MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #21 Retrial

[kuromiiiilove]

I’m wondering if the spoiler above the Lexus hatch would line up with John O’Keefe’s head injury?

IMO not likely at all. For John’s head to hit the spoiler without his legs hitting the bumper, his body would need to be levitating at spoiler height.

It’s just not how pedestrian impact works. The lower body is almost always hit first, causing the person to the flip or tumble.

There’s no evidence of bumper injuries to John’s lower body, other than the tiny bruise you mentioned which could have been from any minor bump in the days before his death.

IMO the idea that John’s head somehow hit the spoiler is completely oppositional to the laws of physics.

 

[Linda7NJ]

<modsnip - snark> Now explain how the Lexis crashed into his head without touching ANY other part of his body?

Explain to me how that little tap on John’s car did all that damage to Karen’s SUV?

Considering the bumper would have prevented her from damaging her taillight and nothing explains that ding

IMO

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Knee = bumper
Arm = taillight

IMO

Can you elaborate? I’m very much struggling to see how you think his head hit the spoiler, his arm hit the taillight, and his knee hit the bumper all at the same time. He would have to be leaning down for his arm to be that close to his knee, which would place his head far lower than the spoiler.

MOO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

IMO not likely at all. For John’s head to hit the spoiler without his legs hitting the bumper, his body would need to be levitating at spoiler height.

It’s just not how pedestrian impact works. The lower body is almost always hit first, causing the person to the flip or tumble.

There’s no evidence of bumper injuries to John’s lower body, other than the tiny bruise you mentioned which could have been from any minor bump in the days before his death.

IMO the idea that John’s head somehow hit the spoiler is completely oppositional to the laws of physics.

Sideswipes are totally different from straight on.

I’m not sold on the idea by any means - I’m not convinced the spoiler would survive such an impact. It’s cheesy plastic

Imo

 

[iQuill]

I understand what you are saying and I’ve also thought about tracks, disturbances in the snow - and whether they would be sufficiently covered up in less than 4 hours.

Wait ... if JOK, when lifted, was laying on bare ground, no snow ... then wouldn't it make sense that there was no collected snow on the lawn when he was placed there ... and therefore no footprints because ... no snow yet.
Or:
Is is possible that a small amount of accumulated snow on the ground melted under JOK while his body was still warm and that is why some are suggesting there should be disturbance and footprints leading from the house to the spot?
Just trying to figure this out ... kinda glad I'm not a juror on this case ... sheesh!

 

[thebedbug]

IMO not likely at all. For John’s head to hit the spoiler without his legs hitting the bumper, his body would need to be levitating at spoiler height.

It’s just not how pedestrian impact works. The lower body is almost always hit first, causing the person to the flip or tumble.

There’s no evidence of bumper injuries to John’s lower body, other than the tiny bruise you mentioned which could have been from any minor bump in the days before his death.

IMO the idea that John’s head somehow hit the spoiler is completely oppositional to the laws of physics.

There's no evidence he got out of the car. Somehow disabled temperature (it seems) and tracking sensors of his phone. Went into the house. Was immediately set upon by a murderous teen/adult, attacked by a dog, and somehow dragged out into the yard and left to die on the front lawn (because why not) with his phone smashed under his body and a drinking glass broken next to him, with just enough LUCK that Karen Read has nothing indisputable to prove her innocence and the willingness of a multitude of unconnected individuals to lie or manipulate evidence to cover up the irrational murder of a seemingly good guy.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Can you elaborate? I’m very much struggling to see how you think his head hit the spoiler, his arm hit the taillight, and his knee hit the bumper all at the same time. He would have to be leaning down for his arm to be that close to his knee, which would place his head far lower than the spoiler.

MOO.

I can’t get his head aligned in any way that makes sense considering I’m convinced the arm was caused by the taillight.

I’m arguing with myself at this point because I’m intrigued by Hank’s instruction to the jury to notice the height of the spoiler

IMO

 

[Spectrix]

The state says Karen hit him at the Alberts within minutes of her phone connecting to John's wifi at 1236am.

Yep, and the last recorded movement of John's phone was at 12:34am.

I mean it's still totally possible that she ran him over at 12:34am and got home in time to leave him a string of abusive messages from 12:36am.

