MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #25 Retrial

[Izzylizzy]

What you write makes sense to me, but I find it sad and quite disturbing that in reality perhaps only a minority can be expected to understand the concept of BARD, the prosecutor's burden and have the willingness to put aside bias and apply the faculty of reason to evidence. Or if not this, then perhaps choose to just ride with the more outspoken jurors and follow their lead. It's so cynical but perhaps it is just realistic, idk.

At trial x1 though, the info from the jurors who spoke out was that they were hung nine guilty, three not guilty on the manslaughter charge, not the murder charge. On the murder charge, the last jury had apparently understood the CW had not met their burden to prove intent. Imo.

But that doesn't change the fact nine out of twelve apparently believed a vehicle impact had occurred. That is worrisome. Jmo

ETA I wanted to add l don't think the jurors last time needed to understand physics or advanced math (I don't) to appreciate the scientific value of the expert testimony. I thought the evidence was presented in layperson language and unpacked to make it comprehensible for the average person. Jmo

As far as I know all we know is it's a younger jury.
Mark Bederow did say that there's a retired LE on the jury.
How local?
I gather the name of the defendant, JOL their relatives and of all the wittiness/ relatives names would have been read to potential.

 

[HarmonyE.]

As far as I know all we know is it's a younger jury.
Mark Bederow did say that there's a retired LE on the jury.
How local?
I gather the name of the defendant, JOL their relatives and of all the wittiness/ relatives names would have been read to potential.

He or she would have to be local enough to be currently living in Norfolk County.

And yes, the names of all witnesses are read to prospective jury members to ensure (one hopes) that no one knows any of the parties.

 

[Angelwatch]

I haven't really applied myself to nutting out details, so I don't have a strong opinion at this point about what might have occurred other than Chloe was around and inflicted the arm wounds and JO was not struck by KR's Lexus or any other vehicle that night. Jmo

My suspicions about Higgins began with all the hullabaloo in testimony re the location of his jeep with plow attached, in conjunction with a bunch of other oddities, not the least being the denied call between him and BA at about 2.20amish that morning. I think BA has to very likely be involved as well. Jmo.

The Jeep has certainly been odd testimony. Ryan Nagel and the other two in the car didn’t see it so I don’t believe it was there. He had no reason to lie. Also, super weird of Higgins to say he plowed the driveway when there wasn’t snow in trial 1. The Jeep never added up so it seems like the CW has disappeared it from the night in trial 2.

 

[Izzylizzy]

This is a very good point. I don’t know about MA but in Toronto plows don’t start until there is a certain amount of accumulation. Salters go out earlier in preparation for snow storms.

"Lucky" the snow plower witness didn't have to report to the town garage until 2:30 am,
He was out on the roads at 2:20 am.

 

[Mony Mony]

Mony Mony,

Interested to hear your understanding on:

1) Lack of body injuries that would normally following a 25mph car accident? (eg no broken bones or bruising below should level on the body)
2) Lack of car damage that would normally following a 25mph car accident?
3) Body and taillight pieces being flung at 90% to the line of momentum of the car? The head is 10% of the body weight and arm is 5% of body weight, force from the car must move the other 85% of the body weight. Arm impact would be backwards if the arm was in line with body, or spin the body if arm was to side of body, Head impact is above the center of body s body would be knocked down.

I played Australian Football, where bumping people from various angles is part of the sport. (Unlike rugby or American football were people generally run towards each other AFL tackling or bumbing is from any direction) I have sent people flying through the air, but it involved my centre of mass impacting their centre of mass. Impacting an arm spins the person, A head impacts spins the head towards the ground. (Although you'll get suspended for that)

Well, I am not sure about 1 and 2. I do know JOK died of some kind of trauma. If I remember correctly, the medical examiner in the first trial ruled the cause of death as undetermined. So to me, he could have been hit by car, or he could have been struck on the back of the head, or he could have been attacked by a dog. We just don’t know.

I suspect Karen got very angry when she heard the directions to 34 Fairview included driving by Bella’s mom house.

What I do know is Karen was drunker than a skunk. And she did put her car in reverse really fast. She very likely hit JOK at that time.

It’s been testified by individuals outside of the McAlbert cabal that Karen was asking “did I hit him”.

As for #3, I do think it is very possible Proctor et. al likely sprinkled the taillight debris in hopes of securing a conviction.

If I was on the jury, I wouldn’t be able to convict at this time due to all the shenanigans, but I am fairly sure Karen hit him, but I suppose I still have some reasonable doubt.

