jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[maxfactor]

We will see how many times-simple future tense. I know he has not testified. JMO

It will be very interesting to hear his statements to police. I'm betting he didn't tell the truth at all.

 

[dar107]

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Pics 37-38, TM is very detailed with her drawings of the crime scene, uses a legend, even noting trees with or without leaves. Such a vivid memory regarding the area, the house etc. Makes me wonder if she knew all along how to direct LE right to Tori's remains. I am sure this has been discussed before but makes me think she just enjoyed all the attention of the helicopter rides and the media attention that got her. I think she could have retraced her steps back to that laneway without too much difficulty. This is a girl who was likely craving attention her whole life, starved for it. I really believe all the things she went through growing up, the horrible life that was handed to her, the fact she couldn't make anything out of her life and the effects of all the drugs, twisted her mind and led to her feeling emotionless and unable to feel any empathy towards others. I do not believe she has any remorse for what she did and is maybe even enjoying the attention she is now getting.

 

[mareseatoats]

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Pics 37-38, TM is very detailed with her drawings of the crime scene, uses a legend, even noting trees with or without leaves. Such a vivid memory regarding the area, the house etc. Makes me wonder if she knew all along how to direct LE right to Tori's remains. I am sure this has been discussed before but makes me think she just enjoyed all the attention of the helicopter rides and the media attention that got her. I think she could have retraced her steps back to that laneway without too much difficulty. This is a girl who was likely craving attention her whole life, starved for it. I really believe all the things she went through growing up, the horrible life that was handed to her, the fact she couldn't make anything out of her life and the effects of all the drugs, twisted her mind and led to her feeling emotionless and unable to feel any empathy towards others. I do not believe she has any remorse for what she did and is maybe even enjoying the attention she is now getting.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I have a Honda Accord, the trunk release is on the floor by the driver's door.

I believe all cars, exept perhaps for really old ones have a button on the inside to pop the trunk. In my Suzuki, the lever is on the left side of the steering wheel, just below dashboard, and so is the button for the gas door to unlock.

 

[JayFriend]

http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Pics 37-38, TM is very detailed with her drawings of the crime scene, uses a legend, even noting trees with or without leaves. Such a vivid memory regarding the area, the house etc. Makes me wonder if she knew all along how to direct LE right to Tori's remains. I am sure this has been discussed before but makes me think she just enjoyed all the attention of the helicopter rides and the media attention that got her. I think she could have retraced her steps back to that laneway without too much difficulty.

For those who have never flown in a light aircraft, identifying where you are is extremely difficult from the air unless you're very experienced. When I was learning to fly, I'd routinely get lost within sight if the airport and wouldn't know how to find my way back without directions from the instructor. I totally believe TLM may not have been able to identify the site even if she flew right over it. Add to that the fact that a passenger in a car can't necessarily find their own way to a location even though they've been driven there numerous times.

 

[Kittymama]

I'm sorry to interrupt the discussion, as I haven't finished the thread, but I have a question if anyone can help. Are there any photos of any tattoos Rafferty has on his left arm? I saw one on his right, but I need the left.

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to put this. I didn't know where else to put it. I found a picture of a guy I met a long time ago (in Alberta, but I don't remember where he was from), and it looks like his doppelganger. TIA!

 

[antiquegirl]

I'm sorry to interrupt the discussion, as I haven't finished the thread, but I have a question if anyone can help. Are there any photos of any tattoos Rafferty has on his left arm? I saw one on his right, but I need the left.

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to put this. I didn't know where else to put it. I found a picture of a guy I met a long time ago (in Alberta, but I don't remember where he was from), and it looks like his doppelganger. TIA!

How long ago, Kitty? You don't remember his name? How far up or down on his arm do you need?

 

[Kittymama]

How long ago, Kitty? You don't remember his name? How far up or down on his arm do you need?

Hmmm, I was in my very early 20s, I think, and I'm 33 now (Rafferty's 2 years younger than me). Late 90s? No, I don't remember his name. I think it might have been Michael.

