jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[Hello_Kitty]

Prisons should have to be self sufficient as they once were instead of operating off the taxpayer's money. I am not necessarily for the death penalty because that would be the easy way out IMO. A part of me does feel though they should have to suffer one blow to the head just as Tori did for the rest of their pathetic lives while suffering in a cell with no perks whatsoever. Someone the other day made an interesting comment to me in regards to the DP. He wondered what would be wrong with hanging a rope in their cell for them to do with what they pleased, that way no one would have to be the actual murderer?! JMO

Senator Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu also said that and he got alot of flak for it too.

Reaction from the opposition parties was swift. Interim NDP leader, Nycole Turmel, told CBC is was a "sad day." She further said,
I believe Mr. Harper should have a good discussion with the senator. If he maintains his views, he should be asked to withdraw from the Senate committee because that doesn't represent the Canadian society at all.

Boisvenu sits on the legal committee that is currently reviewing the government's omnibus crime bill.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/318861#ixzz1pV4TAoH0

 

[flipflop]

BBM

I think I would rather have them rehabilitated than not when they do get out

Rehabilitation does not seem to be working, too many of them end up back on the inside as they are repeat offenders. You cannot cure evil!!!!!!! I don't want them out, period.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Rehabilitation does not seem to be working, too many of them end up back on the inside as they are repeat offenders. You cannot cure evil!!!!!!! I don't want them out, period.

I understand you don't want them out, but if they are to get out after 25 years of serving a life sentence, I would rather have them rehabilitated than not. And some murderers CAN be rehabilitated. Perhaps not someone who is a pedophile, or someone like Bernardo who was designated a dangerous offender (he will likely never get out because of that designation). As for TLM, she will be offered rehabilitation, hopefully she'll take advantage of it, and depending on what happens with MR, if he is proven guilty and does get dangerous offender, he will likely spend the rest of his life in jail, but if he does get out ever, I'd rather he be rehabilited.

 

[antiquegirl]

I understand you don't want them out, but if they are to get out after 25 years of serving a life sentence, I would rather have them rehabilitated than not. And some murderers CAN be rehabilitated. Perhaps not someone who is a pedophile, or someone like Bernardo who was designated a dangerous offender (he will likely never get out because of that designation). As for TLM, she will be offered rehabilitation, hopefully she'll take advantage of it, and depending on what happens with MR, if he is proven guilty and does get dangerous offender, he will likely spend the rest of his life in jail, but if he does get out ever, I'd rather he be rehabilited.

ITA. When you originally wrote "rehabilitated", I understood that to mean that it was a successful rehabilitation, not to be confused with attempts at rehabilitation, which are often unsuccessful. As you implied, a rehabilitated ex-con is better than a non-rehabilitated ex-con.

Obviously, it makes no difference if they remain in jail, which is what most of us want anyway. But it could make a large difference IF they're ever released. I'd rather my tax dollars were spent on the attempt, than that some of these criminals ended up being released without any psychiatric help or job training. (I'm talking about criminals generally, not specifically these two.) They shouldn't be released because of it, but as they say, "it couldn't hoit".

JMO

 

[JayFriend]

Prisons should have to be self sufficient as they once were instead of operating off the taxpayer's money.

Of course, that would be the ideal. However, apparently it's Politically Incorrect. In the southern states there used to be chain gangs working on road maintenance and prisons surrounded by cotton fields that the inmates farmed. That was deemed to be slave labour and stopped. Here in Ontario, our Provincial Government is shutting down prison farms.

 

[otto]

Are you going to be the person who puts the needle in and administer the deadly drug? People like to talk big, but when it comes down to it, could they do it?

I doubt it. There's a reason there is more than one man on a firing squad.

These types of debates are always funny to me, not funny "haha" but funny in that everyone that is ok with the death penalty are "ok" with it as long as it's someone else that is actually doing the killing. Maybe all the people that are pro death should each take turns being the executioner. <modsnip>

The only westernized country that practices capital punishment is the United States. All other westernized countries hold hope for criminals and use various methods to attempt to rehabilitate them. I view the treatment of prisoners as an evolving process and think it would be a huge mistake for Canada to suddenly throw her hands in the air and claim that there is nothing to be done with criminals other than murder them. It would be a huge step backwards to practice capital punishment - something I view as barbaric.

