Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week Nov 20, 2014 - Trial Thread #4

[Kamille]

Risperdal is not a drug that you can abuse to get high, and it is not addictive. Maybe he just felt better on it -less anxious. Or maybe he just wanted to throw his weight around and cause a fuss by demanding it. Histrionics.

There's no.way he faked schizophrenia for all these years to get access to antipsychotics. They are not a drug that you can use recreationally. Temazepam won't get you high either AFAIK, but it is very very addictive. We have no idea how often LM was getting temazepam though - doctors usually won't prescribe it for more that a week or so because you get addicted to it really quickly.

Moo.

Or perhaps that's the only one he could remember being on...way back when. And doesn't it and most other anti psychotic medications cause weight gain and other unpleasant side effects? I'm still curious about why he kept telling these doctors he couldn't gain weight. What was the point of that? He also claimed to be going to the gym a lot. Was that just him trying to get a prescription for something that would add muscle bulk? A steroid or something?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

TEMAZEPAM - I THINK WE SHOULD ALL READ THIS INFO:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/drug-temazepam/article_em.htm

:thinking:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

"HIGHLY ORGANISED" AFTER KILLING (very good summary):

http://medicinehatnews.com/news/nat...ighly-organized-in-aftermath-of-lins-slaying/

 

[Rayemonde]

Which reports? Any between the years of 2005 - 2010? Wasn't he pretty much using the clinic doctor during that time frame? Dr Tan? Did he talk about anti psychotics that he was prescribing?

No, he was seeing a psychiatrist as well. Lemme see...

In 2005 the psychiatrist Dr Sooriabalan wrote that LM was on Seroquel, Risperdal, Nitrazepan and Ativan.
In 2006 LM writes that he spends $200 per month on medication when he is applying for bankrupsy.
in 2007 Dr Sooriabalan adjusts the dosage of LM's medications. But this is interesting - the doctor thought LM was having delusions that people were spreading rumours about him and KH. But we now know that LM was well aware that he was starting these rumours himself. So he wasn't delusional, so maybe he didn't bother taking the meds that his Dr was adjusting.
March 2008 - GP writes in notes that LM is on "several medications".
Oct 2009 Dr LM starts seeing Dr Weinstein. He writes that LMis stable, aware of his condition, takes his medications and accepts his diagnosis.
May 2010 - LM stressed and unstable, Dr Weinstein recommends doubling his meds.
August 2010 Dr Weinstein wrties that LM is hearing voices, and is not taking his meds properly. He tells LM he must take his meds regularly, especially when he is stressed.
August 2010 - LM writes online article arguing against the forced medication of mental patients.
March 2012 - LM tells doctor in walk-in clinic that he is on he is on anti-anxiety medication and anti-depressants (Paxil).

This is all the info I could find in the tweets - the doctor wrote that he "adjusted" LM's meds and things like that. No names or dosages. And of course there is absolutely no way to tell how faithfully LM was actually taking his medications.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?262540-Luka-Magnotta-Mental-Health-Timeline

 

[Rayemonde]

TEMAZEPAM - I THINK WE SHOULD ALL READ THIS INFO:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/drug-temazepam/article_em.htm

:thinking:

I'm glad LM didn't read this!! There's his perfect excuse right there:

Some people using this medicine have engaged in activity such as driving, eating, or making phone calls and later having no memory of the activity.

:floorlaugh: Sorry gov, I must've murdered and dismembered him in my sleep! I woke up covered in blood and I just panicked and ran! That would have been more believable than the "Manny Defence"

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I'm glad LM didn't read this!! There's his perfect excuse right there:


:floorlaugh: Sorry gov, I must've murdered and dismembered him in my sleep! I woke up covered in blood and I just panicked and ran! That would have been more believable than the "Manny Defence"

He probably did read that!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Kamille]

No, he was seeing a psychiatrist as well. Lemme see...

In 2005 the psychiatrist Dr Sooriabalan wrote that LM was on Seroquel, Risperdal, Nitrazepan and Ativan.
In 2006 LM writes that he spends $200 per month on medication when he is applying for bankrupsy.
in 2007 Dr Sooriabalan adjusts the dosage of LM's medications. But this is interesting - the doctor thought LM was having delusions that people were spreading rumours about him and KH. But we now know that LM was well aware that he was starting these rumours himself. So he wasn't delusional, so maybe he didn't bother taking the meds that his Dr was adjusting.
March 2008 - GP writes in notes that LM is on "several medications".
Oct 2009 Dr LM starts seeing Dr Weinstein. He writes that LMis stable, aware of his condition, takes his medications and accepts his diagnosis.
May 2010 - LM stressed and unstable, Dr Weinstein recommends doubling his meds.
August 2010 Dr Weinstein wrties that LM is hearing voices, and is not taking his meds properly. He tells LM he must take his meds regularly, especially when he is stressed.
August 2010 - LM writes online article arguing against the forced medication of mental patients.
March 2012 - LM tells doctor in walk-in clinic that he is on he is on anti-anxiety medication and anti-depressants (Paxil).

