Learn Something New Every Day

[close_enough]

Is that a picture of you?

no, that's not me...it's Tony Stewart, my favorite race car driver (NASCAR)

 

[close_enough]

close_enough,

Possibly to change her appearance either as part of the post homicide staging, or to coverup something.

Its not simply that its sectioned off but that its done in an inconsistent manner.

Now you can offer many reasons for this, e.g. panic, moving fast, but my current favorite is ignorance.

Imagine JonBenet lying on her side dead, with her hands raised, someone has decided to either redress her or at least restyle her hair.

It would be interesting to know just how JonBenet's hair was done for the White's party, since from that we could infer a motive for the sectioning.

I'll speculate that the same person who redressed her in her size-12 underwear, also restyled/sectioned her hair as there were hair-ties strewn on either JonBenet's bedroom or bathroom floor.

Since there may have been more than one staging episode, personally I think there were three.

But it might help conceptually to think of her as being dressed up in the first staging, and dressed down in the 3rd staging, since in the 3rd staging she was to be redressed in the barbie-gown. The 2nd staging is opaque, but possibly it encompassed her assault with the paintbrush and the addition of the ligature.

I'm assuming its all not an R doing silly things so it cannot be attributed to them?



.

aahhhh, ok gotcha.....interesting..

thanks!

 

[close_enough]

I agree... I'm not saying she's guilty or not for I really don't know, but that picture speaks volumes to me and she looks like she is FAKING her grief.. POSING for the camera.. :twocents:

i agree....i can barely stand to look at that picture, myself....kinda turns my stomach..

 

[close_enough]

Been thinking about the sectioned hair, and the why of it all. I sit each week with my fav hairdresser. Lots of ladies AND men getting their hair colored.

Sectioning is a major portion of doing the touchups on LONGER hair.

The odor that prevailed in JonBenet's bathroom, that none of the BPD could identify, might have been something that was prepped to be used on JonBenets hair, and that JonBenet rebelled against. WE donut know with certainty of course.

Wonder IF it might have been spilled on the red shirt that was wet and wadded up, and spot washed after a tiff and spill, everyone tired after a busy Christmas.

.

you're right about that...hmm, longer hair would need some kind of clip/band to section off, unlike short hair that can be parted & tossed on the head, right?...the only times i've ever colored my hair, it was short..

 

[close_enough]

Camper,

Could be as you describe, it mostly fits the evidence, also her hair-ties were on the floor, so something was taking place.


.

exactly.....but that wouldn't seem staged, would it?..(something happening while she was getting a "touch up")...i'm thinking your thought of it being ignorance, might be right..

 

[close_enough]

"The postmortem swelling etc, is open to debate, but it probably occurred."

It's not just that. Strangling with a cord is an odd thing. Sometimes, if it's done a certain way, it's possible that a cord will not slacken when pressure is let off. Plus, a child's neck skin is fairly pliable, what with the baby fat protruding over the cord. I'm no expert, but I'll go with that until something better shows up.

you're right on both comments...i agree

 

[Goody]

a quick legal lesson...

this all has to do with hearsay and the confrontation clause. hearsay refers to statements made outside of the courtroom that are sought to be used in the courtroom. (e.g., patsy's taped interviews are a good example if there was ever a trial) these are generally not admissible, but there are many exceptions.

one exception is called "dying declarations." if someone says something immediately preceding his or her imminent death, it meets this exception. this is most commonly used if someone is shot and says who shot him to a police officer and then dies on the way to the hospital. it is not applicable to statements made by someone who is terminally ill and says something months before their death, even though that death is imminent.

as to the confrontation clause, that is the 6th amendment of the constitution, which gives an accused the right to confront his/her witnesses. therefore, even if a statement is admissible, falling under a hearsay exception, it still might run afoul of the 6th amendment. the case law here is very confusing, and, in fact, a case just came out a few weeks ago clarifying some of the confusion. but that aside, dying declarations are one exception to the hearsay rule which the court has found does not create a confrontation clause problem.

there's obviously a lot more to this, but in a nutshell, patsy's statements will probably not be admissible in any trial, save for certain statements in certain instances. had she made a deathbed confession, it would be admissible.

If she made a deathbed confession, there wouldn't be a trial for it to be admissable in. But maybe they would close the case.

Also, I am reading nancy grace right now and she says it is rare for courts to admit dying declarations unless the state can find a way to argue it in successfully.

 

[close_enough]

IOW he gives the basic information to the final diagnosis. Ligature just means that there was something tied around her neck that was used to strangle her to death with.

yeah, that & "associated with craniocerebral trauma"...

interesting pics of the garrotte..sent a shiver up my spine..

