jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[matou]

Welcome SHASTA!!!!

:welcome::welcome4:

 

[matou]

Mothers who have lost their child to abduction, rape and murder may feel differently. JMO

 

[flipflop]

Snipped from AG's post:
But Canada is supposed to be a civilized country. We are not in Turkey or Afghanistan. We are supposed to treat everyone humanely even criminals.

People have a hard time when criminals do not follow this, but yet we as a society have to treat the criminals humanely...such as this case, VS was not treated humanely, but now we are to treat TLM and MR humanely.

I have posted this link in an earlier thread, it is about a visit in prison with PB...it is worth readying.

http://www.ottawamenscentre.com/news/20050621_bernardo.htm

 

[otto]

Had I carried a child for nine months, nursed him, changed his diapers, nurtured and loved him, no matter what crime he was convicted of, I would not want him to spend the next 25 - 50 years under these conditions:

Even this would be heartbreaking had I mothered this monster:

Some people might prefer that we return to prison cells such as this:

http://www.lorrifreedman.com/Photog...84252_G83H5F#!i=1435613174&k=xP5QfkX&lb=1&s=L​

... or this:

But Canada is supposed to be a civilized country. We are not in Turkey or Afghanistan. We are supposed to treat everyone humanely, even criminals.

The first two pictures are from Canada. They do not look like any lap of luxury to me. I don't believe that anyone would want to spend even a month like this, much less a lifetime.

From the website of the first image:





http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/p...punish-inmates/article2237630/?service=mobile

Yes, of course I want criminals punished - appropriately and for a duration commensurate with the severity of their crimes. No, I don't want them living in a Club Med environment. But I do believe in a humane treatment of all human beings and not reverting to Draconian conditions. Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal. Or maybe I'm just a mother who tries to put herself in everybody's shoes.

Think about it: if it were your child sent to prison for the rest of his life, how would you want him treated?

JMO

:twocents:
:cowcouch:

R.I.P., Tori. Sadly, nothing can bring you back now.

Low risk prisoners are usually transferred to prisons that are not that harsh. Case in point is that Karla Homolka lived here: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/facilit/institutprofiles/joliette-eng.shtml

Here's another pleasant prison, this one for men: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/facilit/institutprofiles/williamhead-eng.shtml

 

[otto]

From what little I know about the case, it seems that Terry McClintic is taking responsibility for murdering Tori, as she has admitted that she purchased the hammer and that she hit Tori with it three times. <modsnip>. Do we know if he can be convicted of murder because he was at present at the time of the murder?

 

[antiquegirl]

Snipped from AG's post:
But Canada is supposed to be a civilized country. We are not in Turkey or Afghanistan. We are supposed to treat everyone humanely even criminals.

People have a hard time when criminals do not follow this, but yet we as a society have to treat the criminals humanely...such as this case, VS was not treated humanely, but now we are to treat TLM and MR humanely.

I have posted this link in an earlier thread, it is about a visit in prison with PB...it is worth readying.

http://www.ottawamenscentre.com/news/20050621_bernardo.htm

(BBM)

Which is what is supposed to separate US from THEM. Should we all sink to the level of people with no conscience, no humanity, or are we better than they are?

Modern prison conditions are a controversial subject and opinions vary greatly depending on whether you look at those institutions as places of vengeance, punishment, rehabilitation, protection of society, or a combination of some of that.

An "eye for an eye" is a Biblical concept that, IMO, has no place in 21st century civilized society.

But that's JMO.

 

[matou]

Interesting. The justice system works just fine but the sentencing aspect and jail system is 'inhumane'. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

Low risk prisoners are usually transferred to prisons that are not that harsh. Case in point is that Karla Homolka lived here: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/facilit/institutprofiles/joliette-eng.shtml

Here's another pleasant prison, this one for men: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/facilit/institutprofiles/williamhead-eng.shtml

I doubt that TLM is considered "low risk" or ever will be. Certainly not after she admitted bludgeoning an innocent child to death. She is currently serving a life sentence in the Grand Valley Institution for Women. If MTR is convicted, he would most certainly not be considered "low risk", either.

KH made a notorious deal with the devil. I'd hope that the powers that be have learned a valuable lesson from her case.

JMO

 

[swedie]

Mothers who have lost their child to abduction, rape and murder may feel differently. JMO

I agree Matou. Also it's not like murderers don't know where they will be heading if caught. I have no sympathy for evil people who deliberately stalk innocent people, especially women and children. Imagine if murderers were not caught and put behind bars. :what: There would be so many more victims, which could include our children, grandchildren, family or friends. All the families who have been affected by senseless murders are sentenced to a lifetime of suffering, worse then any conditions a prisoner is subjected too. I don't believe in segregation either but that's just :moo:

 

[Wondergirl]

Snipped from AG's post:
But Canada is supposed to be a civilized country. We are not in Turkey or Afghanistan. We are supposed to treat everyone humanely even criminals.

