LIfe as a fence sitter

[Albert18]

Can you rule out the Ramseys of involvement in the crime within one or more evidentiary categories? 1) Behavioral evidence (their behavior). Is the behavior of the Ramseys following the crime and to this day consistent with their non-involvement in the crime? 2) Physical evidence. Are the items used in the crime consistent with an occupant of the home having perpetrated it, or with an outsider who came into the home having done so? 3) Forensic evidence (the scientific testing of the physical evidence). Is the forensic evidence consistent with an occupant of the home having perpetrated the crime, or with an outsider having done so? 4) Circumstantial evidence. Is the circumstantial evidence (before, during, and after the crime) consistent with an occupant of the home perpetrating the crime, or with an outsider having done so?

Very well written summary, Tober.

One thing I often see is the argument that Ramsey behavior must be ignored. Nobody knows how they would act in such a situation so yes, their behavior was odd, but we must not judge them.

There was nothing odd or unusual about the Ramsey behavior at all. They behaved exactly as I would have in the same circumstances. You just have to define the circumstances.

I have argued the key to this case is John. John is the take charge guy. We can assume John knows whether or not there was an intruder that night and we know for a fact he took charge after the 911 call. So to know what John knows, just step back and watch him.

*He was wary of the police and public opinion.

*He shielded Patsy not Burke and not really himself.

*He acted like he was managing the problem, he wasn't part of the problem.

*He got a lawyer very quickly. IDI's say that is natural as everybody should and would do that. But that isn't what happened. He didn't get a lawyer for the family, he got individual lawyers for everybody and their dog. When was the last time his ex-wife even saw JonBenet.

*The crime scene was trashed. This behavior is defended by those who say in a crisis like that you need to be surrounded by friends who can comfort you. But after the trashing those same friends are considered to be dangerous to the Ramsey's. So what they may know and think is more dangerous then the comfort they can give?

*If the media doesn't report the story in a manner satifactory to the Ramsey's, they get a call from the Ramsey lawyers. It doesn't matter how the case is investigated, just how it is reported.

*I have to go! I have a bumper crop of tomatoes this year and I have to make tomato crab soup. The house is awash with the smell of simmering tomatoes. They are so ripe, so ripe.

 

[Jayelles]

Can you rule out the Ramseys of involvement in the crime within one or more evidentiary categories? 1) Behavioral evidence (their behavior). Is the behavior of the Ramseys following the crime and to this day consistent with their non-involvement in the crime? 2) Physical evidence. Are the items used in the crime consistent with an occupant of the home having perpetrated it, or with an outsider who came into the home having done so? 3) Forensic evidence (the scientific testing of the physical evidence). Is the forensic evidence consistent with an occupant of the home having perpetrated the crime, or with an outsider having done so? 4) Circumstantial evidence. Is the circumstantial evidence (before, during, and after the crime) consistent with an occupant of the home perpetrating the crime, or with an outsider having done so?

Hi Tber,

Sorry if I didn't make this clear - I don't rule them out at all. The only people I would rule out are those with a cast iron alibi. But as long as there are conflicting explanations for the evidence, I won't hand my hat on a particular theory or suspect.

 

[coloradokares]

I certainly agree with your assessment of John Ramsey. I also thought Susan Stine was the friend who helped with the "mistress" story. Maybe we have a "birds of a feather" situation with Susan and Patsy??? How in the world did Stine get away with impersonating not just a police officer but the Chief of Police?

According to your theory, do you think if the Ramseys didn't kill JonBenet they know who did? I can't see them protecting anyone but themselves or their family unless, perhaps, a family member and a friend were both involved, which means one of the Ramseys is still involved.

It seems Patsy and John, evenwithout attorney advice, were very adept at fielding tricky questions and Patsy was a great performer. I think one or both are involved and they resolved the issue in their minds by clinging to religion, or their notion of religion. I don't, however, see that any justice to JonBenet would have been served if, say, Patsy had been tried and convicted. Knowing her mother was in the pen would probably hurt JonBenet alot and let's face it, Patsy wasn't a vicious person.