 

[Camper]

Tears came to my eyes and choked up when I saw the pictures of this poor baby again. Yes it does certainly look like a cigarette burn, coulda been done with a wood burning tool, betcha one could have been found in the basement, ya think?

Maybe they substituted wood whittling for wood burning tool, not so messy, ya think?

IF a bloodhound trained to track a scent, had been gotten ASAP, betcha the DNA and scent of the person who manufactured the garotte/EA/AEA device would have been enough for the dog to zero in on someone, but but Burke would have been hustled away by then.

I dare say the DNA of the person who manufactured the G/E/A device is still within that knot!

IF DNA is to be found within that knot, given that the Ramseys said they had NO knowledge of the garrot/EA/AEA device, OR no knowledge of the ROPE itself, and vague about the paint brush handle as well, AND IF it matches to a Ramsey should be enough to bring the case to trial, MOO!!!!!!!

The scent I was told by a man who trains bloodhounds would be long gone after a relatively short amount of time, UNLESS it had been placed in an airtight container, rather than a brown paper evidence bag.

I have forgotten the country who has made great advances in SAVING/PRESERVING scents from crime scenes, that ARE accepted in court as evidence.

Anyone remember what I posted so many many years ago about this world shaking high tech technique?

Yep I like my hair rebellion thought. Rage and maybe this tiny girl could have run to the basement to escape, hence dust on the feet AND the scream that was not heard by the R's, but heard by the neighbor then the neighbor decided she had NOT heard a scream, BUT her hubby heard metal scraping on metal AFTER she woke him to tell him about 'the' scream, huh, duh, color me dumb with a brown crayon.

.

 

[close_enough]

If she made a deathbed confession, there wouldn't be a trial for it to be admissable in. But maybe they would close the case.

Also, I am reading nancy grace right now and she says it is rare for courts to admit dying declarations unless the state can find a way to argue it in successfully.

true..i hadn't thought of that..maybe they would....would be nice to think the skull/brain damage knocked her out & she didn't die terrified.....course someone being angry enough to slam your head is terrifying enough, but i hope she died from that quickly, instead of strangulation..poor baby

 

[Camper]

IF JAR DNA were to be found within the KNOT of the device, just HOW would this influence our thoughts on what happened Christmas night?

I wrote my thought and then decided not to post it.

.

 

[close_enough]

Tears came to my eyes and choked up when I saw the pictures of this poor baby again. Yes it does certainly look like a cigarette burn, coulda been done with a wood burning tool, betcha one could have been found in the basement, ya think?

Maybe they substituted wood whittling for wood burning tool, not so messy, ya think?

IF a bloodhound trained to track a scent, had been gotten ASAP, betcha the DNA and scent of the person who manufactured the garotte/EA/AEA device would have been enough for the dog to zero in on someone, but but Burke would have been hustled away by then.

I dare say the DNA of the person who manufactured the G/E/A device is still within that knot!

IF DNA is to be found within that knot, given that the Ramseys said they had NO knowledge of the garrot/EA/AEA device, OR no knowledge of the ROPE itself, and vague about the paint brush handle as well, AND IF it matches to a Ramsey should be enough to bring the case to trial, MOO!!!!!!!

The scent I was told by a man who trains bloodhounds would be long gone after a relatively short amount of time, UNLESS it had been placed in an airtight container, rather than a brown paper evidence bag.

I have forgotten the country who has made great advances in SAVING/PRESERVING scents from crime scenes, that ARE accepted in court as evidence.

Anyone remember what I posted so many many years ago about this world shaking high tech technique?

Yep I like my hair rebellion thought. Rage and maybe this tiny girl could have run to the basement to escape, hence dust on the feet AND the scream that was not heard by the R's, but heard by the neighbor then the neighbor decided she had NOT heard a scream, BUT her hubby heard metal scraping on metal AFTER she woke him to tell him about 'the' scream, huh, duh, color me dumb with a brown crayon.

.

i didn't know about the "metal scraping on metal" ..what on earth would that be?

the mark on her neck doesn't make me think of a cigarette burn..something about it looks almost perfect in a way...i know a cig burn will be extremely red, then blister...heck i don't know how an 'intentional' burn would look, after death or otherwise though...

 

[close_enough]

IF JAR DNA were to be found within the KNOT of the device, just HOW would this influence our thoughts on what happened Christmas night?

I wrote my thought and then decided not to post it.

.

i don't know, but that would blow my mind...i know it would influence my thoughts, but i'd just be confused....what's your thought??

