Kyron's doctors appointment

[STEADFAST]

I don't know, Steadfast. It just occurred to me that if the teacher and/or school was so sure Terri had taken him for a doctor's appt, that it was awfully strange for LE to sink all that money and effort into searching the school and grounds. It tells me the teacher/school were unable to convince MCSO, the FBI, and all those other 20 agencies that Terri had taken Kyron out of the school. It's a curious thing, and it's too late, and I'm too tired to think of what it may mean.

I just thought I'd toss it out there so I wouldn't be the only one to fall asleep tonight noodling about it.

Well, I would assume with the stepmother saying he did not have a drs appointment, they would need to search the school. After all, they didn't know yet that Terri would not be cooperative at all times. For all they knew at the time, she was honest.

Also, we have no information at all that Ms Porter or the school tried to "convince" anybody in LE "that Terri had taken Kyron out of the school." Where did that come from? Link?

Just goes to show that LE has not been tunnel-visioned at all. They explored all angles.

 

[liz b.]

We know that LE had no indication whatever that Terri removed Kyron from the school to go to a medical appointment, because they spent more than $350,000 and called in searchers from across both Oregon and Washington state to search, not medical offices in Portland, but a 2 square mile grid of the school and surrounding area.

As a bonus... they stated repeatedly that Kyron was last seen inside the school. But we'll put that aside, and concentrate on where they searched, backed up by all that $$$$$$$$.

The school. They searched the school. How incompetent would a PD, FBI, and all those agencies have to be to think there was credible evidence that a stepmother took her stepchild out of the school, and spend all that widely publicized (publicized by themselves, no less) time, effort, and money, on a search in and around the school, once, twice, three, and four times, when all the time they thought the stepmom had taken the child out of the school and to a doctor's office or elsewhere?

(I told ya you'd love it.)

Plain and simple. It rings true to me....

All JMO

 

[BeanE]

Also, we have no information at all that Ms Porter or the school tried to "convince" anybody in LE "that Terri had taken Kyron out of the school." Where did that come from? Link?

.
I thought it was widely reported that the teacher marked Kyron absent because Terri told her he had a medical appt. I guess I need to go read some more if that's not correct.

I assumed that LE would have talked to the teacher on June 4 and asked why she marked Kyron absent, and that would have been the point at which she would have said he had a doctor's appt, but you're right, maybe LE didn't ask her, or maybe she said there was some other reason she marked him absent.

I also assumed that medical appt was out of the school, but I suppose you're right, there could be a doctor's office inside the school, and my assumption is wrong.

So, my assumptions being unreasonable or invalid would account for the inability of the teacher/school to convince LE that Terri had taken Kyron out of the school.

 

[STEADFAST]

Wow. I guess I read wrong. I thought it was widely reported that the teacher marked Kyron absent because Terri told her he had a medical appt. I guess I need to go read some more if that's not correct.

I assumed that LE would have talked to the teacher on June 4 and asked why she marked Kyron absent, and that would have been the point at which she would have said he had a doctor's appt, but you're right, maybe LE didn't ask her, or maybe she said there was some other reason she marked him absent.

I also assumed that medical appt was out of the school, but I suppose you're right, there could be a doctor's office inside the school, and my assumption is wrong.

So, my assumptions being unreasonable or invalid would account for the inability of the teacher/school to convince LE that Terri had taken Kyron out of the school.

I think we all agree that Kyron was marked absent (after all, he was absent) and that, at the time, Ms Porter was most likely under the impression that Kyron was taken out of school by his mother for a drs appt or some other reason (We do not know what Ms Porter says about that morning and what Terri said to her.)

However, we have no information that when Kyron was found to be missing, that anyone tried to convince LE that Terri had taken him. Ms Porter may have said she had assumed Terri took him (Please remember, even Terri says the teacher thought she took Kyron out for an appointment.)

But that sure wouldn't keep LE from searching the school and grounds when the stepmother claimed she had never said she was taking him at all.