With apologies to those who believe JonBenet was purposely bludgeoned to death by an Intruder, etc. I still believe kind and loving people can act out in a rage and do things they would necessarily do given the right set of circumstances.

A child died a horrible brutal death here yes I think prison time was appropriate. And I dont envision Jon Benet having compassion towards her murderers . I think it was a moot point for her once she entered heavens gate. She would be content to allow salvation or condemnation to rest with God. It would no longer matter to her as ultimately we all face judgement good or bad for the lives we led and judgement was never left to us to decide that is based on one thing alone. Each to their own on how they believe.:angel: :furious:

 

[BOESP]

A child died a horrible brutal death here yes I think prison time was appropriate. And I dont envision Jon Benet having compassion towards her murderers . I think it was a moot point for her once she entered heavens gate. She would be content to allow salvation or condemnation to rest with God. It would no longer matter to her as ultimately we all face judgement good or bad for the lives we led and judgement was never left to us to decide that is based on one thing alone. Each to their own on how they believe.:angel: :furious:

I think the killer no matter who it was should have been given fair and just treatment in the American judicial system. I'm just not sure how I can define "justice for JonBenet" when, if a parent did it, that parent going to the pen would equal justice for JonBenet. I think it would be justice for society but not for that poor little girl and if JonBenet was the kind little soul we are told she was, I doubt if she would want her brother subjected to the embarrassment of having a parent in the pen either. That's just how I see it. On the other hand, justice and the scales of equality should apply to all and not just those who can afford good attorneys.

 

[Albert18]

If Patsy would have told Alex Hunter the truth she would have had time to get her fur coat altered on the way home.

But there were two enemies, the law and public opinion.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

SMOKING GUN: something that serves as conclusive evidence or proof, especially of a crime.

There are many in this case:

1. Flashlight-The Ramsey’s own one just like it but couldn’t find it that morning. Consistent with the weapon that delivered the skull fracture.
2. Pineapple-Consistent right down to the rind to that found in the Ramsey’s home from a bowl on the kitchen counter. Last thing found in JB”s small intestine.
3. Prior Sexual Abuse- JB’s vaginal opening being twice the size of a child her age. The makeup, sex appeal, etc. Bed wetting. All consistent with a child her age being molested.
4. Red Fibers found on duct tape-consistent to Patsy’s fibers from her sweater. She admitted never stepping foot in that basement that evening or morning.
And the biggest Smoking gun IMO:

5. The Ransom note-Patsy Ramsey was the ONLY ONE that could not be eliminated as the writer. The Ramsey’s agreed with the experts, whoever killed their child, wrote the ransom note. The fact that Nedra said the note looked like Patsy’s writing was compelling.

Those 5 key pieces of evidence above that directly link the Ramsey’s to the crime. Therefore they all are Smoking Gun’s

The fact that JB was sexually abused the night she was murdered and Dr. Wyect’s findings were consistent with a child being sexually abused prior to the crime, points only to the family or someone close to them.

My bet is if the autopsy photos were shown to the public, there wouldn’t be a doubt about prior sexual abuse as stated in Thomas’ book.

The rope and tape are close seconds. If only Mc Guckins had itemized receipts, that would have hung Patsy Ramsey. But the fact that the price of the tape and rope purchased matched the amounts she spent, is pretty compelling IMO.

Honestly for me the proof lies in the photos taken of JB at the autopsy which were noted in Thomas’ book. The size of the vaginal opening being twice that of a child her age. Everything else seems consistent with a child her age being abused, the bed wetting, having to have others wipe her. Being disciplined behind closed doors. The makeup, sex appeal, etc. etc. etc.

Crime scenes are usually what they seem. This crime was staged and the only ones that needed to stage it were the Ramsey’s.

 

[coloradokares]

I think the killer no matter who it was should have been given fair and just treatment in the American judicial system. I'm just not sure how I can define "justice for JonBenet" when, if a parent did it, that parent going to the pen would equal justice for JonBenet. I think it would be justice for society but not for that poor little girl and if JonBenet was the kind little soul we are told she was, I doubt if she would want her brother subjected to the embarrassment of having a parent in the pen either. That's just how I see it. On the other hand, justice and the scales of equality should apply to all and not just those who can afford good attorneys.