People have a hard time when criminals do not follow this, but yet we as a society have to treat the criminals humanely...such as this case, VS was not treated humanely, but now we are to treat TLM and MR humanely.

I have posted this link in an earlier thread, it is about a visit in prison with PB...it is worth readying.

http://www.ottawamenscentre.com/news/20050621_bernardo.htm

Thanks for the article, Flipflop.

I wonder if any of the journalists covering either Russell Williams, TLM's or MTR's trial have had these thoughts? It must extremely difficult to cover these horrific cases.

As his four-month trial dragged on in 1995 I began fantasizing about hurting the man who had hurt so many people. In my daydream, I would vault over the benches, grab him by the neck, throw him to the floor and give him a punch in the mouth for each of his victims. For good measure, I would throw in a couple of extra blows for myself.


Was I losing it, I wondered. The Star had brought in a counsellor to talk to those who were covering the trial and editing the copy. "I'm fine," I told her. I wasn't. One evening after court, when a group of reporters covering the trial gathered at a bar to drown our anguish in booze, I blurted out my fantasy.


To my surprise, several others had been thinking the exact same thing. Like me, they wanted their frontier-style justice. Such was the hatred for this evil creature staring down at me from his cage.


I thought about that as I looked back at him. I suddenly had the urge to yell at him, like two of his friends had done shortly after his arrest, standing outside the Metro East Detention centre and cursing at his cell.


But the words got stuck in my throat. His gaze was vacant, the cockiness long gone. My anger eased. He disappeared back into his cell. The moment passed. We continued the tour.


"People wanted him to rot in jail," I said, and my guide finished my thought: "I think they got their wish," he said.

http://www.ottawamenscentre.com/news/20050621_bernardo.htm

 

[antiquegirl]

Interesting. The justice system works just fine but the sentencing aspect and jail system is 'inhumane'. JMO

I'm sorry, but I'm unsure as to what you're referring. If it's to my post, I never said anything of the sort. My one point was that some people want the prison system to be more inhumane than it is. I never said that the current one is necessarily inhumane -- only that I wouldn't personally want them to be more so, and that I would not want my child spending 50 years in one. I was trying to see this situation from the viewpoint of a prisoner's loved one, specifically a mother.

Did I mention anything at all about the sentencing aspect or the justice system? Can't find it. My apologies if you are referencing something other than my earlier post.

:seeya:

 

[otto]

I doubt that TLM is considered "low risk" or ever will be. Certainly not after she admitted bludgeoning an innocent child to death. She is currently serving a life sentence in the Grand Valley Institution for Women. If MTR is convicted, he would most certainly not be considered "low risk", either.

KH made a notorious deal with the devil. I'd hope that the powers that be have learned a valuable lesson from her case.

JMO

If someone like Karla Homolka can be considered low risk, anyone can. McClintic had a grade 8 education when she went into prison and she is completing high school now. She is making decisions that will improve her life. McClintic had a horrible childhood which I'm pretty sure predisposed her for the type of crimes she committed with Rafferty. I suspect that after the trial, and after some more good decisions, she will be considered low risk.

Rafferty is different, as he is a sexual predator. I don't think that sexual predators are given the option of a minimum security prison, but that's just a guess.

 

[Wondergirl]

The injuries that Tori sustained prior to the hammer blows, would have been fatal.

Tori &#8212; bright eyed beauty, chatterbox, beloved daughter and sister &#8212; had suffered, and emphasize that, suffered, blunt impact trauma to the torso sufficient to have caused laceration of her liver and several fractured ribs. She&#8217;d been, as a forensic pathologist would later conclude, killed by repeated hammer blows to the head. The pounding to torso, to chest, had likely come first.

&#8220;These injuries were almost certainly caused before the fatal hammer blows were delivered,&#8221; Crown Attorney Kevin Gowdey told a hushed courtroom here. &#8220;On their own, these injuries were fatal.&#8221;

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...fic-details-of-slaying-revealed-as-case-opens

 

[otto]

The injuries that Tori sustained prior to the hammer blows, would have been fatal.

Thanks for the info. That suggests that Rafferty caused injuries prior to the hammer blows. That tells me that he can be convicted of murder. I wasn't aware of the other injuries.

 

[Wondergirl]

It seems like the technical evidence will be vast.

