jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[margaret_diane]

In jail, they can get counseling and detox meds. But they cannot continue to be high.

 

[nursebeeme]

Nursebeeme, in regards to the title of this thread, the jury is out until Wednesday 22 March. Can you have it change, thanks!

nonfiction: what date do we need? will they be back on tuesday?? let me know and I will change it

 

[iPhoenix]

In jail, they can get counseling and detox meds. But they cannot continue to be high.

That's what I was going to say - that they probably give methadone to the inmates to help them clean up. Or maybe they let withdrawal get them. MOO loud and clear.

 

[maxfactor]

Here is something that just occurred to me, are both MR and TLM free of all drug addictions now? Does the jury know?

Clearly, they were both high at the time of the crime, but what happened when they were in custody? We know that oxy is as addictive and hard to quit as heroin (or tobacco, for that matter), so what happens when an addict is in jail? do they go cold turkey, or does the taxpayer put them on methadone maintenance? From what I've read, methadone is just as addictive as the drugs it replaces with no end in sight. It's been a long time since they both went into custody. Would they be "cured" now, or just on another drug? I certainly doubt that TLM was off any drugs or substitute drugs when she was interviewed by LE the first few times. I think the jury should know how she was during all those interrogations and right now, for that matter.

There is actually a serious drug problem inside the jails and prisons. As long as they had someone on the outside to pay for them they could very easily get drugs.

 

[nursebeeme]

modnotes:

1) I fixed the date: Lawd have mercy I think my counter is broke! :lol:

2) the reason we ask that you use :moo: or :twocents: or even the words, "I think" etc is because that identifies it as your opinion which everyone is entitled to.

3) random note: please address the post not the poster in non-argumentative language. We are going to be here a long time at this rate and we can all agree to disagree and get along.

 

[antiquegirl]

Gerry Dewan ‏@GerryDewanCTV

McClintic says she took Tori by the hand and led her too a place near the car where she could go to the washroom

.James Armstrong‏@jamesarmstrong7

Mcclintic "I told her (s)he was a very strong girl. She said 'Like you?' i said 'no much stronger"

.James Armstrong‏@jamesarmstrong7

McClintic "I told her I was sorry. She said 'don't let him to it again “

I'm not a doctor, but IF this is a factual recounting of events after the first alleged sexual assault, it doesn't sound to me like a state of shock (a.k.a. acute stress reaction). While Tori would naturally be traumatized, her alleged conversation sounds lucid and logical. I imagine a child in shock would be almost catatonic, unable to converse, and likely wet herself during the horrific assault instead of asking to be taken away to urinate.

We need to wait for the testimony of the medical experts, but it makes me feel better to hope that a lot of this story could be either a deliberate lie by a proven liar, or a figment of her imagination related to those flashbacks to her own assault(s).

JMO

 

[nonfictionrocks]

modnotes:

1) I fixed the date: Lawd have mercy I think my counter is broke! :lol:

2) the reason we ask that you use :moo: or :twocents: or even the words, "I think" etc is because that identifies it as your opinion which everyone is entitled to.

3) random note: please address the post not the poster in non-argumentative language. We are going to be here a long time at this rate and we can all agree to disagree and get along.

Your counter is getting closer but it is actually Wednesday March 22.

 

[nursebeeme]

:thud:

thank you nonfiction!

 

[nonfictionrocks]

:thud:

thank you nonfiction!

LOL Nurse!

 

[matou]

Apparently this is what DIDN'T happen:

When she did glance back, McClintic said Tori was now in a fetal position on the snow-covered ground. "I knew she wasn't okay," she sobs. "I seen Mike kick her a couple times with a garbage bag over her head...He used the hammer."

"Where did he hit her with the hammer?" Smyth asks her.

"The head," McClintic replies, crying. "She had the garbage bag over her so afterwards, he knew what he was doing. There was no blood splatter."

And then, she says, when the child's moaning ended, she helped her boyfriend shove her still body into more garbage bags and then tossed her on to a rock pile.