Justice isnt based on that its based and rightly so on being a nation of laws, I cannot be based on murder is ok for some not for the others or every one that got under someones skin could just be done away with. Justice should be blind with the same consequences for all rich or poor.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

I agree.

Either way it was a horrible tragedy no matter how anyone looks at it. JB is gone. The real tragic story here is Burke Ramsey unless of course you are one who thinks Burke may have been the culprit. Hey where’s Blue Crab?

I could have bought that story had Burke’s voice had not been captured on the 911 tape asking what they (his mom and dad) found. I don’t agree with the statement however that the strike to JB’s skull would have knocked down a 300lb man or whatever it was. Burke could have easily have caused that skull fracture if he swung a bat or flashlight and hit her just right. But I think what blows that theory out of the water for me is that John Ramsey would have never of sent Burke out of that home without his supervision.

Either way, it all ended up very sad. The Ramsey’s had already lost the eldest daughter Beth in an auto accident, then JB to this (accident, cover-up), then Patsy died of Cancer. I also highly suspect she was Bipolar. Somewhere in all of that it’s my belief that JB was being molested. By whom we will never know.

One thing I do know for certain is John Ramsey has to live with his decisions.

His decision to call his pilot within 30 minutes of his daughter being found brutally murdered in his basement

His decision not to cooperate with police

His decision to take an independent lie detector test and not one administered by the BPD

His decision to profit off a website set up to catch the so called killer(s) of his daughter, just to shut it down after it was discovered no money was being spent on helping the investigation

His decision to move the family to Georgia and then to Michigan

His decision to use his millions to run for office instead of starting some sort of fund for sexually exploited children, like he exploited his.

AND LASTLY HIS DECISION NOT TO EXHUME THE BODY OF HIS DAUGHTER TO PROVE WHETHER A STUN GUN WAS USED IN THE COMMISSION OF THIS CRIME, AS ADVISED OF HIM TO DO SO BY LOU SMIT, ONE OF THE ONLY DETECTIVES AT THE TIME WHO BELIEVED IN THE INTRUDER THEROY.

No, I certainly would not want to be living as John Bennett Ramsey

 

[BOESP]

Justice isnt based on that its based and rightly so on being a nation of laws, I cannot be based on murder is ok for some not for the others or every one that got under someones sking could just be done away with. Justice should be blind with the same consequences for all rich or poor.

I agree. I thought that's what I said.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Let me add…

His decision to enter that basement to supposedly find an opened window, closed it, yet not report it until later.

His decision to leave the house for an hour without telling Linda Arndt where he was going

His decision to move the body of his dead child from the crime scene

His decision to avoid people like Marc Klass and hard nosed reporters to answer the real questions in regards to the murder of his child

His decision to ask Patsy’s sister to grab his golf clubs when retrieving things from the house so he could golf, even though he wasn’t allowed to leave Colorado in the dead of winter.


Yes, we all have decisions to make in life. Those decisions guide our future. What sort of future does John Bennett Ramsey have, and how could that future of been different had he cooperated with police so he and his family could have been fully exonerated from this crime, without having to live under the “Umbrella of Suspicion”? We will never know, but neither will John Ramsey.

 

[BOESP]

Comments below in blue:

I agree.

Either way it was a horrible tragedy no matter how anyone looks at it. JB is gone. The real tragic story here is Burke Ramsey unless of course you are one who thinks Burke may have been the culprit. Hey where’s Blue Crab?

I do feel sorry for Burke. I have a list of about four or five possible suspects, which includes some Ramsey family members. I really haven't excluded very many people because I haven't seen the evidence. I just know what's available to the public and that STRONGLY suggests to me Ramsey involvement at some level. I think Patsy is the most likely person, particularly since JonBenet's time of death fits the normal routine of Patsy arising and taking JonBenet for a nightly potty stop around midnight (per Patsy's statement).

