MISTRIAL MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #19

[sunshineray]

Yes! You bring up a good point of why, if Karen had hit John right there outside the house, why didn't anybody hear or see anything out the window? Lots of the people at the house had good reasons to be looking outside: is it snowing yet? is my ride here yet? is my friend John here yet? I think John might have gone toward the backyard. He may have heard BA, CA, BH out in the yard with the dog, maybe having a smoke, and John came walking through the gate unexpectedly. What might a GSD do when a stranger comes on her property like that? It's not hard to imagine hot tempers stemming from a dog attack. The men could have retreated into the basement gym. That would jive with the steps from John's watch data by going down bulkhead stairs. Inside, it could've been a complete accident, he may have fallen on a dumbbell or hit his head on something very hard. Or, someone might've hurt him. They may have kicked him out of the house or John might've stumbled outside himself, eventually collapsing on the lawn.

Didn't KR say she saw John go thru the door into the house?

 

[sunshineray]

IIRC Karen said John was viewed as the “Patron Saint of Canton”

Weird huh?

A lot of things she said/says are weird, IMO.

 

[Spectrix]

I think John might have gone toward the backyard. He may have heard BA, CA, BH out in the yard with the dog, maybe having a smoke, and John came walking through the gate unexpectedly. What might a GSD do when a stranger comes on her property like that? It's not hard to imagine hot tempers stemming from a dog attack. The men could have retreated into the basement gym. That would jive with the steps from John's watch data by going down bulkhead stairs. Inside, it could've been a complete accident, he may have fallen on a dumbbell or hit his head on something very hard. Or, someone might've hurt him. They may have kicked him out of the house or John might've stumbled outside himself, eventually collapsing on the lawn.

IMO it’s impossible to imagine

Honest question here Linda, with no disrespect implied.

You're saying it's impossible to imagine the above scenario, but you're okay believing the CW's scenario:

JOK, after being smashed so hard by a 4000 pound Lexus that he flew through the air and was deposited on someone's lawn, either dying or dead... was left with a bump on the head and a dog bitten tail light bitten arm and no other injuries.

No bruises on the body, no broken legs or ribs?

IMO the CW's scenario appears to be very unlikely.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

It's simple, keeping a bunch of tabs open and then, hours later, choosing an open one to do a new search, hit the X and type in new search words, instead of opening a new tab. I do it all the time. JMO

I do that too. However, Google does not update the timestamp when a tab is revisited. You will potentially see a second search, but the first search will still be there, unaltered.
Google search URLs contain timestamps that indicate when the search occurred. These timestamps are embedded in the URL parameters and are used to track the exact time of user actions.

Browser history timestamps are pretty accurate. Google and other search engines simply don’t do when Jen insinuated they did with her ‘hos long to die in cold’ search.

Especially when you consider she is not claiming to have searched something earlier and revisited the tab later as you suggest. She is claiming that she made a search around 6am, and Google transposed it to an EARLIER time of 2:27. Simply not possible.

All imo.

 

[mrjitty]

Honest question here Linda, with no disrespect implied.

You're saying it's impossible to imagine the above scenario, but you're okay believing the CW's scenario:

JOK, after being smashed so hard by a 4000 pound Lexus that he flew through the air and was deposited on someone's lawn, either dying or dead... was left with a bump on the head and a dog bitten tail light bitten arm and no other injuries.

No bruises on the body, no broken legs or ribs?

IMO the CW's scenario appears to be very unlikely.

I'll take a stab at this.

As you correctly point out, the evidence can't be reconciled. Normally you could just discount the ARCCA experts as hired guns, but because we know they were instructed by the Feds, we can't do that here.

This irreconcilable knot shows that something is wrong in the evidence/theories. The defence allege this is due the defendant being framed. That's one theory.

Alternatively I think the state just did not put together a cohesive reconstruction - which might partly be because the lack of clear data from the vehicle. But also incompetent analysis.

For instance, I am not sure how hard the Lexus really would have needed to strike him in order for him to fall and break his skull. I've seen other cases where someone was knocked unconscious in a fight, fell on a hard surface and was fatally injured from that fall. Which is actually what the defence allege.

Not being a reconstruction expert - i have no idea about these things. For instance is it possible John staggered, then fell where he was found? Or other way around? But obviously if the CW cannot come up with a credible reconstruction, the verdict must be NG.

I tend to agree that the CW theory as presented was internally inconsistent - but that could be simply due to incompetence as opposed to framing. IMO.