"After her death, I was pretty stunned and I was just standing there," McClintic recalls on the video. "He told me I needed to help, that I was in it just as far as he was now."

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/16/mcclintic-insists-she-killed-tori

 

[nonfictionrocks]

Here is something that just occurred to me, are both MR and TLM free of all drug addictions now? Does the jury know?

Clearly, they were both high at the time of the crime, but what happened when they were in custody? We know that oxy is as addictive and hard to quit as heroin (or tobacco, for that matter), so what happens when an addict is in jail? do they go cold turkey, or does the taxpayer put them on methadone maintenance? From what I've read, methadone is just as addictive as the drugs it replaces with no end in sight. It's been a long time since they both went into custody. Would they be "cured" now, or just on another drug? I certainly doubt that TLM was off any drugs or substitute drugs when she was interviewed by LE the first few times. I think the jury should know how she was during all those interrogations and right now, for that matter.

TLM was in custody 4 days after Tori was abducted. IMO She was interviewed by Det Smyth the first time on May 19th, when she confessed that she was the person on the tape and probably told them at that point (again JMO) Rafferty was with her. She probably wasn't on OxyContin for the interview with Det Smyth but she could have been on another drug to ease her withdrawal. Keep in mind, she was injecting OxyContin and who knows what else, she was a "junkie", she said so herself, and she would have needed medical supervision withdrawing from that particular drug for sure.

 

[matou]

And the jury was instructed that this didn't happen either:

“I saw her with him. She just called out to me. I wanted to try to walk towards her. I could only take a couple steps in her direction,” McClintic, shown at right, told OPP Det. Sgt Jim Smyth May 24, 2009.

“Then I walked off . . . I could hear Tori, saying ‘T,T, don’t let him . . . make him stop, make him stop.’ ”

She told police then she could hear Tori moaning. She heard the rustle of garbage bags.

She turned and saw Tori on the ground, her head covered with a garbage bag.

“He knew what he was doing . . . ” she said, in a shocked voice.

She saw her boyfriend, Michael Rafferty, kick Tori.

Tori was kicked “more than once.”

She saw Tori on the ground in a fetal position, still moving.

Then she saw Rafferty swing a hammer.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/03/16/19514241.html

 

[Salem]

I would imagine that Raffertys lawyer had serious issues with that tape being played, hence the delays today and the judges instructions to the jury regarding it. What I don't get is why she bothered to change her story, unless they have something solid proving she was the one to kick/stomp/kill...

I wish with all my being that he would just change his plea to guilty (can he do that at this point?) and save the family from any more excessive grief. Regardless of who yielded the hammer, he is pure evil and needs to be put away forever!!

In the US (I don't know about Canada) a defendant can change his plea at anytime up until the Jury comes back with a verdict. He/she must do it before the verdict is read.

Hope that helps,

Salem

 

[margaret_diane]

I'm wondering what medications TLM is currently on? I have heard from people actually INSIDE the satelite court room that she is incredibly slow in giving her responses to questions, and that she speaks almost inaudibly. At times she is slower and quieter than others, and I wonder why? Perhaps she is being drugged in the jail? Anti psychotics? Anti-anxiety? A little sleeping medication to help her get to sleep then something to wake her back up perhaps?

If she is presently taking any prescribed medications can her testimony later be called into question? Can the defence then argue that she was under the influence of mind altering drugs, and therefore could not give concise, clear, accurate testimony?

Just my opinion and something I'm wondering about.

 

[antiquegirl]

And the jury was instructed that this didn't happen either:

“I saw her with him. She just called out to me. I wanted to try to walk towards her. I could only take a couple steps in her direction,” McClintic, shown at right, told OPP Det. Sgt Jim Smyth May 24, 2009.

“Then I walked off . . . I could hear Tori, saying ‘T,T, don’t let him . . . make him stop, make him stop.’ ”

She told police then she could hear Tori moaning. She heard the rustle of garbage bags.

She turned and saw Tori on the ground, her head covered with a garbage bag.

