Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022

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There's a subforum in this thread devoted to school abductions.

I went to the subform and scanned through the cases involving kidnappings of students.

It seemed that the majority were of students walking to or from school, or being at bus stop.

There were a smaller percentage that were kidnapped from the campus itself. I saw 2 or 3 where a predator came into the school or the grounds to lure a child, like some think may have happened here. @ of them were 20 to 30 years ago, and the 3rd was Ted Bundy with the girl walking outside her classroom.

The other recent students taken from school were by parents or step-parents, fraudulently signing them out of class.
 
Probable cause is needed for indictment. LE have presented their evidence to a grand jury in 2010 and 2013 (as far as we know), and in twelve years they have not gotten the grand jury to indict, neither for the abduction nor for the hired murder attempt. I do believe whatever the MCSO or Kaine believes, what they have is not at the level of probable cause. My guess, much below that level.
It often takes a very long time to catch a killer.
 
Thank you! That's interesting. I must say, if the grand jury is still hearing evidence in 2017, it certainly doesn't sound like they have probable cause.
I would think that they have a bit more evidence each time they take it to the Grand Jury. It would be more well crafted and better prepared as well. JMO
 
How many of them were the subject of a failed police sting, based on a bogus murder-for-hire plot, that tore their family apart? How many of them had their faces plastered on police posters, and had constant police leaks through family members?

It's not like Terri Horman can't talk to the police, she just requires them to go through her lawyer and have him be present. According to her (the dr Phil interview, I believe) the police have never requested an interview since she got her lawyer. I've never seen the police claim otherwise.
What is the point of interviewing someone who has lawyered up? Have you watched how those go? The lawyer just whispers 'don't answer that' repeatedly and then everyone goes home, with no further clarity on the case.
 
Not necessarily. I think that^^^ is making it seem more difficult and complicated than it would be. She could have easily given him something to knock him out, and hidden him in the truck. Then carried out her errands in public, collecting receipts and cctv footage.

What something would that be?

I would think that they have a bit more evidence each time they take it to the Grand Jury. It would be more well crafted and better prepared as well. JMO

How long can you put a case before a grand jury before they indict? I've tried to look up precedents, but I haven't found any case where a grand jury was looking at the same case for twelve years without returning a bill.

What is the point of interviewing someone who has lawyered up? Have you watched how those go? The lawyer just whispers 'don't answer that' repeatedly and then everyone goes home, with no further clarity on the case.

Maybe that's how it'll go. But if the police have actual genuine questions that Terri can answer, and aren't just itching to pressure her into a confession, shouldn't they try? People have heaped blame upon Terri for not lying down and letting everyone walk all over her and her rights, even in the case of her innocence, yet the police just throw up their hands and give up at the slightest setback?
 
@FergusMcDuck

I want to thank you for putting evidence first. I bowed out of this thread long ago as I am pro Kyron Richard Horman and trying to figure out what happened to him.

I discovered that this isn't the thread for that as, unfailingly, any attempt to input anything or any type of scenario that does NOT have Terri as the perpatrator or even one that doesn't name her turns into a, "Go ask Terri what happened" debate. 12 years and nada.

I am also with you on the scenario that Kyron disappeared from Skyline through the South entrance door. Willing to work through scenarios with you and I'll attempt to ignore the 'but Terri/go ask Terri' posts that will inevitably be made as they take away from discussion about Kyron, his whereabouts and attempts to solve and make this thread about her and not him.

Justice for Kyron.
 
@FergusMcDuck

I want to thank you for putting evidence first. I bowed out of this thread long ago as I am pro Kyron Richard Horman and trying to figure out what happened to him.

I discovered that this isn't the thread for that as, unfailingly, any attempt to input anything or any type of scenario that does NOT have Terri as the perpatrator or even one that doesn't name her turns into a, "Go ask Terri what happened" debate. 12 years and nada.

I am also with you on the scenario that Kyron disappeared from Skyline through the South entrance door. Willing to work through scenarios with you and I'll attempt to ignore the 'but Terri/go ask Terri' posts that will inevitably be made as they take away from discussion about Kyron, his whereabouts and attempts to solve and make this thread about her and not him.

Justice for Kyron.

That's very kind of you to say. I definitely appreciated your posts whenever I went looking at the older threads.

If I have some time this week, I'll see if I can do some data-gathering, because @ChatteringBirds was completely correct: truth and rumor are really muddled in this case.
 