Let's take McClintic. She had an unbelievably tragic life. If she had been raised in a normal home with good values and opportunity, there's an equal chance that she would have grown up to be a contributing member of society. I don't think that she's hopeless. I think that with 25 years of living a controlled life in prison, she does have the possibility of being reformed/rehabilitated. Rafferty is probably a different case. He had a pretty normal life, but he still developed an abnormal interest in young girls. I don't think that's treatable, so after he has his 25 years, he should probably always be monitored.

 

[crazyladi]

This is the best I can find. You can see he doesn't seem to have any tats below the sleeve, but there don't seem to be any pics of him showing the whole arm. And of course we don't know when this was taken. He could have gotten one after the shot.

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/...n=view&current=n620795286_6136554_3472334.jpg

This link here from you posted shows MR wearing the same shirt TLM was wearing in the hotel. Just something I observed lol not like it matters but it stood out to me.

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/...0Rafferty/?action=view&current=ex-comment.jpg

 

[crazyladi]

I just want to confirm something because there was so much information wrong and right floating around. Was MR and TS in the car at Home Depot? Is it confirmed that they were both in the car?

 

[crazyladi]

As of right now all i can conclude is that that TLM is saying she did pretty much all the crime as per evidence as well, however not a thing has been said about MR. I wonder if they have anything linking him to the crime.

The blood could have been there on the bag and the car because TLM used the car and the stuff in it. Is there proof that he was even there?

This is what has bothered me the whole time. There is nothing on him but speculation.

I want whoever is responsible to suffer but if they have no evidence of MR being there then there is a problem.

I find TLM's testimony alarming but there are also some things that done make sense.

She heard the rustle of the garbage bags. If someone did this why would they hear those noises? she remembers the rustle of the bags leads me to believe she didnt do the killing, but that is just what i think right now. Who says that? That isnt something you remember if you were taking part in the murder. MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Senator Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu also said that and he got alot of flak for it too.

Reaction from the opposition parties was swift. Interim NDP leader, Nycole Turmel, told CBC is was a "sad day." She further said,
I believe Mr. Harper should have a good discussion with the senator. If he maintains his views, he should be asked to withdraw from the Senate committee because that doesn't represent the Canadian society at all.

Boisvenu sits on the legal committee that is currently reviewing the government's omnibus crime bill.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/318861#ixzz1pV4TAoH0

Interesting that the Senator had a daughter who was abducted, raped and murdered in 2002. And although he's in favour of giving them a rope, even he is against the death penalty.

"No. I'm not in favour of the death penalty. I think people need to be given a chance. But other cases should be reconsidered."

 

[antiquegirl]

As of right now all i can conclude is that that TLM is saying she did pretty much all the crime as per evidence as well, however not a thing has been said about MR. I wonder if they have anything linking him to the crime.

The blood could have been there on the bag and the car because TLM used the car and the stuff in it. Is there proof that he was even there?

This is what has bothered me the whole time. There is nothing on him but speculation.

I want whoever is responsible to suffer but if they have no evidence of MR being there then there is a problem.

I find TLM's testimony alarming but there are also some things that done make sense.

She heard the rustle of the garbage bags. If someone did this why would they hear those noises? she remembers the rustle of the bags leads me to believe she didnt do the killing, but that is just what i think right now. Who says that? That isnt something you remember if you were taking part in the murder. MOO

According to the Crown's opening statements, there will be evidence pointing to MR being in the area - i.e. cell phone pings (IF he's the one using the phone), and videos of him using an ATM in the area. There is also supposed to be testimony from a drug connection that puts him in Guelph that afternoon. There will be DNA evidence that shows MR's blood mixed with Tori's on his gym bag. (But there always could be a transfer type explanation for this from the defence. Depends what the experts have to say.) Circumstantial stuff so far, but they could add up and there might be more. This evidence and other testimony is supposed to be exhibited and explored later in the trial.