“He knew what he was doing . . . ” she said, in a shocked voice.

She saw her boyfriend, Michael Rafferty, kick Tori.

Tori was kicked “more than once.”

She saw Tori on the ground in a fetal position, still moving.

Then she saw Rafferty swing a hammer.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/03/16/19514241.html

Well, technically, what the judge said was that it should not be taken as evidence. The events as stated by TLM didn't happen, but the video proves that that is what she said happened. A little nitpicking here.

Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

The judge brought the jury back to tell them that the video is not evidence, that they have to rely on what she said in the witness box

Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

The only thing they can use the video for is to assess McClintic's credibility, he says, not to determine Rafferty's guilt.

CBC News Alerts‏@CBCAlerts

Judge tells jury McClintic 2009 police video not evidence . #McClintic said #Rafferty killed #Stafford in police video

 

[swedie]

I wonder if the Crown will get to this evidence on Wednesday. IMO this evidence will be crucial in bringing it all home for the jurors. It will prove TLM and MR's togetherness, during that critical time Tori was missing April 8, 2009. This was a gas station so I am pretty certain there will be that surveillance along with surveillance from inside the kiosk of MR at the ATM machine. The Crown will also have his transaction records for further evidence as to their claim. My underlined part; is this where reports claimed he worked at a meat packaging plant? Did he have any other jobs in Guelph? It seems once he moved back to Woodstock, reports say he lived with and off of his mother's income, or is there any knowledge of him holding down other jobs (and not just his fantasy jobs) in Woodstock? Also we now know MR had a drug connection in Guelph, BA who will be called upon by the Crown as a witness. Were drugs possibly his source of income? What year did MR move to and leave Guelph? What I am trying to establish is how far back he lived in Guelph and how long he may have been involved in drugs. Sleuthing and MHO.


The two adults drove Tori to Guelph, Ont., where Rafferty visited a friend and bought "a large number" of painkillers.

The pair then went to a Petro Canada gas station in the north end of Guelph, where a video camera caught Rafferty heading to the ATM machine. He took out cash, got back in the car and drove closer to a nearby Home Depot.

McClintic went in and paid cash at the self-serve for garbage bags and a hammer.

"She picked out a hammer from a display in the store, a claw hammer," Gowdey said.

McClintic then put the hammer and bags in the trunk, and the pair drove away. Rafferty knows the area well from working there and because he has family in the region, Gowdey said. They drove to a remote spot near Mount Forest, Ont., where Tori was raped and killed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway

 

[nursebeeme]

swedie, iirc they got to the home depot and that video and have touched on the atm (I haven't seen bank records yet but not sure)

 

[Wondergirl]

I killed her. He killed her.

I’m guilty, she pleads.

I’m not guilty, he has pleaded.

When the jury left here Friday for an extended weekend off, they could be forgiven for being utterly discombobulated.

Seven times they’d been up and down, in and out, on Day 8 in the trial of Michael Rafferty, charged with kidnapping, sexual assault and first-degree murder in the death of 8-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford. Complex legal arguments were heard in their absence. Narrow instructions were delivered by Superior Court Justice Thomas Heeney in their presence.

By the end of the afternoon, in this uncomfortably warm courtroom, everybody was visibly flagging.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...-to-judge-terri-lynne-mcclintic-s-credibility

 

[swedie]

swedie, iirc they got to the home depot and that video and have touched on the atm (I haven't seen bank records yet but not sure)

Nurse I know they have shown the video from outside of HD but the Crown also claims there is further ones from the PetroCan showing MR getting out and back into his car, after he had used the ATM machine. These videos I am hoping will be much clearer and closer up to positively ID MR and hopefully TLM sitting in the passenger seat of MR's car. :moo:

 

[nonfictionrocks]

I wonder how much longer before her cross examination begins? Though IMO, she seems to be doing a pretty good job at keeping everyone confused in who did what when.

I hope this BA woman is not anything like TLM or her mother for that matter - WOW!!