MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #31 Retrial

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Right, the car doesn't show the damage it would if it hit JO and also JO doesn't show the damage of being hit by the Lexus. JMOO
Agree,
The issue is the taillight evidence they are using- not if she hit him- imo.
Pros is using the taillight evidence to connect KRs car to JO- that is all they have there, and her temperament in the phone calls/texts afterwards, and the timeline.

Could she still be responsible? Yes. If we assume his phone locking up is when he stopped moving around normally- incapacitated- the timeline is too tight for it not to be near when she was leaving.
Either she bumped him, someone else bumped him, or he tripped and fell and hit his head.

What a horrible way to go

It seems tampering with evidence and also other ways he could have tripped and fallen and hit his head would create plenty of reasonable doubt. I wonder if all the press about dirty cops and her being framed and such doesn’t quite work in her favor with all jurors. The Defense really didn’t have a choice but to using the being framed story- because the taillight evidence doesn’t work.

IMO
 
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In turn, isn't the lead detective the cornerstone of the cw case? I would think the jury believes he is a very important part of the prosecution and they should hear from him, if he is alive. JMOO
I’m praying the judge doesn’t allow Proctor’s friends to read his texts. If the defense wants state of mind - let them call Proctor.
The defense can’t call him.
Why?
Proctor read Karen Reads text messages. They can’t open that can of worms

IMO
 
Proctor himself is definitely NOT the cornerstone of the def -- the def is based on the fact that an expert examination (by ARCCA, elite in the field) clearly proves the damage to the car/tail light are NOT possible via JOK at all, and the damage to JOK is not from a vehicle.

The presence of the tail light pieces must be due to someone tampering with the scene. They don't need Proctor himself - and in fact, he'd just deny it and make excuses - for the rampant sloppiness and inadequacy in investigating, in securing the scene from tampering, in keeping collected evidence properly where it can't be messed with or contaminated, and so on. They've already obtained lots and lots of testimony about all that.

Proctor testifying puts a face to the monster. Without that, its left to the jury's imagination. It's impossible to say who that helps.

They'll still flesh out his incredibly bad texts via those he texted with, showing extreme bias and a primary central investigator out to get KR, making it clear that IF he didnt do it personally, he would very likely have looked the other way to let others do so.

Personally, I've thought that the failure to call Proctor was a mistake by the cw. Without him they have no actual explainer for his misdeeds that were significant enough to get him fired. And the def can (and has, and will continue to) otherwise get his misdeeds into the jury's presence, with the jury left aware that the cw is hiding him even though he built THEIR case. Not good.

3.1. The Importance of the Chain of Custody​


The chain of custody demonstrates the integrity of an item of evidence [34,35,36]. A paper trail should be maintained so that the individuals who supervised the preservation of evidence at any given time can be recognized and summoned to testify at trial if the need arises. As highlighted in a study by Jaffe and colleagues, a chain of custody control of evidence must be established whenever an object is presented as evidence [37,38]. Otherwise, the evidence may be considered inadmissible, casting serious doubts on its authenticity/integrity (also considering the possibility of adulteration and contamination of the sample) and on the tests carried out on them such as, for example, toxicological or histological tests [39,40], in usual or unusual, or “alternative”, matrices [41,42]. Proper chain of custody has been a crucial factor in high-profile cases, such as the 1994 murder trial of former pro football star O.J. Simpson [1,43].


The chain of custody must contain and document every transmission of the object from person to person since the seizure. The goal is to establish that the evidence is related to the alleged crime, was collected at the scene, and was in its original/unaltered condition rather than having been tampered with or otherwise polluted [1]. To convict a defendant of a crime, the evidence against him or her must have been meticulously handled to avoid tampering or contamination.


The traceability of the registration of the control, of the transfer, and of the analysis of the samples indicates the transparency of the procedure [44]. Maintaining the chain of custody is critical in forensic practice. Indeed, chain of custody documentation should be complete with information regarding the circumstances of the collection of evidence, the conditions of custody during the handling and/or retention of evidence, and how evidence is handed over to subsequent custodians each time that a transfer occurs (together with the signs of the people involved in the respective phase).
Oh yeah Boom!!! BAM!!!!!
 
I wasn’t assuming- I just stated my point of view at that moment in time. Of course we don’t know what the defense will do- they barely got started. Probably a week or two left.