 

[BeanE]

Your understanding of the meaning of the word convince and mine differs.

If it's even simply that LE asks, "Why did you mark him absent", and the teacher responds, "Because his SM said she was taking him to the dr.", and LE decides, looking at all the info they have, that the child is likely in or around the school, then the teacher did not convince LE that the SM took the child from the school.

That is the sense in which I used the word convince.

 

[STEADFAST]

Your understanding of the meaning of the word convince and mine differs.

If it's even simply that LE asks, "Why did you mark him absent", and the teacher responds, "Because his SM said she was taking him to the dr.", and LE decides, looking at all the info they have, that the child is likely in or around the school, then the teacher did not convince LE that the SM took the child from the school.

That is the sense in which I used the word convince.

I don't think we know that she marked him absent because she thought he was at a drs appointment. But, putting that aside, I agree that Ms Porter did not convince LE that Terri took Kyron from the school. I think all those hundreds of interviews, their questioning of Terri, and Terri's computer and cell records are what convinced them she took him out of the school.

 

[Mylou]

This whole thing about the doctors appointment, and Kyron having strange symtoms prior, make me wonder if somebody didn't want Kyron to see a doctor? The confusion at the school over an appointment, Kyron's symptoms, I find them both interesting.

 

[goatman]

to add to the "what did the teacher mark" confusion...

what about the TP interview?

Gaw I need to find that.

 

[SmoothOperator]

If the school had started phoning around at 10am...and Kyron had been gone since about 8:45 or so...I am not at all sure it would have made much difference in what his actual and current fate is...he was probably already on his way to wherever he may be, or if not alive, probably was already not alive by 10AM.

Now a camera at every door...that at least would have shown when and with whom he left...if not saved him.

I understand what is being said that if this "policy" that had been in place and the phone call made after rollcall at 10 does not ensure it would save Kyron[esp. if the death occurred immediately after leaving school grounds or the perp may have still had Kyron alive at that 10am point in time] we quite possibly may never know the exact time...... however with that said it certainly and quite definitely would have given a quick start to hunting down Ky and the perp rather than the sad reality of having 6+ hours ahead of LE being on their trail...

Huge difference it couldve made..

 

[SmoothOperator]

I don't think we know that she marked him absent because she thought he was at a drs appointment. But, putting that aside, I agree that Ms Porter did not convince LE that Terri took Kyron from the school. I think all those hundreds of interviews, their questioning of Terri, and Terri's computer and cell records are what convinced them she took him out of the school.

I agree and I do not believe that LE was ever convinced that Terri did NOT take Kyron from the school..And I do not believe anyones intention was to get LE to believe this as fact[fact being that Terri took Kyron from the school] rather I believe that when interviewed and/or spoken to by LE that they[K.Porter for instance]told LE what little that she knew.. [and no one knows for sure what it was that she told] but iF Terri's email on June 5th has any validity K. Porter simply told LE what she was told that morning[of the 4th] during the minutes before the the bell rang at 845 that Terri had told her that she was taking Kyron and baby K to a dr appt[per Terri, in her own words]..

So, Porter had no "intentions" IMO to lead LE in any certain direction but rather just relayed to Le what she had just been told by Terri, in person just a few hours before..
Which common sense would lead anyone to then foucus on why Terri Horman would tell porter this, and until that issue of why could be cleared up then LE would have to focus on Terri to find out more info in order to do 1 of 2 things : EITHER clear Terri by there being a legimitate explanation that was explained to Le OR to proceed forward with Terri as a good possibility of having been the one that Kyron indeed left Skyline with[and I
believe it goes without having to be explained that once evidence pointing firmly in that direction of why they would continue to focus on her]

And lastly back to my opening sentence of this post that I don't think LE was convinced that Terri was NOT the one that Kyron left the school with[thats pretty obvious too].. Because LE following good investigative procedures and choosing to run parallel investigations[and thats all detailed in another thread]with a SAR, which would include searching in and around Skyline and working their way out from there, and at the same time they were paralleling the SAR investigation with criminal investigation and IMO one of the main reasons for that criminal investigation having started so very early on is what K, Porter told investigators that she was told that very morning, by Terri herself in person...