"Yeah, but it should be plausible, I think. The scenarios needed for Terri to be guilty are incredibly contrived. She either has to kill Kyron in a public place, in full view of the road, the church and the entrance to the parking lot, or she has to have him alive in the truck at three public places, not to mention the road between them. She has to have made the bioparents believe Kyron was at school, but she also have to have the school believe he was with her (which doesn't make sense in itself - why would she concoct a story that explicitely puts her and Kyron together?).

I wouldn't call "in full view of a road and a church" "amazingly private"."


Not necessarily. I think that^^^ is making it seem more difficult and complicated than it would be. She could have easily given him something to knock him out, and hidden him in the truck. Then carried out her errands in public, collecting receipts and cctv footage.
Sometimes a "like" doesn't seem to be enough. Thank you.

BBM - yes, that's what is being done.
 
IMPORTANT ADMIN WARNING

Kyron’s discussion seems to have veered into numerous violations of the Websleuths’ TOS. Because there are only a handful of VOLUNTEER moderators and administrators, we do not “patrol” threads watching for violations and catching them when they occur. Instead, we RELY on members to send REPORTS for any questionable posts that are not in line with the WS rules. It is disappointing that we have not received any Reports in spite of the multiple violating posts that I have come upon in my cursory visit to this thread this morning.

Here is the deal in a nutshell:
- It is FINE to express your opinion when it is based on facts that have been published by MSM or LE in this case.
- Opposing opinions are also fine, IF they do not call out/confront/disparage another member’s post, which is considered “PERSONALIZING”, and a violation of TOS.
- HINT: if you quote a post, and then use the word ‘YOU’ in your post to argue an opposing view, that reads as “calling out” another member, which = PERSONALIZING.
- If you state something as fact, TOS require that you substantiate it with a DIRECT LINK to the MSM or LE source of that fact. Fact and theories tend to get blurred as time goes on, and WS standards remain FACT-BASED. If you can’t provide a link, you cannot say it is FACT.
- Books about this case MUST be approved before discussing their content. Once approved, they are NOT considered FACT, but simply an approved source for discussion. Only MSM and LE sources are approved to substantiate facts.
- Going forward, violations may result in removed posts, Warning Points, Thread Bans, and/or Time Outs, either Temporary or Permanent.

It would be a daunting task for WS staff to comb through previous posts and threads to remove all those that are in violation. We cannot do that. However, GOING FORWARD, PLEASE REPORT ANY POSTS THAT ARE IN VIOLATION OF WEBSLEUTHS RULES. The Rules can/SHOULD be reviewed by following the link in my signature below.

Kyron’s disappearance continues to hurt our hearts, and we ALL want the same thing - to find Kyron, and to bring to justice anyone who played a part in his going missing from the one of the places he should have been the most safe and secure. As a teacher myself, this case affected me deeply, and was an assault on what I worked for all my life.

PLEASE HELP US KEEP KYRON’S DISCUSSION ON WEBSLEUTHS OPEN AND UP TO THE GOLD STANDARDS OUR FORUM IS KNOWN FOR. We are happy to answer questions you have. Please follow the TOS we ALL agreed to when we joined. KYRON DESERVES THAT FROM US.

Faithfully,
CocoChanel
Administrator/Moderator
 
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IMPORTANT ADMIN WARNING

Kyron’s discussion seems to have veered into numerous violations of the Websleuths’ TOS. Because there are only a handful of VOLUNTEER moderators and administrators, we do not “patrol” threads watching for violations and catching them when they occur. Instead, we RELY on members to send REPORTS for any questionable posts that are not in line with the WS rules. It is disappointing that we have not received any Reports in spite of the multiple violating posts that I have come upon my cursory visit to this thread this morning.

Here is the deal in a nutshell:
- It is FINE to express your opinion when it is based on facts that have been published by MSM or LE in this case.
- Opposing opinions are also fine, IF they do not call out/confront/disparage another member’s post, which is considered “PERSONALIZING”, and a violation of TOS.
- HINT: if you quote a post, and then use the word ‘YOU’ in your post to argue an opposing view, that reads as “calling out” another member, which = PERSONALIZING.
- If you state something as fact, TOS require that you substantiate it with a DIRECT LINK to the MSM or LE source of that fact. Fact and theories tend to get blurred as time goes on, and WS standards remain FACT-BASED. If you can’t provide a link, you cannot say it is FACT.
- Books about this case MUST be approved before discussing their content. Once approved, they are NOT considered FACT, but simply an approved source for discussion. Only MSM and LE sources are approved to substantiate facts.
- Going forward, violations may result in removed posts, Warning Points, Thread Bans, and/or Time Outs, either Temporary or Permanent.