The KR trial is one part of the case. If she is found guilty they will stop trying to find a cause or blame. There will be appeals and such and likely tampering with evidence.
If she is found No Guilty- JOs manner of death isn’t wrapped up. So questions remain.

Timeline is tight- if we assume JO phone lock is near the time of his last movement then we must say that something happened to JO right near that time. If it did it happened between the time KR pulled up to the Fairview house and she left the Fairview house.
I’d like to hear all the different interpretations of what JO’s phone lock could mean and not mean.

IMO there is already plenty of info to support reasonable doubt, she should be found Not guilty.
But… I think it is because of the physical evidence being used to prosecute her.

Physical evidence- tail light and autopsy- This to me creates huge reasonable doubt, it doesn’t work so the timeline doesn’t matter. I can’t see how she could have backed up and hit a glancing blow on a person hard enough to shatter a tail light and only put scratches on his arm.

So what could have happened to JO? Given the time line it is still possible that KR knocked him down, or he tripped, and he fell hit his head and broke the glass. Incapacitated he moved around in the glass and cut up his arm- this is in line with the timeline and the autopsy.

IMO— hoping to get to see ARCCA present crash reconstruction evidence

"So what could have happened to JO?" - I think he went in the house, around 12:24 more or less, based on the testimony presented by the cw's own witnesses, and supported strongly by the GPS data testimony presented by the cw expert. And then something happened there.

I don't think activity with his phone after that point was necessarily anything JOK himself did. While the GPS after 12:36 allows the phone to have been back outside, it also allows it to have been in the house with equal likelihood, per cw expert, and more importantly I have no confidence that JOK and his phone were necessarily together.

Accepting he did go in the house, when did he come out and how did he end up where he did? No idea on when, in fact no way to know at what point he deceased and at what point his phone may have been separated from him. How did his body get there? It would seem likely that a person or persons in the house placed him there, with work on how to explain it away beginning much earlier.

The cw has not offered ANYTHING that can contradict any of the above BARD (in fact, it's based mostly on their witnesses' testimony in this trial), so that's where I am so far. The fact that the cw focused on the wrong person, to the exclusion of all other possibilities, makes it hard to see any BARD alternative to date, but I do hope for the memory of JOK that in time someone in LE will see that they need to look harder and better for the answer, since "hit by a vehicle" was simply not a possible explanation.
 
This is trial 2
Anything John was holding or on his person would travel at the same velocity as John after being swiped/clipped

IMO

Not so- yes if his arm is holding a drink inside a moving car going 60mph, then the drink and his entire body is traveling 60mph.

But- if he is clipped his body isn’t traveling together at a single velocity. If his hand is hit- his head or body or legs would not be traveling the same speed as his impacted arm. His body and head may not be traveling at all. An object in his hand would react to how his arm is hit- many velocities would occur at different times.
All of his body travels together with object he is holding- at one single velocity only if you measure velocity after the entire body with object has been lifted and is flying together- a projectile.
It’s physics- you can math it out.

IMO
 
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"So what could have happened to JO?" - I think he went in the house, around 12:24 more or less, based on the testimony presented by the cw's own witnesses, and supported strongly by the GPS data testimony presented by the cw expert. And then something happened there.

I don't think activity with his phone after that point was necessarily anything JOK himself did. While the GPS after 12:36 allows the phone to have been back outside, it also allows it to have been in the house with equal likelihood, per cw expert, and more importantly I have no confidence that JOK and his phone were necessarily together.

Accepting he did go in the house, when did he come out and how did he end up where he did? No idea on when, in fact no way to know at what point he deceased and at what point his phone may have been separated from him. How did his body get there? It would seem likely that a person or persons in the house placed him there, with work on how to explain it away beginning much earlier.

The cw has not offered ANYTHING that can contradict any of the above BARD (in fact, it's based mostly on their witnesses' testimony in this trial), so that's where I am so far. The fact that the cw focused on the wrong person, to the exclusion of all other possibilities, makes it hard to see any BARD alternative to date, but I do hope for the memory of JOK that in time someone in LE will see that they need to look harder and better for the answer, since "hit by a vehicle" was simply not a possible explanation.

