Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[UKGuy]

Housekeeper stated JB and Patsy argued over what JB would wear to the party on the 23rd - JB relented and wore the velvet dress with the puffy sleeves that she is seen in, in a photo, as she is making her gingerbread house.

There was also a "tiff" between Patsy and JB over what she would wear to the Whites, and JB reportedly won that one, wearing the white/silver star shirt with the black velvet pants and vest. Patsy wanted her to wear the red turtleneck so they would be matching. (from a PR statement during one of her interviews)

I have read a couple of accounts of Patsy telling police when they arrived on the 26th that she had put JB to bed in the turtleneck. That story got changed in later statements.

And, yes, stepping over the note would have been tricky. But check out this YouTube clip, the 4:12 - 4:19 time marker, and you see the actress playing Patsy step over the note:
Getting Away With Murder 1.wmv - so guess it's not impossible.
FYI - the film has some conflicts with Patsy's clothing, if JB was awake at all, etc., but shows her in the red turtleneck being tucked into bed.

midwest mama,
Patsy might be fabricating the tiff with JonBenet, so as to explain away the red turtleneck lying in her bathroom?

Its notable that Patsy retracts a prior statement relating to the turtleneck, having done this, she now needs a rationale for its appearance in the bathroom, hence the tiff?

Not too dissimilar for the size-12 legend, where again JonBenet is presented as offering a preference for clothing, e.g. the size-12's.

I doubt this in both cases.



.

 

[DeeDee249]

Rashomon, iirc, Patsy wanted JonBenet to wear the red sweater and her "little black velvet pants" so she and Patsy would be dressed alike. JonBenet wanted to wear the sequined star top. Years ago I think we discussed this here or maybe on the old crime tv board how photos made at the White's party on the 25th would not be made public. A group of us wondered if it was because the photos showed JonBenet wearing the red sweater. I don't think the issue was resolved as to what she was really wearing.

It has been definitely resolved. The photos from the White's party show JB wearing the white top with sequin star. This has been confirmed since ST's book came out. While the photo have not been made public, ST did confirm this in his book and he wouldn't have said it if it were not true.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
Patsy might be fabricating the tiff with JonBenet, so as to explain away the red turtleneck lying in her bathroom?

Its notable that Patsy retracts a prior statement relating to the turtleneck, having done this, she now needs a rationale for its appearance in the bathroom, hence the tiff?

Not too dissimilar for the size-12 legend, where again JonBenet is presented as offering a preference for clothing, e.g. the size-12's.

I doubt this in both cases.



.

Checked my source, JonBenet: The Police Files, pg 47 where Patsy says they had a "riff", not a "tiff" as I said in my former post. Same thing,though?

I agree with you - Patsy gave all her statements after plenty of time had passed since the crime, and she and JR had lots of time to go over everything with their lawyer honchos.

I can imagine that if JB was really put to bed right after they returned home from the Whites, especially if she was just "groggy" and not "zonked", Patsy might have put the turtleneck on her to have a jump on getting her going for the flight the next morning. If Patsy truly was going to wear her party outfit again, then she'd finally have her way with JB wearing a match to her. Patsy seemed like the type who would have wanted to ULTIMATELY WIN!

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Housekeeper stated JB and Patsy argued over what JB would wear to the party on the 23rd - JB relented and wore the velvet dress with the puffy sleeves that she is seen in, in a photo, as she is making her gingerbread house.

There was also a "tiff" between Patsy and JB over what she would wear to the Whites, and JB reportedly won that one, wearing the white/silver star shirt with the black velvet pants and vest. Patsy wanted her to wear the red turtleneck so they would be matching. (from a PR statement during one of her interviews)

I have read a couple of accounts of Patsy telling police when they arrived on the 26th that she had put JB to bed in the turtleneck. That story got changed in later statements.