It would be a daunting task for WS staff to comb through previous posts and threads to remove all those that are in violation. We cannot do that. However, GOING FORWARD, PLEASE REPORT ANY POSTS THAT ARE IN VIOLATION OF WEBSLEUTHS RULES. The Rules can/SHOULD be reviewed by following the link in my signature below.

Kyron’s disappearance continues to hurt our hearts, and we ALL want the same thing - to find Kyron, and to bring to justice anyone who played a part in his going missing from the one of the places he should have been the most safe and secure. As a teacher myself, this case affected me deeply, and was an assault on what I worked for all my life.

PLEASE HELP US KEEP KYRON’S DISCUSSION ON WEBSLEUTHS OPEN AND UP TO THE GOLD STANDARDS OUR FORUM IS KNOWN FOR. We are happy to answer questions you have. Please follow the TOS we ALL agreed to when we joined. KYRON DESERVES THAT FROM US.

Faithfully,
CocoChanel
Administrator/Moderator
Speaking about books, is Boy Missing by Rebecca Morris approved? I apologize if I missed the post stating one way or the other. TIA for clarifying, and I truly appreciate your reminder.
 
There was no email telling the school Kyron would be absent on June 4th. Even the Morris book dances around it:



Note the passive voice "was told" and no identified speaker. Who told the school office? Ms Porter? Was the bolded actual information from the police, or was it Ms Porter's erroneous belief based on memories of earlier conversations?
Law enforcement has the email, in my opinion.


The problems with the Terri-did-it scenario that this alleged email solves just causes far more problems. Her removal of the child was concealed, no one saw her take Kyron, and she denied doing so from day one. Yet she also wrote an email telling the school she was taking Kyron out to delay discovery of his absence, actual text that could be shown to the police. You don't create alibis and then put your victim in them!
"No one saw her take Kyron" -- so is this an implication that the witnesses don't exist? Just like the email doesn't exist.

"... don't create alibis and then put your victim in them"! -- Well, apparently some people do. It seemed to work well enough in this case.


If the email existed, this is what would have happened. The police would have stated publically that Terri had taken Kyron out of school and called for anyone who saw them together in the truck to come forward. Yet their words and actions after the abductions show not that they know she took him, but that they suspect she took him and are trying to get evidence that she did. If that email existed, they wouldn't need to do that.
I don't think anyone can speak for law enforcement regarding what they did, didn't do, or should have done. They handled the investigation the way they handled it. It's still open, so they're still working on it.

I hope they make an arrest soon.


I did say that, and according to Desiree it's correct. Both statements are.



Here's what's in the Morris book:



Hard to interpret that as anything different than Desiree telling LE she believed Terri was the culprit. The thing I don't know is the reasons she gave LE. It could have been the ones specified earlier in the book (as quoted earlier). It could have been something else. We don't know.
Whatever Desiree's reasons were, it sure doesn't look like she was wrong, in my opinion.


Yet she never says she came up those stairs, did she? She's always to my knowledge said she came up the stairs by the gym (as she does in the video). All she says about that position is that she last saw Kyron there. Coming up from a stairwell and walking a couple of meters to the stairs leading to the exit, waving goodbye, then walking out. Makes perfect sense to me, but to someone with a guilt-centric mindset and a hazy recollection of the school layout?
She said she last saw Kyron at his classroom door. Which is way down at the other end of the hallway from where she said she was.

And the distance between where she placed herself and where she seemed to have suddenly appeared is much greater than a couple of meters. It's the length of two classrooms plus the school office. She said nothing about walking to that location; she placed herself at the top of the stairwell by the gym watching Kyron "going down the hallway". The last thing she remembered was the "back of his head" as he got "right about" at his classroom door. At no time did she indicate she walked from the top of the stairwell by the gym to the "front door, south entrance." But she was suddenly there. Where (according to her) Kyron was seen by the school secretary and another child after she left.

Bizzare, in my opinion.


Also, from neither position would Kyron be hidden from view. Desiree tries to equivocate on this in the Morris book, but look at the map in the video. Where is the position from where the hallway to 213 can't be seen?
Those could be old floor plans not showing newer renovations, or there could have been something set up in the hallway. Who knows?

I wonder where all the people that were later outside crowding the parking lot were at that time?


