our own home, hasn't been pretty. I guess we should have never watched the show-lesson learned. Thanks to JB:banghead:

I don't think I have ever spoke of this and maybe it is immaterial, but I do have 1 highly manipulative grown child that I do not speak about. Although the circumstances are very different, we have lived the horror of being taken advantaged of -to the tune of over $180k over a period of time. Very normal childhood, went to church, had all the perks of joining up in baseball, football, skating, skiing, camping-you name it, we did it all, but somewhere along the line he changed and became a somewhat hothead at 17 and by the time he moved out at 18 and would come by to visit, he became slowly manipulative.
1st it was borrowing money here and there to get by, then he started losing good jobs because of his attitude-where he got this is clueless on me to this day. He'd use his other siblings, but then he started to use my husband, first for little things, then it got bigger and bigger until one day his foot went down(I had stopped giving in years prior) and it was then we both got the heck of life and were physically abused, not once, but 3 different times in 1 year to where he almost broke my leg the last go round just because I had asked him to download some Driver CD's onto a new computer-Yes, we walked on eggshells around him when he'd come for a visit-Where this behavior came from I have no idea except to guess maybe from his friends because this type of behavior was never around our inviroment while all the children were growing up. There was never any indication of a problem until he was of age and although it was mentioned time and time again that he should go for counseling, it fell on his deaf ears because he knows best, nothing wrong with him, I could not drag him off because he was of age-I probably can call him a narcississt as well because he has almost the same traits as FCA except he never did what she did, some things are very similar-the over the top stories that sound true, but of course are not. I caught on years ago, but my DH is the type that always wants to give another chance-those chances put our lives at risk and caused financial ruin. No, he hasn't been allowed here again for years, it is sad, but that's the way it has to be.

I can't begin to understand why CA would try and say things like FCA wasn't pregnant when she was, or any of the other questionable things she did-All I can say it is a major dysfunction.

:hug: So sorry that you have to live through this. Only those that are experiencing it can truly know the horrors of it - being open and honest about it I am sure is difficult for many - as most folks perhaps in the situation are ashamed (incorrectly) and don't talk about the elephant in the room to friends, thinking incorrectly that it will reflect badly on them.

:grouphug: BigMomma

 

[Hope4More]

Not that I am sympathetic to CA for her behavior but which came first - the chicken or the egg is a question I ask myself.

I think the article mentioned that the neurological bad-wiring of sociopaths is, 80% of the time, inherited. That fact reinforced for me the probability that CA is herself weirdly-wired, so to speak.

At the very very least, CA was clearly incapable of even acknowledging FCA's profound problems, much less providing her with professional help.

 

[bayouland]

First, I want to straight up apologize again if I have offened anybody or made anybody angry by something I may have said out of context-That wasn't the intent at all, it wasn't meant to be taken in any such a way-I think we are all seeing beyond red over this book and tensions are running high-so high it has spilled over into heated discussions in our own home, hasn't been pretty. I guess we should have never watched the show-lesson learned. Thanks to JB:banghead:

I don't think I have ever spoke of this and maybe it is immaterial, but I do have 1 highly manipulative grown child that I do not speak about. Although the circumstances are very different, we have lived the horror of being taken advantaged of -to the tune of over $180k over a period of time. Very normal childhood, went to church, had all the perks of joining up in baseball, football, skating, skiing, camping-you name it, we did it all, but somewhere along the line he changed and became a somewhat hothead at 17 and by the time he moved out at 18 and would come by to visit, he became slowly manipulative.
1st it was borrowing money here and there to get by, then he started losing good jobs because of his attitude-where he got this is clueless on me to this day. He'd use his other siblings, but then he started to use my husband, first for little things, then it got bigger and bigger until one day his foot went down(I had stopped giving in years prior) and it was then we both got the heck of life and were physically abused, not once, but 3 different times in 1 year to where he almost broke my leg the last go round just because I had asked him to download some Driver CD's onto a new computer-Yes, we walked on eggshells around him when he'd come for a visit-Where this behavior came from I have no idea except to guess maybe from his friends because this type of behavior was never around our inviroment while all the children were growing up. There was never any indication of a problem until he was of age and although it was mentioned time and time again that he should go for counseling, it fell on his deaf ears because he knows best, nothing wrong with him, I could not drag him off because he was of age-I probably can call him a narcississt as well because he has almost the same traits as FCA except he never did what she did, some things are very similar-the over the top stories that sound true, but of course are not. I caught on years ago, but my DH is the type that always wants to give another chance-those chances put our lives at risk and caused financial ruin. No, he hasn't been allowed here again for years, it is sad, but that's the way it has to be.