She just needed to be travelling at around 300mph. In a blizzard.

KR must be a really skilled drunk driver.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Explain to me how that little tap on John’s car did all that damage to Karen’s SUV?

Considering the bumper would have prevented her from damaging her taillight and nothing explains that ding

IMO

If a bumper would have blocked the taillight impact with John’s car, then explain how Karen’s taillight got damaged at all. According to your theory, wouldn’t that mean that when John was hit, the bumper would be damaged, rather than the taillight?

You can’t have it both ways. The damage to the taillight makes way more sense from a confirmed tap of another vehicle rather than a human body.

 

[thebedbug]

We haven't heard the phone temperature data, yet - have we? If that is what we expect.... ie. the temp drops from the time JO gets out of the car and never rises, until the morning when Roberts picks it up... the defense is up a creek with any of these "he went into the house and was killed by a mob/dog" theories, I'd think.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

There's no evidence he got out of the car. Somehow disabled temperature (it seems) and tracking sensors of his phone. Went into the house. Was immediately set upon by a murderous teen/adult, attacked by a dog, and somehow dragged out into the yard and left to die on the front lawn (because why not) with his phone smashed under his body and a drinking glass broken next to him, with just enough LUCK that Karen Read has nothing indisputable to prove her innocence and the willingness of a multitude of unconnected individuals to lie or manipulate evidence to cover up the irrational murder of a seemingly good guy.

Which brings us back to EBARD. You’re right - the investigation was not properly conducted and no one can say for sure what happened.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Which brings us back to EBARD. You’re right - the investigation was not properly conducted and no one can say for sure what happened.

REASONABLE being the key word

IMO

 

[thebedbug]

Which brings us back to EBARD. You’re right - the investigation was not properly conducted and no one can say for sure what happened.

For sure? We can't know, second for second, exactly how it went down... but there is a whole lot pointing at KR. It's not beyond ANY doubt, it's beyond a REASONABLE doubt and from what we know, so far and from the last trial, I can't think of any REASONABLE explanation other than KR hit him with the SUV.

 

[Forest_Wood]

The spoiler is roughly 5.5 feet off the ground - depending on tires
How tall was John?

I was responding to the poster questioning if Karen’s phone records will also be assessed.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

REASONABLE being the key word

IMO

Yes, and I guess that’s down to opinion. In my opinion, missing and altered phone data, early morning ‘butt dials’, investigators being involved that did not disclose they knew those at 34 Fairview, an incomplete investigation with major chain of custody issues, conflicting witness statements, the lead investigator being clearly biased towards Karen and being fired as a result of his misconduct on the case, and the CW withholding evidence from the defense (Local – NBC Boston) all constitutes reasonable doubt to me.

 

[Linda7NJ]

We’re BACK!

 

[Spectrix]

I’m arguing with myself at this point because I’m intrigued by Hank’s instruction to the jury to notice the height of the spoiler

Yeah, I'm also curious where he's going with that.

John's height of six foot does line up with your estimated spoiler height of 5.5 feet, but like you said, trying to understand the mechanics of how the rest of it fits is puzzling.

 

[mrjitty]

Dr Wolfe also has no text messages

Shocker

Hope the Judge throws the book here.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Daniel Wolfe is looking silly & acting slippery

IMO

 

[kuromiiiilove]

For sure? We can't know, second for second, exactly how it went down... but there is a whole lot pointing at KR. It's not beyond ANY doubt, it's beyond a REASONABLE doubt and from what we know, so far and from the last trial, I can't think of any REASONABLE explanation other than KR hit him with the SUV.

But the standard isn’t ’Could something point to guilt?’ It’s ’Was the case investigated and prosecuted in a way that leaves no reasonable uncertainty?’

What happened over the course of the investigation into this case aren’t just small errors. It’s a documented pattern. As I said above, missing and altered phone data, undisclosed personal ties between witnesses and investigators, conflicting witness statements, chain of custody failures,the lead investigator being fired for his misconduct, and the CW withholding evidence from the defense. I’m really not nitpicking. There was systemic contamination of the evidence related to this case. I’m not looking for perfection and I don’t expect it. But I can recognize that this case has been majorly compromised. MOO.