 

[Spectrix]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

For instance is it possible John staggered, then fell where he was found? Or other way around?

Having reviewed the various medical testimonies throughout trial #1, no I don't believe so.

It was suggested that the blow to the back of the skull was so severe that it rendered JOK unconscious immediately
If that is the case, how did he get from the road to the yard?
Keeping in mind the CW's scenario involves KR reversing into JOK (on purpose) and then leaving him to die in the cold. Did KR drag him over there?

These are the kind of questions to ask yourself if you truly believe that she's guilty of murder.

 

[nodamselindistress]

Not enough weight has been given to the blood dripping down JOK's shirt IMHO. It is evidence that at some point he was standing or seated to have allowed the blood to flow downwards onto his shirt. As he was found laying on the ground, the blood would have dripped down onto the ground under his head.

 

[Spectrix]

Not enough weight has been given to the blood dripping down JOK's shirt IMHO. It is evidence that at some point he was standing or seated to have allowed the blood to flow downwards onto his shirt. As he was found laying on the ground, the blood would have dripped down onto the ground under his head.

Really solid point.

Shown at timestamp 00:13 seconds in this video:

 

[willyengland]

Forensic testing showed that O’Keefe’s hair was found on the vehicle’s bumper and his DNA was found on the taillight, Lally said. Investigators also found the remnants of a cocktail that appears to have been spilled on the bumper, the prosecutor said. O’Keefe was captured on video leaving the bar with a cocktail in his hand, and bits of what the prosecutor described as a drinking glass were found in the SUV’s bumper.

What to know on the Karen Read murder case and mistrial

Prosecutors have vowed to retry Read after a mistrial in her murder case. She has claimed innocence and alleges law enforcement officers are trying to frame her in John O’Keefe’s death.

www.nbcnews.com

I am wondering how this happened.
When a car crashes into an upright man, he is hit probably in the legs or pelvis at the most.
How gets his hair on the bumper? Was he hit more than once?

An emergency responder testified that Read, after O'Keefe's body was found, repeatedly said, "I hit him."

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/28/nx-s1-5343433/karen-read-second-murder-trial

 

[Spectrix]

I am wondering how this happened.
When a car crashes into an upright man, he is hit probably in the legs or pelvis at the most.
How gets his hair on the bumper? Was he hit more than once?

Exactly, assuming JOK was standing, the bumper on this SUV would most likely impact legs first (think of a fractured tibia/fibula, smashed kneecap, severe bruising) followed by the tail light area (think of a fractured femur/pelvis, severe bruising) followed by his torso (think of fractured ribs, organ damage, severe bruising).

But his head hitting the bumper? I mean maybe if he was crouched on the road - but that scenario just doesn't line up with the blunt force trauma in the somewhat protected area behind the skull.

 

[Forest_Wood]

IIRC Karen said John was viewed as the “Patron Saint of Canton”

Weird huh?

I can see it used in this context. The documentary said he was loyal to others and protective of his family.

ETA: And as I look at this definition, I can see him being protective of Karen too then, and possibly being riled up with Higgins if he had known about their flirting.

 

[waldojabba]

I still can't believe an alternate juror is now a lawyer for the defense!

Altho it is unusual I am not sure whats so hard to believe? I dont care who she works for P or D. Unusual yes but hinky no.

This juror never deliberated with the other jurors. She did have a birds eye view of the trial from the jurybox ...but it was a small courtroom so most people had good seats. Her familarity with the case is her main strength and I think she will be an asset to the defense. She could have also been an asset to the prosecution but it did not seem to work out that way.
With all the layoffs swirling around us its nice to see someone getting a good job and furtherng their career.
What I still cannot believe is that this case is going to back for a second trial with the same judge, who clearly should have been rotated out to avoid the perception/appearance of bias, using my taxpayer money as well as tax monies of others. Id rather see the money go to fixing the roads and supplementing school lunches etc.
And then if she is convicted we will see appeals ( so many appelate issues thanks Judge)and then more tax money being thrown at this.

Locals are disgusted about what is going on here. I am thankful to be busy with work etc and will not have the time to watch a lot of the trial -

Just my 2 cents -

 

[StarryStarryNight]

So we get to see a local freaking weatherman to tell us the ground was closed but not an FBI expert to tell how crappy the investigation into the murder was. Make this make sense to me?