And, yes, stepping over the note would have been tricky. But check out this YouTube clip, the 4:12 - 4:19 time marker, and you see the actress playing Patsy step over the note:
Getting Away With Murder 1.wmv - so guess it's not impossible.
FYI - the film has some conflicts with Patsy's clothing, if JB was awake at all, etc., but shows her in the red turtleneck being tucked into bed.

John Ramsey said in early interview that he carried JonBenet up to bed and read her a story. Like he did every night.

Pasty said she went before John and changed JB clothes when she put her to bed. Some thought that Jonbenet might of had the red turtleneck under the white Gap shirt at the White. Somewhere in there the red turtleneck ended up in a ball in the bathroom.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Checked my source, JonBenet: The Police Files, pg 47 where Patsy says they had a "riff", not a "tiff" as I said in my former post. Same thing,though?

I agree with you - Patsy gave all her statements after plenty of time had passed since the crime, and she and JR had lots of time to go over everything with their lawyer honchos.

I can imagine that if JB was really put to bed right after they returned home from the Whites, especially if she was just "groggy" and not "zonked", Patsy might have put the turtleneck on her to have a jump on getting her going for the flight the next morning. If Patsy truly was going to wear her party outfit again, then she'd finally have her way with JB wearing a match to her. Patsy seemed like the type who would have wanted to ULTIMATELY WIN!

JonBenet sheets reeked of urine when LE got there that day. Linda Hoffman Pugh changed her sheet on Monday and said the ones found on JonBenet's bed were not the same.

JonBenet slept in Burke's room Christmas Eve night. Did John or Pasty put Jonbenet to bed with clean sheets or dirty sheets Christmas night? If not then when did those sheets get wet?

 

[midwest mama]

JonBenet sheets reeked of urine when LE got there that day. Linda Hoffman Pugh changed her sheet on Monday and said the ones found on JonBenet's bed were not the same.

JonBenet slept in Burke's room Christmas Eve night. Did John or Pasty put Jonbenet to bed with clean sheets or dirty sheets Christmas night? If not then when did those sheets get wet?

The bolded statement above does not jive with Patsy's statement made in April 1997: JonBenet, Police Files, pg 35, where she says JB was in her bed, and then says she didn't think JB went into Burke's room, but also says, I just don't remember.

Thinking through when the sheets got wet:

Option 1:Housekeeper put other clean sheets on during the day of 23.
JB stayed dry overnite.
Housekeeper sheets likely 24-25.
JB stayed dry overnite 24-25.
JB came to early Christmas morning in matching set of dry pink pj's.
Housekeeper sheets likely 25-26, since only 2 days used, and no bedwetting.
So, for smelly different sheets found morning of 26th, sheets would have had to be changed out once during the 25-26th, meaning the housekeeper sheets were soiled, and then the clean sheets got soiled the 2nd time during the 25-26 night.

Option 2: Housekeeper put other clean sheets on during day of 23.
JB wet bed overnite.
Patsy puts on clean sheets morn of 24.
JB Stays dry overnite 24-25.
JB comes to Christmas morning in matching set of dry pink pj's.
JB goes to bed in dry, changed Patsy sheets. JB wets sheets sometime during 25-26.

Option 3: Housekeeper put other clean sheets on during day of 23.
JB wet bed overnite.
Patsy puts on clean sheets morn of 24
JB wets overnight 24-25.
JB changes herself into clean pink pj's early Christmas morn, for Santa gifts, leaves wet bed.

Patsy either now would have had to leave sheets on bed for them to be same sheets found morn of 26th, meaning JB was put into dirty sheets on 25th,
OR, Patsy changed sheets again Christmas day, JB was put down into clean sheets night of 25th, and wet the bed again 25-26, for them to have been found soiled on the 26th.

In case of Option 3, she was taken, or got out of bed on her own, in wet bed clothes, maybe even twice on Christmas night, if Option 1.