I can't begin to understand why CA would try and say things like FCA wasn't pregnant when she was, or any of the other questionable things she did-All I can say it is a major dysfunction.

What a horrible thing to have been through with your son. A pain that never ends, I am so sorry.

As for this place, JMO, but to each his own as far as opinions go.

Unlike the Pinnelas 12, we are all thinking individuals, fully capable of coming to our own conclusion.

 

[logicalgirl]

I think the article mentioned that the neurological bad-wiring of sociopaths is, 80% of the time, inherited. That fact reinforced for me the probability that CA is herself weirdly-wired, so to speak.

At the very very least, CA was clearly incapable of even acknowledging FCA's profound problems, much less providing her with professional help.

Yes, I agree and if you saw my following post either way it doesn't excuse her behaviour. PS I'm on the fence about the "inherited" part - excluding the situation with the Anthony's - I'm not comfortable putting the "blame" or whatever on well meaning caring parents who do seek help until I see some proof documented however.

Simply put for me at least, the reasons why does not exclude the responsibility for deeds because of. I fear my dislike of how the Anthony family behaved may squew (sp?) the way I veiw all dysfunctional families.

 

[zoey]

I am still dying to know WHY she would sign a waiver but NOT profit off of the book. She is so tit for tat. There has to be something he promised her in return!!!! Maybe he trashes her parents and brother or something? She would not sign that waiver without getting something out of this book! Or maybe he's so pathetic she doesn't think he has anything to say anyway. Maybe she's getting a giggle out of watching him go down in flames?

I'm thinking that the reason he is saying that is to promote the book for sales...I'm sure he is aware that there are many out there to boycott anything that would give fca profits...he just bypassed the area for not wanting to give him any money as well. My personal feeling about it was that he got lucky with the juriors....most wouldn't have bought those lines...

 

[BigMomma]

:hug: So sorry that you have to live through this. Only those that are experiencing it can truly know the horrors of it - being open and honest about it I am sure is difficult for many - as most folks perhaps in the situation are ashamed (incorrectly) and don't talk about the elephant in the room to friends, thinking incorrectly that it will reflect badly on them.

:grouphug: BigMomma

:seeya: Thanks. No, I don't think I was ever ashamed it would reflect on to me, I was more angry as to why this was happening because he was a great child, and he had a very promising future in his field, he worked very hard to acheive this in college and extra private classes, but I understand how other people might mask it for that very reason-they think it will reflect badly on them. I used to sit and think, really think if it was something I could have done wrong and no, I'm not perfect, but there is absolutely nothing that ever came to mind. I spoke with my own Dr. one or two times about the situation and his thoughts were, it was probably started from outside peer pressure, could have been caused by recreational drug use or and this was the most likely scenario-since this son was very into physical workouts, perhaps steroid use.

 

[bayouland]

Yes, I agree and if you saw my following post either way it doesn't excuse her behaviour. PS I'm on the fence about the "inherited" part - excluding the situation with the Anthony's - I'm not comfortable putting the "blame" or whatever on well meaning caring parents who do seek help until I see some proof documented however.

Simply put for me at least, the reasons why does not exclude the responsibility for deeds because of. I fear my dislike of how the Anthony family behaved may squew (sp?) the way I veiw all dysfunctional families.

:floorlaugh: Oh LG, I doubt that will happen. Your comment just made me LOL.

There is dysfunctional and then there is DYSFUNCTIONAL. We know that you can see the difference!!!!!

 

[BigMomma]

What a horrible thing to have been through with your son. A pain that never ends, I am so sorry.

As for this place, JMO, but to each his own as far as opinions go.

Unlike the Pinnelas 12, we are all thinking individuals, fully capable of coming to our own conclusion.

:seeya: Thanks. I know and we all do respect each opinions. I do have a bad time sometimes when I'm trying to say something when I'm angry (and believe me, the interview made me AAARRRGGGHHH and I can't see through the red madness) I do have a way of not saying things clearly, it comes out wrong.

Yes, we truly have come to the conclusions we have-There are things that will never be explained or clarified, but we know what the end result was, not to mention what was what from the get go.

You know, I just wonder if in some strange way JB knew this book or maybe the interviews were going to cause more mayhem? Maybe he's not only slithery, maybe and this is jmo, he is doing this to keep everybody on more of an edge? maybe enjoying this in a somewhat demented sort of way? Like a payback for the backlash? Grown man-should have known better.:banghead:

 

[Spice]

Yes, I agree and if you saw my following post either way it doesn't excuse her behaviour. PS I'm on the fence about the "inherited" part - excluding the situation with the Anthony's - I'm not comfortable putting the "blame" or whatever on well meaning caring parents who do seek help until I see some proof documented however.