This is all the info I could find in the tweets - the doctor wrote that he "adjusted" LM's meds and things like that. No names or dosages. And of course there is absolutely no way to tell how faithfully LM was actually taking his medications.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?262540-Luka-Magnotta-Mental-Health-Timeline

Okay so let's dissect this.

In 2005 it was a letter to LM's lawyer that stated those drugs. This was in regards to a case from 2003. Also stated he wasn't taking the drugs prescribed regularily, if at all? LM was warned by the judge to take his meds.

I can't see how anyone on Ontario disability is paying for their own prescription drugs for the problem that they are on disability for. Again...this is LM's claim, but we have seen no proof of this. He would have been eligible for coverage. Has anyone checked to see if he ever used it? http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/en/mcss/programs/social/odsp/income_support/odsp_prescription.aspx

Doctor is adjusting meds based on hallucinations that are not hallucinations and are a convenient way for LM to get attention for the KH fiasco that he created. Again...no proof that any prescription was filled or any drugs were taken.

GP writes he is on several drugs based on what? Does GP prescribe drugs? Is LM still seeing psychiatrist on a regular basis to get these drugs? Is this once again a report of what LM told the doctor?

Does Dr Weinstein prescribe the drugs that he says LM is stable on? It's obvious that he's not taking them if he is being prescribed them and he's having so many problems that he needs the meds doubled. He's off the Ontario Disability program by this time isn't he? So he'd have to pay for his own drugs? Or is he?

Did anyone from the prosecution even check with the Ontario Disability Support Program to see if LM had any claims for medication and when?

I really don't think he was ever taking anti psychotic medication. Certainly not on a regular basis. So to suggest that he had a "downhill" spiral since 2010 (when he CLAIMS he stopped taking them even though he lied to other doctors after that) and conveniently leave out all of his other transgressions prior to that is disingenuous IMO.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Some people using this medicine have engaged in activity such as driving, eating, or making phone calls and later having no memory of the activity.

Might explain why no one ever heard from the Columbian? Especially if he's not Columbian and he's back in some other country with no information of this murder or LM?

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Well, his psychiatrists seemed to think that he was on meds until they warned him in 2010 that he must take them regularly (presumably because he'd told them that he'd been skipping them). He must have been filling the prescriptions or wouldn't the doctors know that? And wouldn't the prosecution be using it as part of their case? Again, there's no way to know how often he was actually taking them.

It's normal for psychiatrists to adjust or increase meds when someone is having breakthrough symptoms due to stress. It doesn't mean that there's a problem with the medication or that the diagnosis is wrong. Antipsychotics usually just help to control the symptoms most of the time, but people can still have less intense symptoms that won't go away (like hearing voices that are less intrusive), or the odd full-blown episode (usually triggered by stress).

 

[Kamille]

Well, his psychiatrists seemed to think that he was on meds until they warned him in 2010 that he must take them regularly (presumably because he'd told them that he'd been skipping them). He must have been filling the prescriptions or wouldn't the doctors know that? And wouldn't the prosecution be using it as part of their case? Again, there's no way to know how often he was actually taking them.

It's normal for psychiatrists to adjust or increase meds when someone is having breakthrough symptoms due to stress. It doesn't mean that there's a problem with the medication or that the diagnosis is wrong. Antipsychotics usually just help to control the symptoms most of the time, but people can still have less intense symptoms that won't go away (like hearing voices that are less intrusive), or the odd full-blown episode (usually triggered by stress).

There is absolutely no way that a psychiatrist can tell if a patient is taking or even filling the prescription of the medication they are being prescribed. Unless they want to take blood tests to see if it's in their system. Which I'm pretty sure they don't do. I think the whole field just relies totally on self reporting.

It's not like if someone is not taking blood pressure or other prescription medication from a GP. Which does require blood test monitoring to make sure it is working.

So I'd really like to know if the prosecution in Montreal even considered checking with the OSDP to see if LM ever submitted claims to them for his medication. And if he didn't? Well I suppose he could just "self report" that he chose to pay for it himself and not use the drug card they supplied him with.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

No, you don't have to have blood tests for the meds he was on (although you do for a few psychiatric drugs - lithium and clozapine for example). No, there's no way to know if he was actually taking them as prescribed or at all.