I know plenty of folks want this trial to be about something else, but it’s really just about the charges against KR.
The defense can still convey, mostly through their cross examination of witnesses testifying about actual evidence, how bungled they think the investigation was. Other expert witnesses of theirs can give contrary opinions on the actual evidence.
To have one witness testify solely that, in their opinion, the investigation was “crappy” is not focused enough and skews the trial’s purpose too far from the charges against KR.
Again, the defense can still get information in on the lousy investigation.
It’ll be fine.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Trebor5591]

<snip>. What might a GSD do when a stranger comes on her property like that? It's not hard to imagine hot tempers stemming from a dog attack. <snip>

Almost all deliveries to my house come to the side door. In the front yard is where my 4 year old GSD hangs out. On the gate is a large "Beware of the dog" sign. One day I was looking out my front window when I saw a delivery man open the gate to the front yard! My GSD saw him and retreated to a safe distance from the stranger. The man carried the package up my front steps, leaving it on the porch. My GSD kept a safe distance the whole time. Only when the man left through the front gate, did my GSD began barking ferociously!

The point is, most pet dogs will retreat from a stranger. Only if they have had attack training will they confront a stranger and bite him. IMO.

 

[Derph]

What to know on the Karen Read murder case and mistrial

Prosecutors have vowed to retry Read after a mistrial in her murder case. She has claimed innocence and alleges law enforcement officers are trying to frame her in John O’Keefe’s death.

www.nbcnews.com

I am wondering how this happened.
When a car crashes into an upright man, he is hit probably in the legs or pelvis at the most.
How gets his hair on the bumper? Was he hit more than once?

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/28/nx-s1-5343433/karen-read-second-murder-trial

Again, JOK's DNA on the car means absolutely nothing! They were a couple and there are a 100 different ways his DNA would be found all over that car. It could have been there when he lifted the back to put groceries in there for all we know.

The hair is also explained away the same way. I'm a guy with long hair and have had it long for decades. My hair is probably in about 25 different states by this point. Now I know JOK's hair wasn't long but that doesn't mean it it wouldn't be found in and around a car that he was in that night and many others times before.

Also since blood dripping down JOK's shirt was brought up there is also the mystery of how vomit got inside his pants? I can't remember if any was found on his shirt of hoodie. He would need to be sitting up at some point.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Almost all deliveries to my house come to the side door. In the front yard is where my 4 year old GSD hangs out. On the gate is a large "Beware of the dog" sign. One day I was looking out my front window when I saw a delivery man open the gate to the front yard! My GSD saw him and retreated to a safe distance from the stranger. The man carried the package up my front steps, leaving it on the porch. My GSD kept a safe distance the whole time. Only when the man left through the front gate, did my GSD began barking ferociously!

The point is, most pet dogs will retreat from a stranger. Only if they have had attack training will they confront a stranger and bite him. IMO.

All dogs behave differently, just as all people behave differently under the same circumstances. Chloe was reportedly a high-strung police dog, retired from police work, who wasn't comfortable around people, who had attacked others. I don't believe you can compare your dog to Chloe just because they are the same breed.
MOO

 

[Forest_Wood]

Again, the defense can still get information in on the lousy investigation.
It’ll be fine.

I agree! The defense will surely get their message across even without this FBI witness. He is not needed IMO.

 

[PamCake]

IMO it’s impossible to imagine

Really? How so?

 

[Wishbone]

But the lead investigator in the case, Massachusetts State Trooper Michael Proctor, was fired last month over allegations that he had disparaged Read and shared confidential investigative details, and legal experts say that Proctor will likely loom over the proceedings when they get underway Tuesday.
“I suspect that Michael Proctor — and the state police investigation in general — will be the elephant in the courtroom throughout the trial,” said Daniel Medwed, a professor of law and criminal justice at Northeastern University in Boston.

Karen Read murder case: Fired investigator Michael Proctor to loom over retrial as jury selection begins

The Massachusetts state trooper was fired last month over allegations that he had disparaged Read and shared confidential investigative details.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Linda7NJ]

Honest question here Linda, with no disrespect implied.

You're saying it's impossible to imagine the above scenario, but you're okay believing the CW's scenario:

JOK, after being smashed so hard by a 4000 pound Lexus that he flew through the air and was deposited on someone's lawn, either dying or dead... was left with a bump on the head and a dog bitten tail light bitten arm and no other injuries.

No bruises on the body, no broken legs or ribs?

IMO the CW's scenario appears to be very unlikely.

Yes, it’s incredibly easy for me to believe she hit him and drove away