Anywhere on his left arm. In the picture I have, he has tattoos on his upper and lower arm. I don't think it's him because of the one tattoo on the lower arm, but I'd like to be sure. The resemblance is just...astounding.

Also, I didn't know him well, but I remember he was a cheater, he had a kid (don't remember if said kid was male or female), and he didn't like being called a "goof," although he was kind of a goof.

 

[antiquegirl]

Hmmm, I was in my very early 20s, I think, and I'm 33 now (Rafferty's 2 years younger than me). Late 90s? No, I don't remember his name. I think it might have been Michael.

Anywhere on his left arm. In the picture I have, he has tattoos on his upper and lower arm. I don't think it's him because of the one tattoo on the lower arm, but I'd like to be sure. The resemblance is just...astounding.

Also, I didn't know him well, but I remember he was a cheater, he had a kid (don't remember if said kid was male or female), and he didn't like being called a "goof," although he was kind of a goof.

This is the best I can find. You can see he doesn't seem to have any tats below the sleeve, but there don't seem to be any pics of him showing the whole arm. And of course we don't know when this was taken. He could have gotten one after the shot.

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/...n=view&current=n620795286_6136554_3472334.jpg

 

[Kittymama]

This is the best I can find. You can see he doesn't seem to have any tats below the sleeve, but there don't seem to be any pics of him showing the whole arm. And of course we don't know when this was taken. He could have gotten one after the shot.

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/...n=view&current=n620795286_6136554_3472334.jpg

Thanks! I wonder when that was taken? Yeah, the guy with the picture had a tattoo like a sun or something on his left forearm.

I'm still stunned at the resemblance, though. Right down to the way his eyes droop down a bit at the outer corners.

 

[mareseatoats]

Being a liar doesn't make one a murderer though. :waitasec:

MOO

Saying one's a murderer does though

 

[maxfactor]

Saying one's a murderer does though

Not necessarily :moo:

 

[scapa]

respectfully - I believe you mean you will see how many time MR WILL lie - which implies you belive TLM to be truthful. Personally, I do NOT.

Logically possible for both to be lying, and indeed likely with respect to some of the details. I think that who did what matters far less than that both contributed to the rape and murder of TS. I'm perfectly content to know nothing more than I know now about the precise roles and actions of MR and TLM in the hours leading up to Tori's death and concealment, just so long as both stay in prison, hopefully as dangerous offenders, for the rest of their sorry days.

s

 

[antiquegirl]

Logically possible for both to be lying, and indeed likely with respect to some of the details. I think that who did what matters far less than that both contributed to the rape and murder of TS. I'm perfectly content to know nothing more than I know now about the precise roles and actions of MR and TLM in the hours leading up to Tori's death and concealment, just so long as both stay in prison, hopefully as dangerous offenders, for the rest of their sorry days.

s

(BBM)

TLM has been in prison for 2 1/2 years and was not declared a dangerous offender. I'm not sure if this can change now, but I doubt it. Since she has admitted to being the actual murderer, I think the chances are slim that MTR would be, either - even if he is convicted. But I suppose anything is possible.

JMO

 

[paris_paris]

2 things.

I'd like to see kittymama's picture. :/

and... Rafferty said "I didn't do this."

Lie? Probably.

 

[Salem]

We don't post pictures of folks that are not involved in the case.

Salem

 

[dar107]

For those who have never flown in a light aircraft, identifying where you are is extremely difficult from the air unless you're very experienced. When I was learning to fly, I'd routinely get lost within sight if the airport and wouldn't know how to find my way back without directions from the instructor. I totally believe TLM may not have been able to identify the site even if she flew right over it. Add to that the fact that a passenger in a car can't necessarily find their own way to a location even though they've been driven there numerous times.

I agree that by air, the site would be difficult for TM to spot. I think she would have had a lot more chance finding it by retracing their steps in a vehicle. From her detailed descriptions it just gives me the gut instinct that she had been in this area before.

 

[scapa]

(BBM)

TLM has been in prison for 2 1/2 years and was not declared a dangerous offender. I'm not sure if this can change now, but I doubt it. Since she has admitted to being the actual murderer, I think the chances are slim that MTR would be, either - even if he is convicted. But I suppose anything is possible.