I would buy that the cops banded together to frame KR to coverup a murder the committed if I could see a motive for that murder. I don’t. Did he uncover some corruption he was intending to share with higher ups? I’ve not heard a motive.
If he was killed in the house- how was he killed? Still we have fractured skull- an impact from the back as per the autopsy. To me the autopsy doesn’t support attack by dog or fist fight.

The injuries I saw and heard described do not look like fist fight injuries. The marks on his arm don’t look like dog bites- they are not even in the location typical of defensive wounds.
His eyes being swollen resulted from the fracture of the back of his head- they don’t look like fist hits at all- skin isn’t torn up around his eyes. And- the single cut is above his right eye which is consistent with the arm injuries. Most people are right handed- his left side of his face should be tore up if those injuries are a fist fight. His face isn’t tore up.
The Prosecution should have asked these questions of the ME- she likely has done cases of dog bite and cases of head injury by being beaten up.

So he was pushed and fell and hit his head in the house? Someone else bumped him with their car and they had to cover that up? I do think the cops tried to make the case against KR solid by planting the taillight evidence- and it doesn’t work. Why would they do that- to stop the questions of why a guy was found dead in the yard of a cop.
IMO she should get off- there is plenty of reasonable doubt- but to me it doesn’t mean that someone killed him in the house that kicked off a huge coverup.

IMO
 
Not so- yes if his arm is holding a drink inside a moving car going 60mph, then the drink and his entire body is traveling 60mph.

But- if he is clipped his body isn’t traveling together at a single velocity. If his hand is hit- his head or body or legs would not be traveling the same speed as his impacted arm. His body and head may not be traveling at all. An object in his hand would react to how his arm is hit- many velocities would occur at different times.
All of his body travels together with object he is holding- at one single speed only if you measure velocity after the entire body with object has been lifted and is flying together- a projectile.

IMO
they have all this phone data- did he have fall detection turned off so the phone would not record him going down? have not watched these two trials in entirety but I do not recall this being discussed.
 
I would buy that the cops banded together to frame KR to coverup a murder the committed if I could see a motive for that murder. I don’t. Did he uncover some corruption he was intending to share with higher ups? I’ve not heard a motive.
If he was killed in the house- how was he killed? Still we have fractured skull- an impact from the back as per the autopsy. To me the autopsy doesn’t support attack by dog or fist fight.

The injuries I saw and heard described do not look like fist fight injuries. The marks on his arm don’t look like dog bites- they are not even in the location typical of defensive wounds.
His eyes being swollen resulted from the fracture of the back of his head- they don’t look like fist hits at all- skin isn’t torn up around his eyes. And- the single cut is above his right eye which is consistent with the arm injuries. Most people are right handed- his left side of his face should be tore up if those injuries are a fist fight. His face isn’t tore up.
The Prosecution should have asked these questions of the ME- she likely has done cases of dog bite and cases of head injury by being beaten up.

So he was pushed and fell and hit his head in the house? Someone else bumped him with their car and they had to cover that up? I do think the cops tried to make the case against KR solid by planting the taillight evidence- and it doesn’t work. Why would they do that- to stop the questions of why a guy was found dead in the yard of a cop.
IMO she should get off- there is plenty of reasonable doubt- but to me it doesn’t mean that someone killed him in the house that kicked off a huge coverup.

IMO
IMO Beyond a Reasonable Doubt doesn’t mean beyond ALL doubt. Jurors needn’t park the common sense at the door of the deliberation room.
 
they have all this phone data- did he have fall detection turned off so the phone would not record him going down? have not watched these two trials in entirety but I do not recall this being discussed.

I know a few years ago the fall detection on iPhones was very sensitive- it would trigger when it wasn’t a fall. When they first put it in it would auto call 911.
I’ve not heard them discuss this- but Apple at some point did put out a patch and I’m pretty sure you can turn the fall detection off.
Crazy to think the car didn’t register an impact, some call 911 for you.

IMO
 
IMO Beyond a Reasonable Doubt doesn’t mean beyond ALL doubt. Jurors needn’t park the common sense at the door of the deliberation room.
Of course not, I’ve been a juror before- not murder case. Common sense of a prudent person is what you hope jurors use.

KR’s trial result Guilty or Not Guilty will not answer the question- what happened to JO? It will only show if KR will be held legally responsible.
I’m also trying to figure out what likely could have happened.