Whew, my brain is burned! :hot:

 

[txsvicki]

Also, patsy never did housework so she could have put dirty sheets from the 24th back on the bed to make it appear that jonbenet was in her bed that night and had wet.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

In reading at Acandyrose, Pasty said JonBenet and a few others kids rode in her BMW in the parade on the December 6th. In the warrant it lists John's jaguar and a 1996 jeep in the garage. Did Pasty get a new SUV for her birthday?

 

[OpenMind4U]

The bolded statement above does not jive with Patsy's statement made in April 1997: JonBenet, Police Files, pg 35, where she says JB was in her bed, and then says she didn't think JB went into Burke's room, but also says, I just don't remember.

Thinking through when the sheets got wet:

Option 1:Housekeeper put other clean sheets on during the day of 23.
JB stayed dry overnite.
Housekeeper sheets likely 24-25.
JB stayed dry overnite 24-25.
JB came to early Christmas morning in matching set of dry pink pj's.
Housekeeper sheets likely 25-26, since only 2 days used, and no bedwetting.
So, for smelly different sheets found morning of 26th, sheets would have had to be changed out once during the 25-26th, meaning the housekeeper sheets were soiled, and then the clean sheets got soiled the 2nd time during the 25-26 night.

Option 2: Housekeeper put other clean sheets on during day of 23.
JB wet bed overnite.
Patsy puts on clean sheets morn of 24.
JB Stays dry overnite 24-25.
JB comes to Christmas morning in matching set of dry pink pj's.
JB goes to bed in dry, changed Patsy sheets. JB wets sheets sometime during 25-26.

Option 3: Housekeeper put other clean sheets on during day of 23.
JB wet bed overnite.
Patsy puts on clean sheets morn of 24
JB wets overnight 24-25.
JB changes herself into clean pink pj's early Christmas morn, for Santa gifts, leaves wet bed.

Patsy either now would have had to leave sheets on bed for them to be same sheets found morn of 26th, meaning JB was put into dirty sheets on 25th,
OR, Patsy changed sheets again Christmas day, JB was put down into clean sheets night of 25th, and wet the bed again 25-26, for them to have been found soiled on the 26th.

In case of Option 3, she was taken, or got out of bed on her own, in wet bed clothes, maybe even twice on Christmas night, if Option 1.

Whew, my brain is burned! :hot:

LOL...I need to change my sheets now!!!:woohoo:Thank you for a comic relief!!!....on serious note: thank you!...I'll read it again...

 

[midwest mama]

In reading at Acandyrose, Pasty said JonBenet and a few others kids rode in her BMW in the parade on the December 6th. In the warrant it lists John's jaguar and a 1996 jeep in the garage. Did Pasty get a new SUV for her birthday?

AND a big surprise party thrown for her in November which included several people and a bus, AND a cruise on a Disney Boat for the whole family?
Quite a 40th Birthday celebration!

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Also, patsy never did housework so she could have put dirty sheets from the 24th back on the bed to make it appear that jonbenet was in her bed that night and had wet.

In ways that is giving Pasty to much credit. I don't think she would of thought of something like that. They didn't own up to their own bowl and JonBenet being up eating.

LHP said the only housework Pasty did was changed Jonbenet's sheet and white blanket. Steve Thomas went over JonBenet's bed with Pasty and asked her about the quilt being still tucked at the foot of the bed and that it didn't look like the white blanket was pulled off the bed.

Pasty could of changed the sheets and not of put the white blanket back on the bed and that would be JonBenet being put to bed that night with clean sheets, having a accident, got up and put the Gap top back on? Pasty said she put the long johns on JonBenet that night when she put her to bed.

The had urine stains on the front from when she died. There were also stains on the white blanket when found. Some think the white blanket was in the dryer ( the larger washing machine and dryer in the basement) and someone retrieved to to wrapped her in then placed her in the wine cellar. The blanket looked like the pink pj top was clinging to the blanket from static from the dryer.