The rustling garbage bags however, are from TLM's false accusation of MR back in 2009. This is not to be considered evidence, as she has now denied that the events were the same as she originally confessed. She now claims that she, herself, put one garbage bag over Tori's head before striking her and that both she and MR covered her with more bags after the attack was over.

HTH

 

[Alethea Dice]

I understand you don't want them out, but if they are to get out after 25 years of serving a life sentence, I would rather have them rehabilitated than not. And some murderers CAN be rehabilitated. Perhaps not someone who is a pedophile, or someone like Bernardo who was designated a dangerous offender (he will likely never get out because of that designation). As for TLM, she will be offered rehabilitation, hopefully she'll take advantage of it, and depending on what happens with MR, if he is proven guilty and does get dangerous offender, he will likely spend the rest of his life in jail, but if he does get out ever, I'd rather he be rehabilited.

He may not ever get out, even if he isn't declared a dangerous offender. Some seem to be under the misconception that a Life sentence means the offender is released in 25 years. That's not the case. Life means life, with no chance of parole for 25 years. The inmate must still apply for that parole in 25 years and not all are granted it. Even if granted parole, they are still under supervision and subject to conditions for the rest of their life.

http://pbc-clcc.gc.ca/infocntr/myths_reality-eng.shtml#mythten

Reality : A life sentence means life. Lifers will never again enjoy total freedom.

Lifers can only be released from prison if granted parole by the Board.

If granted parole they will, for the rest of their lives, remain subject to the conditions of parole and the supervision of a CSC parole officer. Parole may be revoked and offenders returned to prison at any time if they violate the conditions of parole or commit a new offence.

Not all lifers will be granted parole. Some may never be released on parole because they continue to represent too great a risk to re-offend.

 

[antiquegirl]

I just want to confirm something because there was so much information wrong and right floating around. Was MR and TS in the car at Home Depot? Is it confirmed that they were both in the car?

All we have been shown so far are videos of TLM inside Home Depot and again entering the car in the parking lot. No other people in the car can be seen in these videos (at least, not by us). So, no, not yet.

http://www.lfpress.com/video/1508251643001

HTH

 

[crazyladi]

So is it possible that MR told her to do everything from the ATM, Home Depot, etc as he knew that there were cameras? Or did she do it all just because? She isnt stupid nor is he. Someone watched a lot of CSI and other crime shows regarding blood splatter

 

[flipflop]

As of right now all i can conclude is that that TLM is saying she did pretty much all the crime as per evidence as well, however not a thing has been said about MR. I wonder if they have anything linking him to the crime. The blood could have been there on the bag and the car because TLM used the car and the stuff in it. Is there proof that he was even there?

This is what has bothered me the whole time. There is nothing on him but speculation. I want whoever is responsible to suffer but if they have no evidence of MR being there then there is a problem.

I find TLM's testimony alarming but there are also some things that done make sense.

She heard the rustle of the garbage bags. If someone did this why would they hear those noises? she remembers the rustle of the bags leads me to believe she didnt do the killing, but that is just what i think right now. Who says that? That isnt something you remember if you were taking part in the murder. MOO

We are just at the beginning of this trial....give it some time. The next few chapters of this trial seem to be directed at MR.

Chapter 3: Guelph -- video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there.

Chapter 5: Police interaction with Rafferty.

Chapter 6: The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7: The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8: Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9: Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8. "He had some interesting things to say to other people about Terri-Lynne McClintic and about the kidnapping itself," Gowdey said.

Chapter 10: The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11: The BlackBerry. The BlackBerry allowed police to track his movements April 8 and after.

You wouldn't create a new chapter if you had "nothing" to put in it!!!!

 

[crazyladi]

We are just at the beginning of this trial....give it some time. The next few chapters of this trial seem to be directed at MR.

Chapter 5: Police interaction with Rafferty.