Therefor LE searching in and around Skyline indicates nothing whatsoever that LE were not "convinced" that Kyron left with Terri that morning but rather ONLY INDICATES THAT LE WERE RUNNING A THOROUGH, COMPETENT INVESTIGATION, AND COVERING ALL BASES OF POSSIBILITIES...

WHAT WOULD HAVE SHOWN LE INCOMPETENCE IS IF THEY CHOSE NOT THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATE MORE THAN ONE POSSIBILITY[i.e. a SAR and criminal investigation both paralleling each other]

 

[LillyRush]

It's always been interesting to me that the school spokesperson never made reference to the doctor's appointment. Also, that he used the word "thought" in reference to two teachers who made the assumption that TMH and Kyron had left together.

"Portland Public Schools spokesman Matt Shelby said two teachers saw Kyron with his mother and thought the two left school together. He said it was not uncommon for parents to pick up kids this way, so no suspicions were raised."
http://www.king5.com/news/local/NW-Portland-second-grader-still-missing-Saturday-95689114.html

 

[SmoothOperator]

It's been discussed a lot in the thread about the school's responsibility that the school has 2 related policies which, if there was an appointment, should have produced 2 signed pieces of paper by an adult responsible for Kyron. One would be a signed note in advance that Kyron would be leaving prior to the regular dismissal time. The paperwork for the doctor may have sufficed if it had the date of the medical appointment on it. The second is that students leaving prior to the regular dismissal time have to be checked out at the office, and that process includes the responsible adult signing the child out.

So, if there was a medical appointment on June 4, there should be two signed pieces of paper for Kyron for that date. No idea where they are. I'd also like to see that paperwork, if it was indeed given to the teacher, to see if there was a date, and if so, what that date was.

It's really a no-brainer. If there was a medical appointment on June 4, there should be two signed pieces of paper, per school policy.

Above BBM.. I know you keep all those links in your head.. lol. Would u mind providing the link to the BBM portion in specific the school policy stating the 2 separate pieces of paper that were required...


And as far as this below policy that you speak of. There would be "no checking Kyron out" in the office because Kyron was never "marked present" during school hours therefor he would not have been checked out if he was never present during school hours to be checked out from..

The second is that students leaving prior to the regular dismissal time have to be checked out at the office, and that process includes the responsible adult signing the child out.

Terri and Kyron went prior to the school day beginning to tour thru the projects, take pix of his, etc. Because Terri told Porter that Kyron and baby k would be going to a dr. appt and Kyron was not present at roll call, therefor marked as absent[again because Terri told Porter she was taking Kyron to dr]therefor there would have been no school hours involved that Kyron was present during therefor there would be no procedure for "checking him out"..

This exact scenario occurred with myself and my son involved. He had a history project that was on display[a class project worked on all the class, then was displayed for any parents and other students of the school could come :and view the display in the 45 mins leading up to the first bell rung to start the school day[school starts at 7:45 and students and parents were allowed from 7:00am{when school doors opened}-7:45 when first bell rang signaling the official start of the school day]

We had our annual "Walt Disney Trip" planned for this week and were actually flying out at 10:00am. So, we were at the school at 7:00am when doors opened and parents/students allowed to go view the project and my son and both left the school together at the time that the official school day was beginning[7:45]. Therefor I did not have to do the procedure of going to the school office and "checking my son" out because he was not present for roll call,counted as absent, and therefor there was nothing to "check him out from"[whereas if he had been present in his class, marked present and then left the school that procedure of "checking out" of course would be mandantory in that case]..
I was explained this by the administrative office as it was a new school for us last year and I stopped by on our way out just to make sure that there was no procedure or policy that I was unaware of..