 

[UKGuy]

While I don't recall where the wording "garrotte" came from in this case it's a misnomer. The "garrotte" is not a real garrotte at all.
If, when you say manual strangulation, you mean someone pulled the cord with their hands instead of with the broken wooden paintbrush handle, I agree with you. I tried to make the same type of knot with a handle like the one we've seen and looped it around a pipe pole (as a substitute for a neck) and it would not slide at all. To tighten it I had to twist it around and around.
Here is what a true garrotte looked like and how it was used.
The ones that are used in the military training have a knot on each side and a loop on each end and they are used in manual strangulation according to the ones I found on the net.

Seeker,
If am in error wrt how she was asphyxiated, then I will happily revise my account.

Now the garrote which is not a misnomer, but follows from whats known as Pars pro toto e.g. Latin for synecdoche, or "(taking) a part for the whole".

The ligature or cord on its own is simply a ligature, Thugee style, the addition of a wooden rod, otherwise known as a Garrote with various spellings, turns it into what in contemporary understanding is a Garrote.

So your first picture is a historical refinement of the Garrote for state use.

And your second picture may or may not show the use of a Garrote but does appear to show the manner in which Luca Brasi was garrotted in the Godfather movie.

The confabulation of garotte/EA/AEA and strangulation in tandem with the Pars pro toto garrote is what has led to misnomers.

By manually strangled I mean the use of hands principally, I suggest this to account for the injuries and abrasions on the lower front of her neck.

Its possible both forms of strangulation occurred?

So the addition of the broken paintbrush handle, which looks broken at either end to me, is what turns the ligature into a Garrote.

JonBenet's hair is also embedded into the knotting surrounding the paintbrush handle, and her necklace is entangled under the ligature or cord, this precludes it being used as an EA/AEA device!

A fuller historical account of Garrote is given here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote


.

 

[rashomon]

Hi Rash,
What picture are you speaking of? Dying to know. Solace

Solace, it's the picture which poster RiverRat has in his/her signature on ForumsForJustice: where Patsy is kneeling beside JonBenet's grave. Not only does the photo look totally theatrical, but when I looked at Patsy's face with a magnifying glass, she looks far more aggressive than grieving to me, with her teeth showing almost like a snarling dog's.
And who knows if a part of Patsy didn't in fact blame JonBenet for having 'ruined' her life, having acted in a way which drove Patsy to kill her.

 

[Camper]

i don't know, but that would blow my mind...i know it would influence my thoughts, but i'd just be confused....what's your thought??

--->>>You all know that I could go into great detail, but, simply HOW would everything change IF the DNA belonged to 'a' Ramsey that was in the home Christmas night OR who was not in the home Christmas night?

.

 

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by rashomon
Imo it is not that easy. This was only an 'accident' insofar as Patsy (I think it was her) did not mean to kill JonBenet, but the head blow to JB's head was certainly not delivered accidentally, but with full intention by someone being in an uncontrollable rage.

Could you please clarify what you mean? Are you saying that Patsy meant to harm JB, but not kill her? That she didn't mean to crack her skull? And do you subscribe to ST theory that Patsy cracked JB's skull then took her down to the basement where she applied the cord and proceeded to strangle her?

The headblow, while a mortal wound, would have taken time to cause her to die. Her pulse would have still been there and she would have still been breathing.

There was only 7-8cc's of blood/hemorage found under her scalp with no swelling of the brain at all. This, to me, indicates that the blow to the skull must have happened after the ligature was applied and cut off the main flow of blood to the brain.

IOW ST theory is flawed in the regard that the time it would have taken to carry JB's body downstairs and then apply the ligature would have resulted in much more blood being found than a mere 7-8cc's.

I don't think that Patsy meant to harm JonBenet, but that this was one of these tragic moments where a person got so carried away in a total rage that she did not realize that irreparable damage would be done.

Manual strangulation could have come first, with Patsy yanking JB against a hard object immediately afterwards.
After realizing what she had done, it was like cold water for Patsy.

The ransom note, the sexual assault scene and the ligature wrapped around the paintbrush handle was staging. For the knot tied around JonBenet's neck obviously was a simple double knot (see Dr. Meyer's autopsy report).
Such a knot would be a fixed knot, so there is no need to wrap the cord multiple loops around a handle to pull the knot tight, because such a knot is aready tight.
I believe Patsy tied one knot around JB's neck, getting it tight by pulling at both ends of the ligature (like with the knot when you start tying a shoelace, before you do the bows), and then made another knot on top. Then she amateurishly looped the longer end of the cord many times around the broken handle to create the impression of a bizarre crime.

 

[Seeker]

Tears came to my eyes and choked up when I saw the pictures of this poor baby again. Yes it does certainly look like a cigarette burn, coulda been done with a wood burning tool, betcha one could have been found in the basement, ya think?