MOO

 

[Soulmagent]

Most dogs, especially one that are rescued are microchipped. The mystery of the real Chloe could be solved.

Only of they find the dog could it be scanned, and They can re program thei nfo to the dogs new demographic.It is not like an apple air tag or anything ,but they should work like that huh?

 

[Izzylizzy]

It's the same in MA. Which is why Lucky the plow guy was out before the snow had accumulated much; he was prepping the roads.

Higgins wasn't doing that. He just had a plow attached to his Jeep.

I've heard nothing in Brian "Lucky" Loughran's testimony about him being out earlier to salt.
Is that where you heard it?

 

[danielleray500]

Oh yes, this is a deep, deadly horizontal on the top area, back of his head. It's a hit, a hard hit with force to me. JOK was tall so I would think the person came up behind him with the weapon with a powerful arm. Would they have to be about as tall as he or close to it ? I'd think if picturing it. IMO.

Perhaps a rock with the name 'Albert'? I can't help but thinking about the cleverly placed rock at jury scene visit.

 

[keek]

Perhaps a rock with the name 'Albert'? I can't help but thinking about the cleverly placed rock at jury scene visit.

Horrific and amateur move. Wonder who. People have wondered who now own the home that was sold well below market price. I did read that Kerry's sister or sister in law is a realtor that handled that. No new owners name is listed that was found, just that realtor co. Interesting regarding how that rock got there and by LE that were there before the jury arrived. Not there the day before, not that whoever the LE was, they may feel not their place or should move that away. IMO.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I've heard nothing in Brian "Lucky" Loughran's testimony about him being out earlier to salt.
Is that where you heard it?

His testimony. All drivers were called to be in at 2:30 to start prep work. Standard procedure when a major blizzard is expected.

TB also inteviewed him. BEFORE the state police did, more than a year after John's death. Their story is that they were told there were no plows on the road, so they didn't bother to find out if there had been plow passes.

 

[keek]

His testimony. All drivers were called to be in at 2:30 to start prep work. Standard procedure when a major blizzard is expected.

'They knew that at some point later after JOK was needing to be out of that house, the plows would def be coming by, waited. IMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

I am excited to see what the defense offers this time! I have a feeling they will be loaded this time with some surprises thrown in we aren’t even completely aware of. Their cross examinations blow the CW case out of the water. The first trial, they didn’t need to offer much to show he wasn’t hit by a vehicle, so I feel like they took pity on the jury and kept their defense somewhat light (especially since they blew the CW’s case during the prosecution). I think they may present more this time since they want to hit it out of the park this time. I look forward to their case. As always, this video (before Proctor took control of her vehicle) shows a cracked taillight, not a broken one!
View attachment 585334

Lots of buzz that the CW will not be calling BA, BH, Proctor which limits the defense.

It goes something like this,

The CW already knows that those testimonies could be very beneficial to the defense which is why they may choose not to call them as a witness.
The defense then will not be able to cross-examine the witness by asking leading questions.
Then the defense who knows all these witness's potential benefit has to decide whether to call them.
If they do call the witness, the prosecution can then cross-examine them, potentially revealing information that would harm the defense's case.

imo

 

[Izzylizzy]

His testimony. All drivers were called to be in at 2:30 to start prep work. Standard procedure when a major blizzard is expected.

TB also inteviewed him. BEFORE the state police did, more than a year after John's death. Their story is that they were told there were no plows on the road, so they didn't bother to find out if there had been plow passes.

Is TB the Paul guy that Lucky referred to and when Lucky said "Paul" Bev called for a sidebar and when DY began the cross again he didn't mention the name Paul.

Proctor and YB did the state interview and Lucky disagreed with every timeline they wrote down from that interview.

Yes "prep work"
And when asked what that was Lucky said it was making sure you had enough gas, check plow, his truck was put together with different kinds of parts.

Nothing to do with anything pertaining to the roads, like salting.
He left the town garage at 2:20 and began plowing.
"plow passes" isn't prepping the road it's how plowers plow the roads.

 

[Malleeboy]

Horrific and amateur move. Wonder who. People have wondered who now own the home that was sold well below market price. I did read that Kerry's sister or sister in law is a realtor that handled that. No new owners name is listed that was found, just that realtor co. Interesting regarding how that rock got there and by LE that were there before the jury arrived. Not there the day before, not that whoever the LE was, they may feel not their place or should move that away. IM

Well, I am not sure about 1 and 2. I do know JOK died of some kind of trauma. If I remember correctly, the medical examiner in the first trial ruled the cause of death as undetermined. So to me, he could have been hit by car, or he could have been struck on the back of the head, or he could have been attacked by a dog. We just don’t know.

I suspect Karen got very angry when she heard the directions to 34 Fairview included driving by Bella’s mom house.

What I do know is Karen was drunker than a skunk. And she did put her car in reverse really fast. She very likely hit JOK at that time.

It’s been testified by individuals outside of the McAlbert cabal that Karen was asking “did I hit him”.

As for #3, I do think it is very possible Proctor et. al likely sprinkled the taillight debris in hopes of securing a conviction.

If I was on the jury, I wouldn’t be able to convict at this time due to all the shenanigans, but I am fairly sure Karen hit him, but I suppose I still have some reasonable doubt.

MOO

Thanks for the response.

One possibility is that all the weird behaviour from the McAlbert's may have been because a different crime was occurring unrelated to John O'Keefe's death was occurring or was supposed to occur and they wanted to distance that event from John's death. Certainly, there was at the very likely at a minimum DUI from numerous people happening.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Live Now

 

[Malleeboy]

Lots of buzz that the state will not be calling BA, BH, Proctor which limits the defense.

It goes something like this,

The CW already knows that those testimonies could be very beneficial to the defense which is why they may choose not to call them as a witness.
The defense then will not be able to cross-examine the witness by asking leading questions.
Then the defense who knows all these witness's potential benefit has to decide whether to call them.
If they do call the witness, the prosecution can then cross-examine them, potentially revealing information that would harm the defense's case.

imo

On Direct you cannot ask leading question, on cross you can.
Remember Brennan is a Defence lawyer, he would have much more experienced on cross.

American bar association says

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/criminal_justice/resources/standards/prosecution-function/

(b) The primary duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice within the bounds of the law, not merely to convict.

Prosecution not presenting the lead investigator and police medical examiner, because they undermine your case looks like seeking conviction not justice. But Brennan is not a persecutor by moral conviction, he is a very expensive lawyer brought in to win for the DA.

 

[keek]

On Direct you cannot ask leading question, on cross you can.
Remember Brennan is a Defence lawyer, he would have much more experienced on cross.

American bar association says

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/criminal_justice/resources/standards/prosecution-function/

(b) The primary duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice within the bounds of the law, not merely to convict.

Prosecution not presenting the lead investigator and police medical examiner, because they undermine your case looks like seeking conviction not justice. But Brennan is not a persecutor by moral conviction, he is a very expensive lawyer brought in to win for the DA.

This is it. IMO

 

[Wishbone]

Live Now

they look very perplexed, guess I'll have to watch

 

[HarmonyE.]

Is TB the Paul guy that Lucky referred to and when Lucky said "Paul" Bev called for a sidebar and when DY began the cross again he didn't mention the name Paul.

Proctor and YB did the state interview and Lucky disagreed with every timeline they wrote down from that interview.

Yes "prep work"
And when asked what that was Lucky said it was making sure you had enough gas, check plow, his truck was put together with different kinds of parts.

Nothing to do with anything pertaining to the roads, like salting.
He left the town garage at 2:20 and began plowing.
"plow passes" isn't prepping the road it's how plowers plow the roads.

TB is Turtleboy. The independent journalist who interviewed Lucky before the state police. I don't know which sidebar you are referring to.

Prep work where I am simply means preparing the roads with de-icing material prior to an expected storm. Presumably the drivers are required to check their vehicles and gas levels also. There could have been enough plowable snow by 3 am, I'm not sure. I only know for certain there wasn't much snow on the ground when I looked out at 6:30 am and I'm in the same area. A few inches at most.

Lucky had no reason to lie, and said he went down both sides of Fairview several times.

 

[Izzylizzy]

TB is Turtleboy. The independent journalist who interviewed Lucky before the state police. I don't know which sidebar you are referring to.

Prep work where I am simply means preparing the roads with de-icing material prior to an expected storm. Presumably the drivers are required to check their vehicles and gas levels also. There could have been enough plowable snow by 3 am, I'm not sure. I only know for certain there wasn't much snow on the ground when I looked out at 6:30 am and I'm in the same area. A few inches at most.

Lucky had no reason to lie, and said he went down both sides of Fairview several times.

Thank you.
I'm all over the place trying to somewhat catch up on trial #1 watching those testimonies.
I have to check out TB...long overdue.
Do you know who "Paul" is?
He met with Lucky months before Proctor and YB did at a skating ring(?) went outside to were cars were so Lucky could verify what kind of vehicle he saw parked in front of 34 Fairview around 3 am.