IMO
 
I know a few years ago the fall detection on iPhones was very sensitive- it would trigger when it wasn’t a fall. When they first put it in it would auto call 911.
I’ve not heard them discuss this- but Apple at some point did put out a patch and I’m pretty sure you can turn the fall detection off.
Crazy to think the car didn’t register an impact, some call 911 for you.

IMO
believe it is adjustable- you would not want EMTs if you dropped the phone

Intro to Health data on iPhone



1748749910713.webp
Apple Support
https://support.apple.com › guide › iphone › ios


Did he have the watch too? I kind of assume no data because I have not heard of testimony on it, but...


A history of hard falls (Apple Watch SE and Apple Watch Series 4 and later): In the Other Data category, you can view details about the number of times fallen.

1748749807969.webp

Use Fall Detection with Apple Watch​

1748749807980.webp
Apple Support
https://support.apple.com › en-asia




Use Fall Detection with Apple Watch. If Apple Watch detects a hard fall, it can help connect you to emergency services if needed.
 
I would buy that the cops banded together to frame KR to coverup a murder the committed if I could see a motive for that murder. I don’t. Did he uncover some corruption he was intending to share with higher ups? I’ve not heard a motive.
If he was killed in the house- how was he killed? Still we have fractured skull- an impact from the back as per the autopsy. To me the autopsy doesn’t support attack by dog or fist fight.

The injuries I saw and heard described do not look like fist fight injuries. The marks on his arm don’t look like dog bites- they are not even in the location typical of defensive wounds.
His eyes being swollen resulted from the fracture of the back of his head- they don’t look like fist hits at all- skin isn’t torn up around his eyes. And- the single cut is above his right eye which is consistent with the arm injuries. Most people are right handed- his left side of his face should be tore up if those injuries are a fist fight. His face isn’t tore up.
The Prosecution should have asked these questions of the ME- she likely has done cases of dog bite and cases of head injury by being beaten up.

So he was pushed and fell and hit his head in the house? Someone else bumped him with their car and they had to cover that up? I do think the cops tried to make the case against KR solid by planting the taillight evidence- and it doesn’t work. Why would they do that- to stop the questions of why a guy was found dead in the yard of a cop.
IMO she should get off- there is plenty of reasonable doubt- but to me it doesn’t mean that someone killed him in the house that kicked off a huge coverup.

IMO
BBM
"The judge overseeing the KR case allowed a dog bite expert hired by Read’s defense to testify at her second trial, and blocked key testimony from an expert hired by prosecutors in a series of orders issued Thursday."

"Former police Lt. Garrett Wing will be allowed to testify that injuries sustained by Read’s boyfriend, John O’Keefe, were consistent with a dog attack. Judge Beverly Cannone wrote in a brief order that Wing “appears to be qualified by experience to provide some help to the jury on some issues in dispute.”

 
But JM is not the defendant who changed her story of not seeing John go in the house to a detailed account of seeing him go inside the house...along with creating a defense centered on blaming LE, on duty and off-duty, for everything that happened to JO. All that occurring after KR's arrest. AJMO

Exactly- it is possible that LE did try to pin it more solidly on KR with the tail light evidence, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t bump him with her car. Nor does it mean LE killed him themselves and tried to frame her for a murder they committed.
I’m coming into this case late- only in the last week or so. I’ve not watched all the press coverage or circus that seems to be taking place. I have no pony in the race,
I’m interested in seeing how the science/math evidence is presented.

It is clear that there are strong sides- those for and against. Many posts here show clear bias because a side has been chosen. Which is fine- but tough to be objective about what is good science if you want you side to win.

IMO
 
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I’m praying the judge doesn’t allow Proctor’s friends to read his texts. If the defense wants state of mind - let them call Proctor.
The defense can’t call him.
Why?
Proctor read Karen Reads text messages. They can’t open that can of worms

IMO
BBM
No one, yes no one should see his texts. Let alone the fact that he should have never texted in the first place. Even the Governor was disgusted with Proctor.

 
"So what could have happened to JO?" - I think he went in the house, around 12:24 more or less, based on the testimony presented by the cw's own witnesses, and supported strongly by the GPS data testimony presented by the cw expert. And then something happened there.

I don't think activity with his phone after that point was necessarily anything JOK himself did. While the GPS after 12:36 allows the phone to have been back outside, it also allows it to have been in the house with equal likelihood, per cw expert, and more importantly I have no confidence that JOK and his phone were necessarily together.