Right? Terri used a perfectly normal phrasing to say she drove Kyron to the school and left him there. This is what I mean about guilt-centric mindset. It simply bypasses the normal explanations (that it is a common and normal phrase to use) and immediately goes for the guilty one (she used a phrase that didn't convey all the minor details of what she did in the school, thus she tried to minimize her presence there).
Except it's not a common and normal phrase that most people would use when describing what they last did with their 7-year-old missing stepson, in my opinion.

I would only say I dropped someone off if I gave them a lift somewhere and pulled over long enough to let them get out of the vehicle. That's what dropping someone off means to me. But driving someone somewhere, escorting that someone into a building, doing a tour, visiting, taking a picture--I would never describe that as dropping someone off.

And if that someone was my 7-year-old missing stepson and I was the last person to see him and law enforcement was investigating his disappearance--no. Never.
 
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She could have told him sit in the car and drink a milkshake or something while she talked on the phone.and then we'll go back to class...all she had to do was wait for him to become disoriented and then go drive around until he died.

I think poison or drugs is the best shot..it's a woman's favorite method of murder. this way no marks on her, nothing no evidence..all she has to do is dispose of a few unremarkable items, and Kyron.. I also think she could have beat him, but that may have been too risky.. Terri has not been truthful...sorry she has not..and why lie if you have nothing to hide? too many lies involved in this story. mOO
 
Law enforcement has the email, in my opinion.

I find the idea that they have an email with a June 4th appointment and no indictment to be highly unlikely. If they have an email, that date would not be in it. That's the only way I can reconcile how the investigation has proceeded so far.

"No one saw her take Kyron" -- so is this an implication that the witnesses don't exist? Just like the email doesn't exist.

The witnesses exist, it's just that I don't trust that they saw Terri taking Kyron. The problem is that the information doesn't come from LE. Same as with the supposed email.

"[Redacted by me] don't create alibis and then put your victim in them"! -- Well, apparently some people do. It seemed to work well enough in this case.

Except we don't know that she put the victim in her alibi, since neither she nor LE nor any witness has ever claimed that she did.

I don't think anyone can speak for law enforcement regarding what they did, didn't do, or should have done. They handled the investigation the way they handled it. It's still open, so they're still working on it.

I hope they make an arrest soon.

I don't think we'll see an arrest. Perhaps if the FBI take over, and then I expect the arrest to be of someone who isn't Terri.

She says she last saw Kyron at his classroom door. Which is way down at the other end of the hallway from where she said she was.

And the distance between where she placed herself and where she seemed to have suddenly appeared is much more than a couple of meters. It's the length of two classrooms plus the school office. She says nothing about walking to that location; she places herself at the top of the stairwell by the gym watching Kyron "going down the hallway".

You can see the distance between the stairwells in the map in this post. That's half a classroom and a small office at most (specifically office 205 and half of classroom 203).

The last thing she remembers is the "back of his head" as he got "right about" at his classroom door. At no time does she indicate she walked from the top of the stairwell by the gym to the "front door, south entrance." But she was suddenly there. Where (according to her) Kyron was seen by the school secretary and another child after she left.

Taking a handful of steps would have gotten her there. It really isn't a discrepancy, since she never said she went up those stairs to my knowledge.

Bizzare and all lies, in my opinion. We know now that law enforcement has verified the exact time the "picture" was taken. At 8:45 am. In Kyron's classroom.

We don't know this, actually. LE has not released that information.

Those could be old floor plans not showing newer renovations, or there could have been something set up in the hallway. Who knows?

It's a hallway. You see the same thing from one place as the other. There's no curve, no corner. Desiree claims she questioned Terri on the stairs thing over the phone, before she was in Portland, so she would have no way of knowing if anything had been set up to block, and even if there was, it would be impossible to block of the entire hallway.

Except it's not a common and normal phrase to use when describing what you last did with your 7-year-old missing stepson.

I would only say I dropped someone off if I gave them a lift somewhere and pulled over long enough to let them get out of the vehicle. That's dropping someone off. But driving someone somewhere, escorting that someone into a building, doing a tour, visiting, taking a picture--I would never describe that as dropping someone off.

Dropping off means you took someone to a place and left them there. She was in the school about 30 minutes. It certainly qualifies.
 
She could have told him sit in the car and drink a milkshake or something while she talked on the phone.and then we'll go back to class...all she had to do was wait for him to become disoriented and then go drive around until he died.

But she wouldn't have time for that. She had to leave the school only a few minutes after 8:45 at most, if her schedule is to match up, and then spent an hour in public places in urban areas, including more than one occasion where Kyron would be in the truck alone, fully visible to everybody.

I think poison or drugs is the best shot..it's a woman's favorite method of murder.