 

[midwest mama]

In ways that is giving Pasty to much credit. I don't think she would of thought of something like that. They didn't own up to their own bowl and JonBenet being up eating.

LHP said the only housework Pasty did was changed Jonbenet's sheet and white blanket. Steve Thomas went over JonBenet's bed with Pasty and asked her about the quilt being still tucked at the foot of the bed and that it didn't look like the white blanket was pulled off the bed.

Pasty could of changed the sheets and not of put the white blanket back on the bed and that would be JonBenet being put to bed that night with clean sheets, having a accident, got up and put the Gap top back on? Pasty said she put the long johns on JonBenet that night when she put her to bed.

The had urine stains on the front from when she died. There were also stains on the white blanket when found. Some think the white blanket was in the dryer ( the larger washing machine and dryer in the basement) and someone retrieved to to wrapped her in then placed her in the wine cellar. The blanket looked like the pink pj top was clinging to the blanket from static from the dryer.

Clarification: Pink PJ top from Christmas morn is shown on her bed, but no bottoms. It was her pink Barbie nightgown that was with the blanket.

 

[txsvicki]

I thought that it was never established that the white blanket had urine stains.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I thought that it was never established that the white blanket had urine stains.

...you're correct. I think the only brown mucus was found on blanket...?

 

[Whaleshark]

Blood on the blanket. It's in that lab report.

Here again - from a thread at FFJ discussing DNA and Kolar's Book - pasted by Cynic:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10137&page=3

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)
EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties#
14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

P.S. - notice all the places there is blood - shirt, panties, blanket, nightgown, JonBenet herself.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Blood on the blanket. It's in that lab report.

Here again - from a thread at FFJ discussing DNA and Kolar's Book - pasted by Cynic:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10137&page=3

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)
EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties#
14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

P.S. - notice all the places there is blood - shirt, panties, blanket, nightgown, JonBenet herself.

Whaleshark, thank you!!!..WOW....Why I was under impression that brown mucus (kind of bloody mucus ) were on her shirt and blanket, not blood?...hmmmm...interesting...I need to go back to ST and other books....thank you again!!!

 

[midwest mama]

Here is a text copy from a post of Cherokee's, Aug 3, 2012, post #36. It's a bit simpler for me to understand so wanted to share:


To answer your question about the blood ... no, it did not come from JonBenet's hymen.

From the lab report:

BLOODSTAINS FROM SHIRT
BLOODSTAINS FROM PANTIES
BLOODSTAIN STANDARD FROM JONBENET RAMSEY
SWAB WITH SALIVA
RIGHT AND LEFT HAND FINGERNAILS FROM JONBENET RAMSEY
SAMPLES FROM TAPE
BLOODSTAIN FROM WHITE BLANKET
BLOODSTAINS FROM NIGHTGOWN
SEMEN STAINS FROM BLACK BLANKET
BLOODSTAIN STANDARD FROM JOHN ANDREW RAMSEY

A "bloodstain standard" is a blood sample drawn from a person to compare with the other items collected as evidence.

So we have:

Bloodstains from shirt
Bloodstains from panties

Bloodstain STANDARD from JonBenet Ramsey

Swab with saliva (JonBenet)
Right & left hand fingernails (scraping) (JonBenet)
Samples (DNA) from tape (JonBenet)

Bloodstain from white blanket
Bloodstains from nightgown

Semen stains from black blanket
Bloodstain standard from John Andrew Ramsey

(There are more entries below this on the report, but that is all that is able to be seen on the screen capture.)

According to this lab report, there were four different areas where samples of blood were found and analyzed:

shirt
panties
white blanket
nightgown


These samples could have been as tiny as a miniscule drop or larger. "Bloodstain" does not literally mean a huge bloodstain but is lab lingo for the sample prepared for analysis.
__________________
As soon as the ransom note was matched to Patsy's handwriting and linguistics, the Ramseys distanced themselves from it and have refused to talk about it since! The ransom note is the one verifiable link to JonBenet's killer, and the Ramseys want nothing to do with it! Why? The answer is obvious!