It does look like a burn, even though Meyer said it was an abrasion. I'm sure he would be able to tell the difference, but it still doesn't make sense to have it be a scrape in that perfect of a pattern to me.

Now if it was a burn I would guess someone used the tip of a hot glue gun sans the glue. Didn't Patsy do crafts and help the kids with theirs?

UKGuy, I disagree that someone used their hands around her throat to strangle her to death. If they had the marks would have been larger and the ligature would not have left the mark like it did. She was alive when this cord was put on her and she was strangled to death with it. Not one single coroner/pathologist debated this issue when presented with the information and photo's like they did with other aspects (like which came first, the headblow or the strangulation).
I found this which may be of some assistance in noting the differences between manual and ligature strangultion.
It's even from someone on your side of the pond... Please note that the ligature strangulation signs are consistant with the autopsy report and not the manual signs. Disection of her neck discloses that she was strangled with the ligature vs hands.
http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/strangulation.htm
Signs of manual strangulation ...

disc-like finger-tip bruises (although it is unwise to over-interpret such bruises, as hands may be changed over during the course of the attack, making it difficult to distinguish between single handed or double handed attacks, and between left or right handed assaults etc)
abrasions
linear finger-nail scratches (from the assailant, or the victim when trying to remove the assailants hands from the neck)
often limited signs of suffocation as fingers are more likely to probe deeper neck structures and cause reflex cardiac arrest
sustained pressure may cause congestion and blueness of the tongue, pharynx and larynx
haemorrhage under the skin of the neck and bruising of the strap muscles (where suffocation is suspected, the neck is dissected after the great vessels of the thorax have been emptied, to enable the dissection to be carried out in a relatively bloodless field, so that post-mortem artefacts are not mis-interpreted)
damage to the larynx - particularly the superior horns of the thyroid cartilage, and the greater horns of the hyoid bone

Ligature Strangulation

Where a constricting band is tightened around the neck, there is usually gross congestion, cyanosis and petechiae in the face if the pressure is maintained for more than about 20 seconds.

The ligature mark is a vital part of the evidence, as it often reproduces the pattern and dimensions of the ligature itself. If the assailant has removed the ligature from the scene, and is subsequently arrested, possible ligatures found on the assailant or in his home etc can be compared with the mark on the victim's neck. Some modern techniques involving computer imaging are being developed to assist in this comparison process, in much the same way as pioneers in the field superimposed photographs of suspected victims over skulls of unidentified persons.

Ligatures that have been left on the neck after death, or which have caused sliding friction over the skin result in a brown-coloured dry leathery band, and there may be a red 'flare' of vital tissue reaction on either side of the ligature. The mark is usually horizontal, just above the laryngeal prominence ('Adam's apple'). It usually continues around the circumference of the neck, sometimes with a cross-over or knot. There will not be a rising peak indicating a suspension point, unlike in cases of hanging or suspension.

Ligature marks represent the nature of the ligature, ie. soft, fabric based ligatures may leave a diffuse mark, whilst wires or cords leave a deeper more defined mark.

External skin markings may include scratches from the struggling victim, and the internal injuries may include those seen in manual strangulation, but are often less obvious or developed.

Suicidal strangulation by ligature is less common, but there may be a ligature wound around the neck several times, involving complicated knots.

 

[rashomon]

The headblow, while a mortal wound, would have taken time to cause her to die. Her pulse would have still been there and she would have still been breathing.
There was only 7-8cc's of blood/hemorage found under her scalp with no swelling of the brain at all. This, to me, indicates that the blow to the skull must have happened after the ligature was applied and cut off the main flow of blood to the brain.

Not necessarily. Suppose the head bash immediately sent JonBenet into a deep coma where she was nearing death, with almost no pulse anymore - couldn't this have been the reason for only 7 to 8 ccs of blood being found under her scalp?

 

[sissi]

Camper...If JAR's dna was found on the cord, in an amount suggestive of his constructing the device, then I would suspect a Ramsey. Why? Not because I could believe that JAR did it, his alibi is solid, but because I would believe he SHOULD have come forward and told of his connection to that device. His only reason for not coming forward would be to protect a family member. If it was his, he would have made it clear that someone came into the house and used it in their commission of this crime.

Nice hypothetical...but nopey..nope..JAR is an honest guy, the cord was not his ..he would have "told"

oops..missed the second part..
If the cord was played with, by other children in the house, it would not change my thoughts at all, just another piece of handy material for the perp. Hmmm..or perhaps it would point to an older child, a teen that took it from a younger sibling..(I don't know where that came from..however it's possible)
uh oh..now may I ramble...OR it could have been a device that was confiscated by LHP when she hid the whittlin' knife....that would then..put LHP group in the suspect pool