That is from a personal experience that is giving an actual account of the same circumstances[as far as check out procedure not an option when the child is never technically present].

I have one other bit of info that is backing up what to many is a "no-brainer" of why this procedure would NOT BE DONE under the circumstances explained above..

My mom has taught elementary school for 31 years[highly admired and an entire career of awards nationwide for her contributions, dedication to children, as well as known for being one of the last of a dying breed- a teacher whose life is totally and completely dedicated to her huge responsibility of teaching the children whom are our futures... And for the past 5 years to the present she is serving on the School Board of Education as a highly respected enforcer of the school policies[the policies that are in place to protect or children, the students of the schools in the entire district[largest county in our state]..

I say all of the above for the reason that if anyone would be qualified to give an answer or highly educated and informed opinion[however you choose to see it]....
less than 24 hours ago I had this exact subject as a conversation with her and we spoke about this specific aspect of would it be a procedure that would be followed[checking out of the child from the school office if the child and parent were present prior to the official school day and the student was not present in his/her classroom for rollcall therefor being marked as absent]
Her reply to my questioning of this was.. "Obviously the answer is no. You would NOT check a child out from a "school day" when a child was never marked as having been present. There would be no "present" attendance record for the child for the school day in question therefor there would be no procedure to "check out" the child from being present for the school days attendance record for that day." ..

And just to add one quick tidbit to the above. Not only would there be no "present" attendance record to check the child out from but to go a step further for any who may question that he was seen around the school nearing the official start to the school day so shouldn't someone have thought thst suspicious and made sure to check out why he was not present after having been seen there during the times the projects were looked[again which was pre-officfial school hours] and the answere is no you would not question it when the parent/guardian had told you just minutes before rollcall that she would be taking that child to a dr. appt.

Sorry so long but thought I would thoroughly explain the reason the procedure of checking out would not be relevant because it would not be mandated.

But would still like to see the Skyline policy[the first part referenced and BBM in the above post]
A link to this specific information stating those policies quoted in the above post[BBM] would be appreciated.

 

[tragco]

Could this whole case come down to a matter of she said/she said?

Finster said Horman had told Kyron's teacher the day before that she was taking the boy to the doctor on Friday, June 11, and gave the teacher paperwork to fill out related to the appointment.

Finster said that when Kyron didn't show up at the bus the afternoon of June 4, Horman talked to the teacher who said she thought that Horman had taken Kyron to the doctor that day.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/friend_says_terry_moulton_horm.html


You know, by now for sure LE knows whether or not there was a doctor's appointment on the 11th of June. So, let's say there was and that it had been made prior to June 4th. The next question is WAS there a piece of paper called an absentee form ever filled out and presented to Kyron's teacher? Isn't it interesting that this question has never been answered yet?

Now, if TH is telling the truth, then it boils down to whether or not a simple absentee form for Kyron for the 11th existed or not, and whether or not TH gave it to Ms. Porter the morning of the 3rd or 4th. Correct?

Because if TH had done that, then Ms. P would have not marked Kyron absent on the 4th, because she had a piece of paper saying it was the 11th. However, if Ms. Porter never received the piece of paper, Kyron would have been marked absent, but a call would/or should have gone out to the home, no matter what she may have heard. Without that piece of paper for an excused absence, a call would have been made. Correct?

So it comes down to one of two things, either Ms. Porter never received the document and TH lied about it, and Ms. Porter should have reported Kyron absent without permission,

OR, Ms. P did receive the document, thought it was for that day (for whatever reason, saw the word Friday, didn't check the date, whatever, and shoved it in her pocket and due to the hectic day just didn't bother looking at it a second time. Now, it's afternoon, and Kyron goes missing.