 

[Rayemonde]

Michaël Nguyen ‏@MNguyenJDM 4m4 minutes ago
The jury has returned, the Magnotta trial continues with the testimony of Dr Chamberland, psychiatric expert for the Crown.
Le jury est rappelé, le procès #Magnotta continue avec le témoignage du Dr Chamberland, psychiatre expert pour la Couronne.

François Messier ‏@MessierSRC 2m2 minutes ago
With Roy, Magnotta had a little more medication. Including a higher dose of antipsychotic.
Avec Roy, #Magnotta a "un peu plus de médication". Plus forte dose d'antipsychotique, notamment -Chamberland

Michaël Nguyen ‏@MNguyenJDM 3m3 minutes ago
With Dr Roy, Magnotta took a little + of the meds than with Dr Talbot. The former succeeded the latter as his psychiatrist.
Avec la Dr Roy, #Magnotta prenait un peu + de médocs qu'avec le Dr Talbot. La première a succédé à ce dernier comme psychiatre traitant

Michaël Nguyen ‏@MNguyenJDM 3m3 minutes ago
The defence objects. Off-jury.
Objection de la défense. Hors-jury. #Magnotta

:waiting:

Jury returns! That was quick.

Michaël Nguyen ‏@MNguyenJDM 44s44 seconds ago
Magnotta Has not told his prison psychiatrist all "for not going antisuicide wing ." Therefore able to filter information , according to the witness .
#Magnotta n'a pas tout dit à sa psy en prison "pour ne pas aller en aile antisuicide". Donc capable de filtrer les infos, selon le témoin.

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 43s 43 seconds ago
Now you enter the reports of general practitioners. #Magnotta
On entre maintenant dans les rapports des médecins généralistes. #Magnotta

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 4m 4 minutes ago
Magnotta did not talk about his hallucinations to Dr Roy, for fear of being put on anti- suicidal measures.
#Magnotta ne voulait pas parler de ses hallucinations avec Dr Roy, car craignait d'être mis en mesures anti-suicidaires. Dr Chamberland

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 3m 3 minutes ago
This demonstrates the ability to filter information, says Dr
Cela démontre qu'il est capable de filtrer l'information, dit Dr

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 39s 40 seconds ago
In 2012, Magnottamet with a psychiatrist. Said he was followed in Ontario for bipolar. Said he took Paxil, Lorazepam and Temazepam
En 2012, #Magnotta a consulté pour référence en psych. Disait être suivi Ontario pour bipolaire. Disait avoir Paxil, Lorazepam et Temazepam

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 46s 47 seconds ago
Magnotta Did not want to not talk about his hallucinations to Dr Paris in April 12, for fear of being hospitalized. Chamberland questioned.

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji 4m4 minutes ago
Chamberland: #Magnotta didn't tell treating psychiatrist at RDP (Dr. Roy) everything, to avoid suicide wing so he's able to filter info.
#Magnotta n'a pas voulu non plus parler de ses hallucinations à Dr Paris en avril 12, de peur d'être hospitalisé. Chamberland en doute.

 

[Rayemonde]

François Messier @MessierSRC · 16m 16 minutes ago
28th Dec 2012: the psy Roy notes that Magnotta is "ready to be more honest" about his symptoms.
28 déc 2012: la psy Roy note que #Magnotta lui a écrit être "prêt à être plus honnête" avec elle, notamment en ce qui concerne ses symptômes

François Messier @MessierSRC · 14m 14 minutes ago
The exchange prior to the objection [of the defence]. Could Magnotta? be transferred to Pinel RDP ? Theoretically yes , responded Chamberland
L'échange précédant l'objection: #Magnotta aurait-il pu être transféré de RDP à Pinel? Théoriquement, oui, a répondu Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 9m 9 minutes ago
Jury back. Chamberland says that Magnotta is capable of "filtering information" by pointing out he is willing to be more honest
On reprend. Chamberland dit que #Magnotta semblait capable de "filtrer l'information" en soulignant être disposé à être plus honnête

François Messier @MessierSRC · 8m 8 minutes ago
Magnotta actually hinted that he had not been entirely honest with Roy to avoid being hit by anti- suicidal actions
#Magnotta a en fait laissé entendre qu'il n'avait pas été tout à fait honnête avec Roy pour éviter d'être frappé de mesures anti-suicidaires