JMO

Unsure myself, but this may shed some light (link follows):

any behaviour by the offender, associated with the offence for which he or she has been convicted, that is of such a brutal nature as to compel the conclusion that the offender's behaviour in the future is unlikely to be inhibited by normal standards of behavioural restraint; or

that the offence for which the offender has been convicted is a serious personal injury offence described in paragraph (b) of the definition of that expression in section 752 and the offender, by his or her conduct in any sexual matter including that involved in the commission of the offence for which he or she has been convicted, has shown a failure to control his or her sexual impulses and a likelihood of causing injury, pain or other evil to other persons through failure in the future to control his or her sexual impulses.
(4) If the court finds an offender to be a dangerous offender, it shall impose a sentence of detention in a penitentiary for an indeterminate period.


http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/cor/tls/dod-eng.aspx

s

 

[Alethea Dice]

Does anyone know when TM changed her story from MR yielding the hammer, to her being the one who stuck the fatal blows? I am really confused on this, I thought it was within a short period of time after her initial statement that it was RM, and thought that was in her testimony but now looking back I cannot find anything that states that. Was it before her sentencing, sometime after, was it only when she took the stand last week that her story changed? Did the crown know she was going to say that it was her? Originally I thought that it was just before they upgraded her charge to first degree...........but now I am lost.

I don't think anyone really knows for sure when TLM changed her story. My thoughts are that it was just recently, or at least sometime in between when she pleaded guilty and now. It appeared that members of the press, as well as RS, were also surprised by her testimony, and many of them had also attended court on the day of her guilty plea and heard her story then.

TLM's first interview with Det. Smyth was on May 19, 2009, when she took the polygraph test.

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrowReplyOn May 19, McClintic says, OPP detective Jim Smyth administered a polygraph test

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrowReplyAt first, Terri-Lynne McClintic says, she lied to Jim Smyth. Then, later that day, she confessed and was charged.

Cynthia Mulligan@CityCynthiaReply#rafferty - That interview ended May 19th with her being charged with kidnapping and then eventually accessory to murder and then !st degree

Judging by the charges at that time as linked to in [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7692581&postcount=44"]n/t's post[/ame], she either didn't say who did what and an assumption was made, or she named MR as the murderer, since he was charged with murder and she was only charged as an accessory. My thoughts are that she didn't say, since this interview wasn't discussed in court.

May 24th was her second interview with Det. Smyth, clips of which were shown in court. It was during this interview that she named MR as the murderer.

You might remember that, on the very first day of court, before the Crown delivered their opening statement, everyone was removed from the courtroom while discussions were held. Even the press and spectators had to leave and security blocked the doors. I wonder if the Crown had just discovered that she was changing her story and this is what the delay was in regards to.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

she either didn't say who did what and an assumption was made, or she named MR as the murderer, since he was charged with murder and she was only charged as an accessory.

(Respectfully snipped and BBM) Thanks for this informative post, Alethea.

This original charge as accessory has always confounded me. We know that, according to the law, since she obviously abducted Tori and LE knew she had been murdered, TLM should have been charged with 1st degree murder - just because she was a participant - whether she killed her or not. So, why the accessory charge? Was it a trick by LE to get her to help them find the remains, fully intending to up the charges later? Was it a mistake? :waitasec:

You might remember that, on the very first day of court, before the Crown delivered their opening statement, everyone was removed from the courtroom while discussions were held. Even the press and spectators had to leave and security blocked the doors. I wonder if the Crown had just discovered that she was changing her story and this is what the delay was in regards to.

This long delay was later explained. There had been a posting on Facebook regarding the trial where the poster claimed to be either one of the jurors or acquainted with one. This threw everyone into a tizzy and they cleared the courtroom until it was proven that this was a lie and the post was taken down. Unfortunately, I can't at the moment find the Tweets that briefly explained this.

However, all subsequent delays where the jurors were removed had to do with voir dire. The public and press remained in the courtroom.

JMO