Ms. Porter, according to the above is confronted with TH (and probably KH) TH tells the teacher (according to the above statement) "I gave you the absentee note for the 11th, not the 4th, why did you mark my son absent? Don't you think Ms. P would produce the note and that would be the end of that? Unless, unless, Ms. P when contacted by the school secretary (I'm assuming that's who'd initally contacted her about Kyron missing) then, looked at the note for the 11th, realized she'd made the mistake of marking Kyron absent on the wrong day, and to cover her butt and her school district's butt, she tossed the note and said "you never gave me any note for any day, what are you talking about?" ( Wouldn't we all have liked to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation?)

Does this whole issue of who is responsible for Kyron's disappearance boil down to a piece of paper?

Does anyone know if those absentee forms are printed on a duplicate type paper?

I was given forms by the Doctor once to be filled out by the teacher. They were questions about his behavior and rating him on a 1 to 5 scale and such. There was no date on these forms for the appointment, but obviously I had to fill them out in advance of the Doctor's appointment. So I am not sure it was really an absentee kind of form or had a specific date if it was related to behavior that teachers noticed.

When I did take my child to the doctor, I had to inform them in the morning when the appointment was, and then after the appointment give an absentee form i.e. dr's excuse. I may be misreading your questions, but anyway that was my experience. Nothing in the forms saying when the appointment was.

 

[debs]

Could this whole case come down to a matter of she said/she said?

Finster said Horman had told Kyron's teacher the day before that she was taking the boy to the doctor on Friday, June 11, and gave the teacher paperwork to fill out related to the appointment.

Finster said that when Kyron didn't show up at the bus the afternoon of June 4, Horman talked to the teacher who said she thought that Horman had taken Kyron to the doctor that day.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/friend_says_terry_moulton_horm.html


You know, by now for sure LE knows whether or not there was a doctor's appointment on the 11th of June. So, let's say there was and that it had been made prior to June 4th. The next question is WAS there a piece of paper called an absentee form ever filled out and presented to Kyron's teacher? Isn't it interesting that this question has never been answered yet?

Now, if TH is telling the truth, then it boils down to whether or not a simple absentee form for Kyron for the 11th existed or not, and whether or not TH gave it to Ms. Porter the morning of the 3rd or 4th. Correct?

Because if TH had done that, then Ms. P would have not marked Kyron absent on the 4th, because she had a piece of paper saying it was the 11th. However, if Ms. Porter never received the piece of paper, Kyron would have been marked absent, but a call would/or should have gone out to the home, no matter what she may have heard. Without that piece of paper for an excused absence, a call would have been made. Correct?

So it comes down to one of two things, either Ms. Porter never received the document and TH lied about it, and Ms. Porter should have reported Kyron absent without permission,

OR, Ms. P did receive the document, thought it was for that day (for whatever reason, saw the word Friday, didn't check the date, whatever, and shoved it in her pocket and due to the hectic day just didn't bother looking at it a second time. Now, it's afternoon, and Kyron goes missing.

Ms. Porter, according to the above is confronted with TH (and probably KH) TH tells the teacher (according to the above statement) "I gave you the absentee note for the 11th, not the 4th, why did you mark my son absent? Don't you think Ms. P would produce the note and that would be the end of that? Unless, unless, Ms. P when contacted by the school secretary (I'm assuming that's who'd initally contacted her about Kyron missing) then, looked at the note for the 11th, realized she'd made the mistake of marking Kyron absent on the wrong day, and to cover her butt and her school district's butt, she tossed the note and said "you never gave me any note for any day, what are you talking about?" ( Wouldn't we all have liked to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation?)

Does this whole issue of who is responsible for Kyron's disappearance boil down to a piece of paper?

Does anyone know if those absentee forms are printed on a duplicate type paper?

This. Absodagnabbitloutely. Given what Lily pointed out from the school spokespersons statement that the teacher THOUGHT kyron left with terri says to me she just made an assumption and a very wrong one.