François Messier @MessierSRC · 6m 6 minutes ago
Chamberland is now up to the visit of #Magnotta to Dr. Jean Destin winter 2012. He said he suffered from bipolar disorder
Chamberland revient maintenant sur la visite de #Magnotta à la Dre Jean Destin à l'hiver 2012. Il disait souffrir d'un désordre bipolaire

François Messier @MessierSRC · 4m 4 minutes ago
It is "strange" that Magnotta did not mention his hallucinations to Jean Destin: there was no risk of hospitalisation. - Chamberland
Il est "étrange" que #Magnotta n'a pas mentionné ses hallucinations à Jean Destin: il n'y avait aucun risque d'hospitalisation -Chamberland

 

[Rayemonde]

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 6m 6 minutes ago
According to the witness, #Magnotta had + chance of being hospitalised against his will at the Jewish with what he said about his manic symptoms .
Selon le témoin, #Magnotta avait + de chance d'être hospitalisé contre son gré au Jewish avec ce qu'il a dit sur ses symptômes de manie.

ME: What, for going on shopping sprees? I don't think so

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 3m 3 minutes ago
"For me, in this case , I did not bcp evidences of schizophrenia " -Chamberland . #Magnotta
"Pour moi, dans ce dossier, j'ai pas bcp d'évidences de la schizophrénie" -Chamberland. #Magnotta

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 1m 1 minute ago
" #Magnotta 's Actions are influenced by his personality and simulation rather than schizophrenia " -Chamberland
"Les agissements de #Magnotta sont influencés par sa personnalité et la simulation plutôt que par la schizophrénie" -Chamberland

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 10m 10 minutes ago
Magnotta presented to Dr Paris in April 12 as having mania. Strange, as he had more chance of being hospitalised for that.
#Magnotta s,est présenté au Dr Paris en avril 12, comme ayant des manies. Étrange car il avait plus de chance d'être hospitalisé pour ça.

François Messier @MessierSRC · 16m 16 minutes ago
Chamberland notes that Paris referred Magnotta to a clinic for personality disorders, nothing else.
Chamberland note que Paris a référé #Magnotta à une clinique pour troubles de la personnalité, pas autre chose.

François Messier @MessierSRC · 15m 15 minutes ago
Magnotta didn't mention his hallucinations to Dr Paris so he wouldn't be hospitalised, but it was far from automatic.
#Magnotta n'a pas mentionné ses hallucinations au Dr Paris pour ne pas être hospitalisé, mais c'était loin d'être

François Messier @MessierSRC · 12m 12 minutes ago
Yet #Magnotta spoke of manic symptoms to Paris, example an impulsive trip. It could have argued for hospitalization -Chamberland
Pourtant, #Magnotta a parlé de symptômes maniaques à Paris, ex. voyage impulsif. Ça aurait pu lui valoir hospitalisation -Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 9m 9 minutes ago
" Schizophrenia , not much evidence ," says Chamberland . " Extremely difficult " to explain what happened from that pt of view
"La schizophrénie, j'en ai pas beaucoup d'évidence" dit Chamberland."extrêmement difficile" d'expliquer ce qui s'est passé avec ce pt de vue

François Messier @MessierSRC · 8m 8 minutes ago
By adopting the point of view of a personality disorder, it gets + "simple", looks "clear", explains what happened.
En adoptant le pt de vue du trouble de la personnalité, ça devient + "simple", voire "limpide" d'expliquer ce qui s'est passé -Chamberland

François Messier @MessierSRC · 6m 6 minutes ago
Chamberland asked about an article by Dr. Paris : Why psychologists are reluctant to diagnose borderline personality disorder? #Magnotta
Chamberland interrogé sur un article du Dr Paris: Pourquoi les psys hésitent à diagnostiquer les troubles de personnalité limite? #Magnotta

christianedesjardins @chridesjardins · 9m 9 minutes ago
#Magnotta Gave his birth date and contact details with a number of errors to Dr. Paris. Would not be reached , believes Dr Chamberl
#Magnotta a donné ses dates naiss et coordonnées avec un chiffre d'erreur à chaque, au Dr Paris. Voulait pas être rejoint, pense Dr Chamberl

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 7s 8 seconds ago
Short break at the request of the jury
courte pause à la demande du jury. #Magnotta

 

[Kamille]

Thanks Rayemonde, got sidetracked and wasn't able to post the tweets after lunch. Here's the English ones anyway...

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 28m28 minutes ago
Chamberland: #Magnotta didn't tell treating psychiatrist at RDP (Dr. Roy) everything, to avoid suicide wing so he's able to filter info.