I could have bought that story had Burke’s voice had not been captured on the 911 tape asking what they (his mom and dad) found. I don’t agree with the statement however that the strike to JB’s skull would have knocked down a 300lb man or whatever it was. Burke could have easily have caused that skull fracture if he swung a bat or flashlight and hit her just right. But I think what blows that theory out of the water for me is that John Ramsey would have never of sent Burke out of that home without his supervision.

The question(s) for me are why was he sent out? To protect Burke from seeing JonBenet's dead body? To keep Burke from answering questions that might incriminate one of the parents? Or to protect Burke if he were the assailant?

Either way, it all ended up very sad. The Ramsey’s had already lost the eldest daughter Beth in an auto accident, then JB to this (accident, cover-up), then Patsy died of Cancer. I also highly suspect she was Bipolar. Somewhere in all of that it’s my belief that JB was being molested. By whom we will never know.

She was molested by someone, that's for sure. The autopsy proves to me that her hymeneal opening was not that for a normal six-year-old child. Whether it was done for sexual gratification or corporal cleaning/punishment, I do not know. I do have faith in Steve Thomas's ability to gather evidence and make a theory from that evidence. As you say, we probably will never know.

One thing I do know for certain is John Ramsey has to live with his decisions.

His decision to call his pilot within 30 minutes of his daughter being found brutally murdered in his basement

His decision not to cooperate with police

His decision to take an independent lie detector test and not one administered by the BPD

His decision to profit off a website set up to catch the so called killer(s) of his daughter, just to shut it down after it was discovered no money was being spent on helping the investigation

His decision to move the family to Georgia and then to Michigan

His decision to use his millions to run for office instead of starting some sort of fund for sexually exploited children, like he exploited his.

AND LASTLY HIS DECISION NOT TO EXHUME THE BODY OF HIS DAUGHTER TO PROVE WHETHER A STUN GUN WAS USED IN THE COMMISSION OF THIS CRIME, AS ADVISED OF HIM TO DO SO BY LOU SMIT, ONE OF THE ONLY DETECTIVES AT THE TIME WHO BELIEVED IN THE INTRUDER THEROY.

No, I certainly would not want to be living as John Bennett Ramsey

I agree with your comments about the decisions. I don't know Colorado law but where I live it wouldn't matter what John Ramsey wanted. If detectives could prove to the DA's office there was a need, the DA's office would order it done. We don't take kindly to child molesters and child killers here so I'd speculate an exhumation would occur.

 

[rashomon]

And the biggest Smoking gun IMO:

5. The Ransom note-Patsy Ramsey was the ONLY ONE that could not be eliminated as the writer. The Ramsey’s agreed with the experts, whoever killed their child, wrote the ransom note. The fact that Nedra said the note looked like Patsy’s writing was compelling.

Patsy was not the only one who could not be eliminated, but she was the only one (of the few people who were not eliminated) who was in the house at the time Jon Benet died a violent death.

The fact that JB was sexually abused the night she was murdered and Dr. Wyect’s findings were consistent with a child being sexually abused prior to the crime, points only to the family or someone close to them.

Dr. Wecht was not a member of the panel of sexual abuse experts consulted on the case. Wecht was merely offering his opinion as a talking head in the case - a role he seems to enjoy thoroughly. Wecht was of the opinion that John Ramsey asphyxiated JonBenet in a kinky sex game, but other medical experts (e. g. Dr. Lee, Dr. Wright, Dr. Spitz) are all of the opinion that the head blow was delivered first.

My bet is if the autopsy photos were shown to the public, there wouldn’t be a doubt about prior sexual abuse as stated in Thomas’ book.

But keep in mind that Steve Thomas himself was not of the opinion that JonBenet had been the victim of sexual abuse.

Crime scenes are usually what they seem. This crime was staged and the only ones that needed to stage it were the Ramsey’s.