 

[websurfer]

So?
Did she take BABYK to the dr or not?
IF she did that would be the only true thing she said.
If not well?
Obviously she had other plans.
Either way...
taking the baby sister or both would still mean he should have[and was]with her last.
STEPMOM
had evil plans from the beginning, but unfotunately, looks like even
knowing this, little progress has been made.
It would be very good if Kyron would come home soon...
always hoping that will still occur...fingers crossed

Has the Dr. verified all this appointment talk and all?

 

[SurfieTX]

It's very likely that the "paperwork" for the appointment was printed by Terri herself. I've done that before for one of my daughter's appointments. The doctor's office sent me the forms as an attachment in an email. It was a generic form, if you will, with no patient name, no appointment date, etc. - simply the questions that needed to be answered.

This saves the office on printing and paper costs, not to mention saving the patient's time in the waiting room prior to the appt. having to fill out reams of new patient this' and that's.

Therefore, it is very likely that the teacher's forms didn't reflect any appt. date or time.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

It's always been interesting to me that the school spokesperson never made reference to the doctor's appointment. Also, that he used the word "thought" in reference to two teachers who made the assumption that TMH and Kyron had left together.

"Portland Public Schools spokesman Matt Shelby said two teachers saw Kyron with his mother and thought the two left school together. He said it was not uncommon for parents to pick up kids this way, so no suspicions were raised."
http://www.king5.com/news/local/NW-Portland-second-grader-still-missing-Saturday-95689114.html

bbm...

nice post lily. very thought provoking.

we don't know the circumstances of how these two teachers came to think kyron left with terri.

we don't know how much time passed between these two events - seeing kyron and then thinking he left with terri.

did the two independently come to this same conclusion without discussing their thoughts with anyone else?
or did the two come to this conclusion by consensus after discussing discussing it with each other?
or did the two discuss it with other people and not each other - then come to this conclusion?

we don't know the identity of these two teachers.

we do know tp's says that when kyron's group leader told miss porter kyron was missing - miss porter said kyron probably went to the bathroom or to get a drink.

 

[Billylee]

Prior to his June 4 disappearance, Kyron Horman’s stepmother, Terri Horman, informed his teacher he had a doctor’s appointment on Friday, the sources said, and it was why there was no expectation Kyron would be in class after the science fair. Once class began at 10 a.m., his teacher marked him absent.

According to sources, investigators believe Terri Horman was vague about which Friday she was referring to when she gave notice to the school Kyron would be gone and only after he was missing did she clarify that the doctor’s appointment was on June 11, the Friday after the science fair.

Portland Public Schools spokesperson Matt Shelby told KATU News, "Two teachers were the last school staff to see Kyron at Skyline. His own teacher and another teacher saw him inside the school with his stepmother, and there didn't appear to be anything out of the ordinary.”


Kim Holm’s son, Kurtis, who Terri Horman photographed with his science project around the time she took a picture of Kyron that morning, said her son knew about the appointment too.

“And the teacher said, ‘I thought he left with his mom,’ because they thought they had a doctor appointment,” Holm said. “And then at lunchtime, Kurtis ate lunch with him every day, he wasn’t there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish, saying he didn’t get off the bus, I guess. And Kurtis said, ‘Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day Mom.’”

http://www.katu.com/news/local/98981009.html




I have to wonder what Ms. P thought at the end of the day, when Kyron's backpack and jacket were still hanging there. It was a very cool and rain day IIRC.

 

[PaulaF513]

Frankly, I'm more interested in the male chaperone that someone obviously told TH about. I wonder if that has been completely checked out and the person identified and cleared.

BeanE...Your critical thinking has me in awe.

 

[gwenabob]

Frankly, I'm more interested in the male chaperone that someone obviously told TH about. I wonder if that has been completely checked out and the person identified and cleared.

BeanE...Your critical thinking has me in awe.

The only person who has said anything about a male chaperone is Terri. For all we know, she made that up after the fact. It was in the emails she sent a few days after Kyron disappeared. There has been no corroborating evidence Kyron was seen with a "male chaperone."