Chapter 6: The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7: The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8: Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9: Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8. "He had some interesting things to say to other people about Terri-Lynne McClintic and about the kidnapping itself," Gowdey said.

Chapter 10: The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11: The BlackBerry. The BlackBerry allowed police to track his movements April 8 and after.

Ya I know there is a lot of evidence, I was just saying because everyone is quick to jump to the conclusion that he did it. I just want to see/hear what happened before I case my judgement. TLM confession I believe a little bit of both and I think she changed it for a reason and now the confession blaming MR for the murder is not allowed in court because she was only re-iterating the one she said when she said she was the one that killed TS.

 

[kmclaren]

This link here from you posted shows MR wearing the same shirt TLM was wearing in the hotel. Just something I observed lol not like it matters but it stood out to me.

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/...0Rafferty/?action=view&current=ex-comment.jpg

I remember when that photo of her was released, they described it as showing her in the hotel room wearing MR's clothes, looking happy...

 

[puppyraiser]

I doubt that TLM is considered "low risk" or ever will be. Certainly not after she admitted bludgeoning an innocent child to death. She is currently serving a life sentence in the Grand Valley Institution for Women. If MTR is convicted, he would most certainly not be considered "low risk", either.

KH made a notorious deal with the devil. I'd hope that the powers that be have learned a valuable lesson from her case.

JMO

KH did not make a deal with the devil. The prosecutors made a deal with "the devil" (KH) before the video tapes were found and showed just how involved she really was. Had those tapes been 'discovered' sooner, KH would still be sitting in jail. IMO

Just curious- since there apparently is video of MR in Guelph on the day of the abduction and we can assume Tori was in the car (although it is always dangerous to assume anything)..............what do you think MR planned to do with Tori after he sexually assaulted her?

My thoughts- A hammer and garbage bags were purchased PRIOR to them arriving in Mount Forest. Tori's fate was sealed when that money was withdrawn and the murder weapon was purchased. IMO MR and TLM BOTH planned on killing her as I doubt MR was oblivious or ignorant of what TLM purchased at Home Depot. I think MR knew there were cameras in HD and that's why TLM went inside.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

This link here from you posted shows MR wearing the same shirt TLM was wearing in the hotel. Just something I observed lol not like it matters but it stood out to me.

http://s657.photobucket.com/albums/...0Rafferty/?action=view&current=ex-comment.jpg

Thanks for the link. It this some kind of designer logo or event on his shirt?

I took a drive from Guelph past Cambridge this weekend and tried to find traffic cameras for either direction of this stretch of the 401. The only place where I could see a possibility of cameras would be around the exit near the Old Navy Store (Hespeler/Hwy 24) which I believe is where she said they came off the highway. Another possibility could be a camera from the various businesses along the highway but IMO these would be more focused on their own properties.

Back to TLM shoes. It occurred to me in TLM's testimony that TLM said she threw her shoes out and then MTR's. Her shoes could have landed close to each other as she ditched them but MTR may have been removing his while driving. Someone walking along the road in the days that followed could have picked up TLM's shoes and placed them in the bag in the picture for safe keeping which is why they appear to be in fairly good shape. Maybe they never came across MTR's and if he did go back to look for them, since he was roaming around for almost 6 weeks, perhaps he only found his own.

The removal of the battery from his phone I find quite baffling. If he was "smart" enough to remove it, why did he put it back in when he was in Guelph and then keep it in. IMO, TLM could have asked to use his phone and popped the battery out while he was concentrating on driving. He could have noticed this when he needed to use it again in Guelph and this is when he caught her messing with his phone. I hope they show who the last call was made to before "he" took the battery out.

 

[antiquegirl]

KH did not make a deal with the devil. The prosecutors made a deal with "the devil" (KH) before the video tapes were found and showed just how involved she really was. Had those tapes been 'discovered' sooner, KH would still be sitting in jail. IMO

(Respectfully snipped)

Oops! You're absolutely right. Slip of the tongue (or fingers in this case). :doh: Thanks for straightening that out.