Crossing the street, Tori got into a Honda Civic in the parking lot of a retirement home. Rafferty, Gowdey said, had been sitting there, waiting. The car drove off and some of its passengers&#8217; movements, court was told, could later be tracked via the technology of closed circuit cameras and cellphone calls bouncing off transmitters. &#8220;Technology,&#8221; said Gowdey, &#8220;can follow us through ordinary days ... and extraordinary days.&#8221; Rafferty and McClintic, he added, seemed unaware of this modern phenomenon.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...fic-details-of-slaying-revealed-as-case-opens

 

[flipflop]

(BBM)

Which is what is supposed to separate US from THEM. Should we all sink to the level of people with no conscience, no humanity, or are we better than they are?

Modern prison conditions are a controversial subject and opinions vary greatly depending on whether you look at those institutions as places of vengeance, punishment, rehabilitation, protection of society, or a combination of some of that.

An "eye for an eye" is a Biblical concept that, IMO, has no place in 21st century civilized society.

But that's JMO.

An eye for an eye sounds good to me at this point in time. 2 evil people took part in raping and murdering an innocent sweet 8 year old child.

I have a hard time with the term "rehabilitation" with these 2 monsters. I do not want them rehabilitated and possibly thrown back out to society in the years to come, to be my neighbour. I feel they do not deserve to freely walk the streets ever again. Who wants them? Who wants them near their child, grandchild? These are just my feelings and my opinion only!

 

[swedie]

From what little I know about the case, it seems that Terry McClintic is taking responsibility for murdering Tori, as she has admitted that she purchased the hammer and that she hit Tori with it three times. Rafferty is clearly guilty of abduction and sexual assault. Do we know if he can be convicted of murder because he was at present at the time of the murder?

Hi Otto! Yes MR can be found guilty of first degree murder because Tori died during her abduction and sexual assault. Whether he actually took her life or not, he could be found guilty.

 

[Wondergirl]

One more quote, as it succinctly summarizes the placement of MTR in the car during the kidnapping, while in Guelph:

At 3.20 p.m., the Civic was caught on a camera at a nearby Esso station. By 4.30 it was in Guelph where Rafferty went into a woman’s house, allegedly to buy Percocet pills — while McClintic remained in the vehicle. Tori was “hidden from sight.”

Half an hour later, the car pulled at the Home Depot on the north side of Guelph. Rafferty went into the gas station and withdrew cash from an ATM — that’s on video. After then driving the car closer to the store, Rafferty stayed in the Civic, said Gowdey, while McClintic went inside. She bought garbage bags and picked out a claw hammer, paying for her purchases with $40 at a self-serve checkout.

The surveillance camera trail ends there, with McClintic placing her purchases in the Civic’s trunk. The car would then wind its way, said Gowdey, into the northern part of Wellington County, well north of Guelph, down a gravel road off 6th Concession North roadway near Mount Forest, a two-hour drive from Tori’s home in Woodstock.

OPP discovered that Rafferty had used his BlackBerry to check voice mail at 7.47 p.m., April 8, with that call pinging off a cellphone tower near Mount Forest.
http://www.thestar.com/news/article...fic-details-of-slaying-revealed-as-case-opens

 

[JayFriend]

An "eye for an eye" is a Biblical concept that, IMO, has no place in 21st century civilized society.

But that's JMO.

No, we're much more civilized now and opt for another Biblical concept instead, "turn the other cheek".

So how are we to make people accountable for their crimes? Or shouldn't we?

 

[antiquegirl]

If someone like Karla Homolka can be considered low risk, anyone can. McClintic had a grade 8 education when she went into prison and she is completing high school now. She is making decisions that will improve her life. McClintic had a horrible childhood which I'm pretty sure predisposed her for the type of crimes she committed with Rafferty. I suspect that after the trial, and after some more good decisions, she will be considered low risk.

Rafferty is different, as he is a sexual predator. I don't think that sexual predators are given the option of a minimum security prison, but that's just a guess.

As I wrote, KH's was a unique situation that resulted in a huge backlash. I do not think that anyone will make a stupid decision like that again. However, unlike KH, TLM has a history of 6 prior criminal convictions, 5 of them for assault, and committed in a relatively short period of time, almost right up until her last, most heinous crime. I'd like to hope that she will not get any special treatment or cushy facility.

Arguably, no matter where she is, TLM will be better taken care of than she ever was when she was free. But unless she can accept the life of no normal freedoms for 25+ years, it will still be a painful punishment. As deserved! No more drugs, no more booze, no more movie theatre sex or pretty hotel rooms, no doggies, no shopping, not much. Instead - iffy neighbours, strict rules, enforced bed and rise times, crappy food, etc., etc. I repeat: as deserved!

JMO