But what poison could that be? What would be not only instantaneous and silent (the only way she could do it at the school and/or the shopping trip) but also readily available to a stay-at-home mother?

this way no marks on her, nothing no evidence..all she has to do is dispose of a few unremarkable items, and Kyron.. I also think she could have beat him, but that may have been too risky.. Terri has not been truthful...sorry she has not..and why lie if you have nothing to hide? too many lies involved in this story. mOO

Does anyone know a single identifiable lie Terri has told? I'm not saying that she has never lied (since everybody lies at some point), but I keep seeing her labled a liar, and I don't know why.
 
<modsnip> While I know the statistics on child abductions (whether by a parent or stranger), no body has been found; therefore, there is a small chance that Kyron is still alive somewhere.
 
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She could have told him sit in the car and drink a milkshake or something while she talked on the phone.and then we'll go back to class...all she had to do was wait for him to become disoriented and then go drive around until he died.

I think poison or drugs is the best shot..it's a woman's favorite method of murder. this way no marks on her, nothing no evidence..all she has to do is dispose of a few unremarkable items, and Kyron.. I also think she could have beat him, but that may have been too risky.. Terri has not been truthful...sorry she has not..and why lie if you have nothing to hide? too many lies involved in this story. mOO
How could she explain an unconscious Kyron in the truck if seen?
How could she obtain this poison without leaving a trail?
 
Wait, so she told the school she was taking Kyron - in writing even! - and openly walked outside with him as was her right, but she also didn't say a formal goodbye because there'd be witnesses to her taking Kyron? These are two theories, two scenarios, two plans that just don't make sense together.
One theory. One scenario. She knew there would be witnesses and she also knew it would be to her advantage to limit their numbers as much as possible.


It's not a matter of risks. It's a matter of having two different plans in motion as well as creating two sets of witnesses, that the police would find out about within seconds and she had to have known that.
Just as Ted Bundy took risks during his stealing escapades. He knew the risks but chose to take them.


It's not out of sight for anyone leaving the parking lot, and there were hundreds of parents there that morning - and the supposed murder would have happened just as most of them would leave.
It seems to have been forgotten that this is my theory. Only my theory. I also theorized it could have been a perfect location for a third party to be introduced.

However, I wonder where these hundreds of parents were when she was at the top of the stairs by the gym and Kyron was way down the hallway near his classroom door? I would think some of them would be walking in the hallway. But apparently, she had a clear line of sight.


Doesn't really matter. It's another complication that makes it extremely irrational to attempt a murder out in public, in plain sight.
If the baby was in a stroller, her hands would have been free.


We don't need to see through a truck. If it was parked as in the police images, both sides of it would be plainly visible from the entrance to the parking lot, where all the parents would be exiting.
<modsnip>

No one could see what was going on way down that curved access road; there is no line of sight there. None. And no one at the church could see through the vehicle, in my opinion.


Yes, and that's where I believe the mystery man led him outside.
Yes, and that's a very interesting quote provided to MSM by Sheriff Dan Staton. The location of that witness sighting is very interesting in regard to my theory.
 
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opiates, visine, sleeping pills, rat poison, benzos, any of these things can easily kill a small child.

my grandmother was a detective and caught a woman poisoning her husband in the hospital with milkshakes.

mOO
 
@FergusMcDuck or @OddOneOut,

Do either of you recall whether cadavour dogs were utilized in the truck search when it was seized? By 28 June, the truck had been searched at least twice (Kyron Horman: Timeline of events since boy's disappearance) so I'm of mind that had Kyron been killed or his body hidden in that truck (no matter how he was killed - if indeed that is his fate), then that would have been known by 28 June at the latest.

IMO, any competant and well done search by authorities of that truck (twice) would have included at least once with cadavder dogs as the failed sting attempt and custodial issues had already occured along with the flier with the truck before this point in time (ie: they had their suspect firmly in their sights by then): surely to heavens LE utilized this tool that was available to them and had they ound any iota of evidence that Kyron was killed in, or transported deceased, within that truck their suspect uno would have been arrested at that point in time because it is quite clearly acknowledge that she was the sole possessor of, and user of that truck that fateful day. If LE did not use cadaver dogs in their search of the truck, I am disheartened and discouraged at their lack of forethought and investigative measures used (not used??) in this instance.

I guess the answer to that question either rules out certain scenarios (killed in truck/deceased and transported in truck) or not. I, for one, hope LE was competant enough to use the cadaver dogs as their suspicions were clear by this point and, IMO, they did.
 
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