RANSOM NOTE ANALYSIS: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404"]Analysis of the Linguistics and Handwriting in the Ramsey Ransom Note - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[rashomon]

Rashomon, iirc, Patsy wanted JonBenet to wear the red sweater and her "little black velvet pants" so she and Patsy would be dressed alike. JonBenet wanted to wear the sequined star top. Years ago I think we discussed this here or maybe on the old crime tv board how photos made at the White's party on the 25th would not be made public. A group of us wondered if it was because the photos showed JonBenet wearing the red sweater. I don't think the issue was resolved as to what she was really wearing.

BOESP,

JonBenet was not wearing the red turtleneck to the Whites' party. We know this from Steve Thomas who answered this question during a Q & A session in a chat on Nov 14/2000:

http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/stchat.html


[Chat log provided per About.Com Crime Page] November 14, 2000

crimeADM: Was JonBenet definitely wearing the red turtleneck at the Whites' party?


stevethomas: no, she was wearing the white top in which her body was eventually found the next day.

 

[UKGuy]

Checked my source, JonBenet: The Police Files, pg 47 where Patsy says they had a "riff", not a "tiff" as I said in my former post. Same thing,though?

I agree with you - Patsy gave all her statements after plenty of time had passed since the crime, and she and JR had lots of time to go over everything with their lawyer honchos.

I can imagine that if JB was really put to bed right after they returned home from the Whites, especially if she was just "groggy" and not "zonked", Patsy might have put the turtleneck on her to have a jump on getting her going for the flight the next morning. If Patsy truly was going to wear her party outfit again, then she'd finally have her way with JB wearing a match to her. Patsy seemed like the type who would have wanted to ULTIMATELY WIN!

midwest mama,
Sure looks like the same thing. I reckon the red turtleneck played some role. Possibly JonBenet was wearing it in advance of her trip, and it was this that caused the initial strangulation, or it was used as staging, to hide any marks on JonBenet's neck?

This was all reconfigured once they decided upon a kidnapping scenario? But Patsy forgot all about the White Gap Top from the night before, despite her riff with JonBenet and told BPD JonBenet had been wearing the red turtleneck when put to bed.

Something changed in that period between the head bash and the asphyxiation, since we have a red turleneck lying in JonBenet's bathroom, her feces soiled black pants on the floor, and feces smeared on her candy box. Also we have a pink barbie nightgown and doll lying in the wine-cellar. These items have not arrived there by accident.

You could be right. Patsy may have intended to wear her party clothes the next day and told JonBenet she would wear the red turtleneck for the plane journey the following day?



.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

midwest mama,
Sure looks like the same thing. I reckon the red turtleneck played some role. Possibly JonBenet was wearing it in advance of her trip, and it was this that caused the initial strangulation, or it was used as staging, to hide any marks on JonBenet's neck?

This was all reconfigured once they decided upon a kidnapping scenario? But Patsy forgot all about the White Gap Top from the night before, despite her riff with JonBenet and told BPD JonBenet had been wearing the red turtleneck when put to bed.

Something changed in that period between the head bash and the asphyxiation, since we have a red turleneck lying in JonBenet's bathroom, her feces soiled black pants on the floor, and feces smeared on her candy box. Also we have a pink barbie nightgown and doll lying in the wine-cellar. These items have not arrived there by accident.

You could be right. Patsy may have intended to wear her party clothes the next day and told JonBenet she would wear the red turtleneck for the plane journey the following day?



.

I've never really paid attention to the bowl of pineapple, but noticed that it says half eaten chunks of pineapple in the bowl. I wonder if someone got pissed if JonBenet.


Does anyone else worry about that walk in fridge where the pineapple was kept? What kept the door open for a little girl?