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 13m13 minutes ago
Crown points out in visit to psychiatry clinic 1 month before killing, #Magnotta gave mistakes in address & DOB. 4x gave 1 digit off

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 16m16 minutes ago
Chamberland: could be a faulty secretary, but most likely #Magnotta didn't want to be found for a follow-up, wanted something that day.

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji · 11m11 minutes ago
Chamberland repeats his conclusion: #Magnotta behaviour can be explained by personality disorders and simulation of schizophrenia symptoms

Looks like another legal argument without jury? Oh wait it's a break requested by the jury?

 

[Rayemonde]

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji 17m17 minutes ago
Crown points out in visit to psychiatry clinic 1 month before killing, #Magnotta gave mistakes in address & DOB. 4x gave 1 digit off

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji 17m17 minutes ago
Chamberland: could be a faulty secretary, but most likely #Magnotta didn't want to be found for a follow-up, wanted something that day.

salimah shivji ‏@salimah_shivji 15m15 minutes ago
Chamberland repeats his conclusion: #Magnotta behaviour can be explained by personality disorders and simulation of schizophrenia symptoms

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM · 46s 47 seconds ago
The defence has suggested that Dr Paris was biased towards personality disorders. As this is is speciality.
La défense avait suggéré que Dr Paris était biaisé vers les troubles de perso limite. Témoin dit que p-e est spécialisé. #Magnotta

Michaël Nguyen @MNguyenJDM
We are without-jury at the request of the advocate for Magnotta
Nous somme en hors-jury à la demande de l'avocat de #Magnotta

 

[Rayemonde]

Yep there was a break at the request of the jury but they're back now. I think. Nobody's really tweeting... I think everyone is just so sick of this trial!

 

[Rayemonde]

The article by Dr Paris that Dr Chamberland is referring to:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922389/

Abstract
Clinicians can be reluctant to make a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder (BPD). One reason is that BPD is a complex syndrome with symptoms that overlap many Axis I disorders. This paper will examine interfaces between BPD and depression, between BPD and bipolar disorder, and between BPD and psychoses. It will suggest that making a BPD diagnosis does more justice to patients than avoiding it . . .

BPD patients do have quasipsychotic or micropsychotic symptoms, such as voices telling them to kill themselves, paranoid feelings, and depersonalization.2 However these cognitive symptoms are not essential features of BPD. The core of the syndrome is a striking instability of mood, accompanied by a wide range of impulsive behaviors, particularly self-cutting and overdoses, and with intimate relationships that are impulsive, stormy, and chaotic.

 

[Kamille]

Okay so he likely lied about taking Paxil and Temazepam to get the prescription for both, even though he only intended to fill the prescription for the Temazepam. By lying about the Paxil he was just humouring Dr. Paris about being diagnosed with BPD. So did Dr. Paris renew the prescriptions? He supposedly referred LM back to the clinic. Did someone there renew the prescriptions?


Why is it so difficult to figure out WHO prescribed the Temazapam or HOW he got it? :gaah:

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Interesting...

BPD and Psychosis
The original concept of BPD as lying on a border between neurosis and psychosis found a parallel in the diagnostic term pseudoneurotic schizophrenia.16 The concept was that patients with such a wide variety of neurotic symptoms could be latently psychotic. However, this diagnosis confused personality disorders primarily affecting mood and impulsivity (like BPD) with categories that primarily affect cognition, such as schizotypal personality.17 Neither family history studies nor biological markers support a link between BPD and schizophrenia.18 Nonetheless, some cases are challenging for differential diagnosis, since the cognitive symptoms of BPD can occasionally be florid. However, these phenomena are transient and stress-related, while insight is retained, as the following case example illustrates.

Case example—Patient 1. Bill was a 25-year-old man under treatment for chronic suicidality, unstable relationships, and mood instability. He also had paranoid ideas, sometimes thinking that neighbors were plotting against him. All these thoughts, however, were exaggerations of real situations and never had the bizarre quality of delusions. Bill also heard critical voices in his head when stressed, but knew that such experiences were imaginary. Bill received a DIB-R score of 9/10.

Nonetheless, Bill was initially diagnosed with schizophrenia and treated for psychosis for over five years with injectable antipsychotic medication. Bill actually liked attending this clinic and getting the injections, since it gave him a reason to come in every two weeks and to talk with a nurse. However, as his life stabilized, Bill’s micropsychotic symptoms eventually remitted, along with his impulsive and affective symptoms. By age 30, Bill stopped taking neuroleptics and never had a relapse of paranoid ideas or hallucinations.