Not the crime itself was staged (after all, JonBenet did in fact die a violent death), but the crime scene was staged (I suppose this is what you meant).
Indeed, no sexual predator could have had any interest in staging a scene, nor a "small foreign faction". But the Ramseys needed to stage it to direct the attention away from themselves.

jmo

 

[Albert18]

I think John's options were limited.

In my theory and opinion, John woke up to hell.

After the head injury, if Patsy had moved JonBenet to the basement, not touched her in any way, and then written the ransom note, John, the lawyers, and the DA would have quietly shut this case down in the following days. It was an accident, case closed.

But she messed with JonBenet's body. That couldn't be undone. John had two options; fight or turn her in.

In that moment he should have chosen the family over Patsy. Maybe he regrets his decision, I doubt we will ever know.

 

[UKGuy]

rashomon,

The crime itself may have been staged you do not know for certain if someone placed a pillow over JonBenet's head and whacked her with the flashlight to mimic a violent intruder assault, then wiped the flashlight down?

.

 

[coloradokares]

A child died a horrible brutal death here yes I think prison time was appropriate. And I dont envision Jon Benet having compassion towards her murderers . I think it was a moot point for her once she entered heavens gate. She would be content to allow salvation or condemnation to rest with God. It would no longer matter to her as ultimately we all face judgement good or bad for the lives we led and judgement was never left to us to decide that is based on one thing alone. Each to their own on how they believe.:angel: :furious:

That was the point I was trying to make I really dont think we have that humanistic view when we pass to the other side. Hey dont we have a shrug smilie here? With our limited human understanding we feel oh gosh surely this little girl wouldnt want mommy, Daddy or anyone to go to a human jail. I think we dont have those feelings once we cross over. Will we be glad to see our loved ones in the bye and bye I think so but how could it be heaven if we agoized over those who never will join us and that is only my personal belief that not all will be in heaven. Still wishing I had that shrug smiley. Not asking anyone to agree with me Shrug

 

[UKGuy]

That was the point I was trying to make I really dont think we have that humanistic view when we pass to the other side. Hey dont we have a shrug smilie here? With our limited human understanding we feel oh gosh surely this little girl wouldnt want mommy, Daddy or anyone to go to a human jail. I think we dont have those feelings once we cross over. Will we be glad to see our loved ones in the bye and bye I think so but how could it be heaven if we agoized over those who never will join us and that is only my personal belief that not all will be in heaven. Still wishing I had that shrug smiley. Not asking anyone to agree with me Shrug

coloradokares,

Well the non-humanistic question is what did JonBenet say to Momma if they met in another place or is JonBenet in a better place looking down upon her mother?


.

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

Well the non-humanistic question is what did JonBenet say to Momma if they met in another place or is JonBenet in a better place looking down upon her mother?


.

Jon Benet is in a better place not looking down upon her mother, they have been reunited OR not. What did she say to momma if they reunited ? If they indeed are reunited Forgivness already settled the matter . If not...well the matters are still settled are they not? I dont wish to even think to presume human judgements any longer play a part. Not in the way the question was presented . Both have left these earthly bounds. . I am not asking anyone to agree or disagree SHRUG

 

[Nedthan Johns]

"But keep in mind that Steve Thomas himself was not of the opinion that JonBenet had been the victim of sexual abuse."

not from what I recall. I think he said and I am not quoting that the abuse was a sort of punishment. (sexual in nature)

 

[BOESP]

"But keep in mind that Steve Thomas himself was not of the opinion that JonBenet had been the victim of sexual abuse."

not from what I recall. I think he said and I am not quoting that the abuse was a sort of punishment. (sexual in nature)

I agree. Steve Thomas did not say it was not sexual abuse. He said he did not believe John Ramsey was sexually abusing his daughter, or at that is my take on Thomas's writings on the subject.

Sexual abuse from corporal cleaning versus sexual abuse for personal gratification are two different acts.

 

[icedtea4me]

The rope and tape are close seconds. If only Mc Guckins had itemized receipts, that would have hung Patsy Ramsey. But the fact that the price of the tape and rope purchased matched the amounts she spent, is pretty compelling IMO.

I wonder if an "inclusion by exclusion" method could have been applied.


-Tea