Simply put for me at least, the reasons why does not exclude the responsibility for deeds because of. I fear my dislike of how the Anthony family behaved may squew (sp?) the way I veiw all dysfunctional families.

I totally agree with you Logical. Although, it says 80 % inherited, it also mentions that environment can exacerbate or diminish it and quote "Physiology is not destiny." Further...50% of them do not go on to become psychopaths in adulthood.

Casey may certainly have been "wired" wrong. But I agree with you totally that-that is not enough. Cindy was a Permissive parent to the highest degree. Casey NEVER experienced consequences for anything that she did.

She behaved like an entitled sociopathic brat. Stealing from her mother, her grandmother, pathological lying, CALCULATING and manipulative behaviors to all that she was involved with. She manipulated and deceived Every single person in her life.

Look at her parents,(lying about her job, robbing them blind, killing caylee and then lying that she was "kidnapped) Amy (Stealing, lying to her) Jesse (lying and making him believe Caylee was his baby). In turn, Cindy ignored it ALL and treated her like a princess. Even scolding George when he would protest and dig deeper, wanting to call his daughter out on her behavior.

It's not a surprise that Casey did what she did to him at trial. That was a reprisal for loving Caylee and for ever daring to question her in the first place.

That being said, Casey may be wired wrong but her environment shaped her. And I am not so sure that Cindy isn't "wired" wrong as well. Her behavior has ALWAYS been jaw-droppingly beyond the pale. It takes an incredible amount of disordered behavior to act the way she does. So....a very disordered woman (in my opinion) was raising Casey, a potentially "not wired right" child all along.

I believe in this case its alot more than Casey simply being wired wrong, this was a very toxic dynamic and environment from the beginning. Almost like an incubator to grow a sociopath.

Fascinating, disturbing, and so upsetting.

 

[wonders]

Even if I wanted to read Baez' trash there would be no need to. All I have to do is read here to learn all I need to know. The intellectual conversations that go on here are priceless in my opinion.
BigMomma I'm sorry for your experiances with your son it has to be heartbreaking for you. ((((HUGS)))).

 

[Hope4More]

Yes, I agree and if you saw my following post either way it doesn't excuse her behaviour. PS I'm on the fence about the "inherited" part - excluding the situation with the Anthony's - I'm not comfortable putting the "blame" or whatever on well meaning caring parents who do seek help until I see some proof documented however.

We're mostly on the same page, LG, though I'm perhaps less on the fence about the inheritance thing.

I've had a life-long fascination with all things neurological, and did a huge amount of reading on the subject years before my own brain was compromised by neurological Lyme disease.

FWIW, here's a tidbit from my own first-hand experience with a brain that isn't working right.

I'm normally an extremely empathetic, compassionate person. Some years ago when my Lyme was at its worst, I happened to be driving on an unfamiliar, very twisty-turny road. My husband was in the front seat, and our 4 year precious son was in the backseat, and we were late for a doctor's appointment.

I decided to turn around, abruptly, and without looking for oncoming traffic, simply went for it, without slowing down. A car came at us, going about 40-50 miles an hour, aimed directly at our passenger side. I don't know how that driver controlled the skid he went into when he slammed on his brakes to avoid hitting us.

I remember my husband telling me to pull over. I did. I looked at him. I'd never seen him cry before, but he had tears pouring down his utterly ashen face and he was shaking so hard the seat was moving. He asked our son if he was OK, and then in a very low voice told me he was so scared that he had almost peed in his pants.

And here's the thing. I saw and heard his distress, but felt absolutely NOTHING. I couldn't understand at all why he was so upset. We were late and going in the wrong direction, and the car had to be turned around-- so what of it?

In fact, and here's the part that is most alien to me-- I actually LAUGHED when he told me he came close to peeing in his pants. I thought that was genuinely funny.

The truth of the matter is that I have experienced for myself that a brain glitch far less severe than the one the article says may cause sociopathy can cause a person to act in ways that are otherwise (thankfully) unimaginable.

 

[zoey]

I don't recall JB ever saying GA molested OCA tonight. He mentioned the Dr. Depo's which he tried to allude backed up his OS claims. Basically, he said you would have read his book.

I now take back my thoughts that he will reveal things inhis book - and don't believe it going to say much at all.

I wonder if JVM is crying in her big hair that it was Dr. Drew that got the 1st book interview. Hmmm, I wonder why his BFF Geraldo didn't have him on 1st for his big reveal?

again I keep remembering that line that when we heard his OS we would all go ahha---I went BSlease: