MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #29 Retrial

[Soulmagent]

Disagree, if only because if the dog killed John all on her own, there's no need to cover it up. Wouldn't be a "murder". A civil liability case only.

I don't see BH being playful at all in the end with John. Chris Albert actually physically restrains him. John's smirking/laughing at Higgins, but Higgins looks very serious.

I don't think the dog did it alone. I can just see where that could of been a cause. The actions of the homeowners tease something more.

 

[rescuemom]

It slipped under the radar a bit, enough so that those who want KR convicted don't admit it (or recognize it), but the testimony of Whiffin the cw's phone expert gave clear phone evidence of JOK being IN THE HOUSE, and at the very time in question.

He testified the location data showed JOK headed generally in the direction of the house, followed by a 12 minute period (12:24-12:36) when there in NO LOCATION DATA. He further explained what causes no location data, and the very first thing on the list was ~*ahem*~ being INSIDE A BUILDING. Indeed.

That's the cw's expert's testimony as to what the evidence says.

Witness testimony (from MULTIPLE eyewitnesses) says the same thing, that JOK is not able to be seen outside at about the same 12:23-12:24, even though KR is seen outside, but alone in the car.

Combined with the ARCCA investigation and conclusions, that JOK could not have been hit by a vehicle to cause those injuries, it's clear that whatever happened to him must have occurred inside that house. As for the details of what that was, the failure to investigate inside the house has made that impossible to know. (But the subsequent actions and oft-shifting stories and various lies being told by those who were inside makes it clear something bad must have happened.)

Oh, and btw, at 12:36 when there is phone location data showing again, it showed location that was possible to still be in the house somewhere (Whiffin's testimony said that it was equally likely to have been at ANY SPECIFIC PLACE(s) within a broad circle that included both most of the house and the yard). As for whether JOK actually had control of that phone at that point, as well as earlier during the entire 12-minute interlude, no one can say.

The def has no real reason to focus on these points yet, but I suspect that in time they will be made crystal clear, and emphasized, for the benefit of the jury. Perhaps they will do that via one of their experts. But the evidence is already there.

Well said and I agree. Then why the big show from the CW hoping to ambush the defense that new evidence had come forward and IIRC would 'align' with Whiffen??? Much ado about nothing in the end. SMH.

 

[missy1974]

It slipped under the radar a bit, enough so that those who want KR convicted don't admit it (or recognize it), but the testimony of Whiffin the cw's phone expert gave clear phone evidence of JOK being IN THE HOUSE, and at the very time in question.

He testified the location data showed JOK headed generally in the direction of the house, followed by a 12 minute period (12:24-12:36) when there in NO LOCATION DATA. He further explained what causes no location data, and the very first thing on the list was ~*ahem*~ being INSIDE A BUILDING. Indeed.

That's the cw's expert's testimony as to what the evidence says.

Witness testimony (from MULTIPLE eyewitnesses) says the same thing, that JOK is not able to be seen outside at about the same 12:23-12:24, even though KR is seen outside, but alone in the car.

Combined with the ARCCA investigation and conclusions, that JOK could not have been hit by a vehicle to cause those injuries, it's clear that whatever happened to him must have occurred inside that house. As for the details of what that was, the failure to investigate inside the house has made that impossible to know. (But the subsequent actions and oft-shifting stories and various lies being told by those who were inside makes it clear something bad must have happened.)

Oh, and btw, at 12:36 when there is phone location data showing again, it showed location that was possible to still be in the house somewhere (Whiffin's testimony said that it was equally likely to have been at ANY SPECIFIC PLACE(s) within a broad circle that included both most of the house and the yard). As for whether JOK actually had control of that phone at that point, as well as earlier during the entire 12-minute interlude, no one can say.

The def has no real reason to focus on these points yet, but I suspect that in time they will be made crystal clear, and emphasized, for the benefit of the jury. Perhaps they will do that via one of their experts. But the evidence is already there.

I actually have a note about the this lol But slightly different...
12:25 - 12:37 lowest degree of accuracy on location of JOK's phone.

I was curious about the Waze program and assumed the location info was because Waze was no longer being used.

According to Whiffin, Waze was shut off 40-50 seconds before 12:25:30 .. so roughly 12:24:40-:50 according to Whiffen.
So, of course Brennan asked him the question that I wondered and assumed... the location for 12;25:30, the circle becomes larger, is that because the Waze app has been shut off? (I don't think Brennan was expecting the answer he got)
Whiffins answer: NO, Waze was requesting the data and his phone was responding to that request, it was never the Waze app itself.

So then of course.. you have to look for "reasons" why the location services would not be as good, reasons like entering a building/home, weather, etc. Considering they were able to map the road trip pretty good all along the way, if his phone was in the same spot for minutes outside in the car, there is no reason for the location to cover a bigger circle/area, unless of course, the phone moved.

Little things like this... are bigger if you catch them IMO Do I think the jury will? I don't know. They don't have the ability to listen over and over or pick it apart like we do. JMO

Around the 1:36:00-1:37:00 mark is the info about Waze.

 

[Soulmagent]

Do they have a concrete patio in the back of the house?

Yeah, they do . right where the pool used to be?

 

[Forest_Wood]

Yes

I guess you missed my point and didn't mean to offend anyone in Massachusetts. I wasn't referring to Mass and Ave used in the same sentence. The reference to AVE is any avenue usually referred to then as xxxx AVE and any location as somewhere MASS.

the witnesses mostly said they were from Canton Mass

 

[HarmonyE.]

Yeah, they do . right where the pool used to be?

No, the pool is still there.

There is a concrete pad in the yard, but it's not close to the bulkhead.

Photo from Zillow.

https://photos.zillowstatic.com/fp/dfef9ef40ab2bba840e6ff99d781c893-uncropped_scaled_within_1536_1152.webp

 

[Leilei]

Yeah, they do . right where the pool used to be?

The pool is still there, from what I've read.
IMO.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Yes

the witnesses mostly said they were from Canton Mass

Too many damn syllables in Massachusetts and it's not fun to type.

 

[PamCake]

Why do you imagine one of those three would not call an ambulance for John?

The way I see it is, if the "young one" was complicit in any pushing or shoving, it had to be covered up.

 

[Soulmagent]

The pool is still there, from what I've read.
IMO.

I Thought I saw , it was filled in and the house sold. 2 times since then.

 

[Malleeboy]

No back door. (real estate photos) And the back yard is completely fenced and gated so naughty Chloe girl couldn't get out and roam around the neighborhood. She was a biter and there are leash laws in the town.

There is a side gate on the flagpole side of the house.

 

[keek]

I guess you missed my point and didn't mean to offend anyone in Massachusetts. I wasn't referring to Mass and Ave used in the same sentence. The reference to AVE is any avenue usually referred to then as xxxx AVE and any location as somewhere MASS.

OH nooo I meant how funny that you noticed that and that we EVEN have the two combined as always referred to as MASS AVE. It's a MAJOR 'street' through Boston and some surrounding towns. BIGGG.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I Thought I saw , it was filled in and the house sold. 2 times since then.

Sold once. Pool was still there when the Alberts left and realtor made it a selling point. One of the other Albert brothers in Canton filled his pool in.

 

[PamCake]

Regional accents have always been interesting to me as to how they came about. A historical settling of the colonists and the mix of such as this country's settlers moved throughout....'sidebah' instead of sidebar and 'lawr' instead of law, a twist of letters. Also interesting to me as someone not from Massachusetts is the shortcut of 'ave' instead of avenue or 'Mass' instead of Massachusetts, just a thought...

Never thought of it but we've (there's a shawt version of have fo' ya) got lotsa funny ways of sayin' stuff in Mass, just like in otha pahts of the world.

 

[Leilei]

I Thought I saw , it was filled in and the house sold. 2 times since then.

I think that was BA's brother's house?
IMO.

 

[PamCake]

This definitely could have happened. Or, if they beat him up in the basement and he fell on a weight, I do believe they would have taken him out this way and not the front door. That long drag to the front of the house would have caused the grass stains on his pants . Probably knocked his shoe off too. His head maybe was bleeding from the fall, and then got onto whoever was dragging him clothing. Maybe the clothing was in the duffle bag that we saw BH with at the police station? Just my thoughts....

No clothing was missing from John. The clothing apparently was not attended to properly, having been left for weeks unprocessed.

 

[justwannahelp]

I've read so much, and listened to so much testimony regarding this case and have tried to imagine a scenario which explains so many of the mysteries surrounding it. I think I've come up with a framework to demonstrate some of the unknowns. The house at 34F had an old-fashioned bulkhead door leading into the basement, such as that pictured here (unrelated stock photo). The bulkhead at 34F is in the back yard, about 10' to the right of the front gate in the fence surrounding the property. I read or heard somewhere (sorry, can't find exactly where) that BA sometimes brought his dog outside via this exit/entry point when guests were in his home, as she was not amenable to strangers. These doors are extremely heavy and dense, and when they are opened, they stand up and often snap into the open position, making them stable (see example). I believe that, during the party, BA, BH, and CA might've gone outside together when Chloe was taken for a "potty break", maybe having a smoke break themselves. JOK, after exiting the car, heard the voices of the 3 men and headed into the back yard instead of the house. John, coming in through the gate, likely startled the dog, causing her to leap on him and attack. This attack could've caused the cut over his eye, as well as the abrasions on his arm. In the ensuing struggle with Chloe, John might've fallen or was pushed backwards into that heavy bulkhead door, causing the severe head wound. I imagine, in the chaos that followed, the men dragging a bloody and gravely wounded John into the cellar through that bulkhead door, spilling blood all down the short stairway and onto the cement there, and propping him up against the wall hoping to revive him. While in this position, JOK vomits from the trauma onto his jeans and underwear, which may have gotten stained and pulled down a bit during the dragging. They leave him there bleeding down the back of his clothing, while they discuss what they're going to do. During this occurrence, which lasted mere minutes, John probably dropped his phone outside in the snow, with none of the people missing it for a good amount of time. Eventually the phone would be called and called by JMc in order to locate it. I imagine the men finally bringing him outside using the Ford Edge to be found by the road as if he'd been hit by a plow, and placing the phone under him. NOBODY imagined Karen Read showing up at the crack of dawn and finding him…

That’s an interesting theory. Too bad they didn’t search the house.

 

[Spider92]

rsbm
he wasn't ambushed by a gang of conspirators in the basement... attacked by a dog... then dragged out into the snow to die, instantly, or kept in the basement for hours... while dozens of people kept silent or went along with the charade... with, again, absolutely nothing to actually indicate that happened.

...so you don't think BA sucker punched JOK, went upstairs to have a marital moment with his wife, and then went back downstairs to drag JOK out on to the front lawn?
Anyone know hos long to cook chicken in an air fryer?

 

[justwannahelp]

It slipped under the radar a bit, enough so that those who want KR convicted don't admit it (or recognize it), but the testimony of Whiffin the cw's phone expert gave clear phone evidence of JOK being IN THE HOUSE, and at the very time in question.

He testified the location data showed JOK headed generally in the direction of the house, followed by a 12 minute period (12:24-12:36) when there in NO LOCATION DATA. He further explained what causes no location data, and the very first thing on the list was ~*ahem*~ being INSIDE A BUILDING. Indeed.

That's the cw's expert's testimony as to what the evidence says.

Witness testimony (from MULTIPLE eyewitnesses) says the same thing, that JOK is not able to be seen outside at about the same 12:23-12:24, even though KR is seen outside, but alone in the car.

Combined with the ARCCA investigation and conclusions, that JOK could not have been hit by a vehicle to cause those injuries, it's clear that whatever happened to him must have occurred inside that house. As for the details of what that was, the failure to investigate inside the house has made that impossible to know. (But the subsequent actions and oft-shifting stories and various lies being told by those who were inside makes it clear something bad must have happened.)

Oh, and btw, at 12:36 when there is phone location data showing again, it showed location that was possible to still be in the house somewhere (Whiffin's testimony said that it was equally likely to have been at ANY SPECIFIC PLACE(s) within a broad circle that included both most of the house and the yard). As for whether JOK actually had control of that phone at that point, as well as earlier during the entire 12-minute interlude, no one can say.

The def has no real reason to focus on these points yet, but I suspect that in time they will be made crystal clear, and emphasized, for the benefit of the jury. Perhaps they will do that via one of their experts. But the evidence is already there.

BBM

And service is never good down in a basement…

 

[PamCake]

I disagree. I don't see JOK going around to the back of the house. He was not a frequent guest to the house. Is there a back door? KR was waiting in the car. And more importantly WHY did no one call for any kind of help for JOK??

It's my contention that John may have heard men's voices in the yard and he went toward them. The gate in the fence is directly adjacent to where Karen had parked the car, so it would've been easy to hear voices there. They probably didn't call for help if the juvenile with them was somehow complicit in the injury,