Accepting he did go in the house, when did he come out and how did he end up where he did? No idea on when, in fact no way to know at what point he deceased and at what point his phone may have been separated from him. How did his body get there? It would seem likely that a person or persons in the house placed him there, with work on how to explain it away beginning much earlier.

The cw has not offered ANYTHING that can contradict any of the above BARD (in fact, it's based mostly on their witnesses' testimony in this trial), so that's where I am so far. The fact that the cw focused on the wrong person, to the exclusion of all other possibilities, makes it hard to see any BARD alternative to date, but I do hope for the memory of JOK that in time someone in LE will see that they need to look harder and better for the answer, since "hit by a vehicle" was simply not a possible explanation.

Scooch over SteveS, I'm right there with you. Great post!
 
believe it is adjustable- you would not want EMTs if you dropped the phone

Intro to Health data on iPhone



View attachment 590433
Apple Support
https://support.apple.com › guide › iphone › ios


Did he have the watch too? I kind of assume no data because I have not heard of testimony on it, but...


A history of hard falls (Apple Watch SE and Apple Watch Series 4 and later): In the Other Data category, you can view details about the number of times fallen.

View attachment 590431

Use Fall Detection with Apple Watch

View attachment 590432
Apple Support
https://support.apple.com › en-asia




Use Fall Detection with Apple Watch. If Apple Watch detects a hard fall, it can help connect you to emergency services if needed.

The issue I read about was when the 14 came out with Crash Detection. 911 called automatically when a phone was carried on a rollercoaster and speed up very fast and then stop suddenly.
It wasn’t happening when a phone was dropped, as it wasn’t meant for falling down. They were coded to pick up a huge change in speed that would be similar to a car driving and then suddenly stop.
Lots of articles out there about this happening in 2022

IMO
 
BBM
"The judge overseeing the KR case allowed a dog bite expert hired by Read’s defense to testify at her second trial, and blocked key testimony from an expert hired by prosecutors in a series of orders issued Thursday."

"Former police Lt. Garrett Wing will be allowed to testify that injuries sustained by Read’s boyfriend, John O’Keefe, were consistent with a dog attack. Judge Beverly Cannone wrote in a brief order that Wing “appears to be qualified by experience to provide some help to the jury on some issues in dispute.”


I listened to a ‘dog bite expert’ say she thought those injuries were from a dog bite. Then she was asked if she looked at the dog in question and she said No. She said they weren’t necessary to know those were dog bites.
Hmm, I’ve seen cases where bite evidence was presented and while it isn’t a well founded science they always take molds or measurements of the human biter’s mouth. This expert think that was necessary?
Dog bites don’t just scrape across the surface- dogs are fast, they bite down and pinch the skin and bruise it up. He didnt have a thick jacket on- only a tshirt and hoodie. This dog Chloe was a German Shepherd that had been in fights. It would not have been gentle if it had bit him. I’m no expert but I don’t think those looked like dog bites at all.

The locations of the bites are not in a place where the arm was used for self defense. The locations on the outside of the arm and not under side of the lower arm don’t make sense.

I think the dog bite idea may sway some jurors for reasonable doubt- I think it is stretching.

IMO
 
I listened to a ‘dog bite expert’ say she thought those injuries were from a dog bite. Then she was asked if she looked at the dog in question and she said No. She said they weren’t necessary to know those were dog bites.
Hmm, I’ve seen cases where bite evidence was presented and while it isn’t a well founded science they always take molds or measurements of the human biter’s mouth. This expert think that was necessary?
Dog bites don’t just scrape across the surface- dogs are fast, they bite down and pinch the skin and bruise it up. He didnt have a thick jacket on- only a tshirt and hoodie. This dog Chloe was a German Shepherd that had been in fights. It would not have been gentle if it had bit him. I’m no expert but I don’t think those looked like dog bites at all.

The locations of the bites are not in a place where the arm was used for self defense. The locations on the outside of the arm and not under side of the lower arm don’t make sense.

I think the dog bite idea may sway some jurors for reasonable doubt- I think it is stretching.

IMO


Have you tried googling pictures of dog bites on a person‘s arm? They look very similar OJO’s injuries. I wouldn’t rule that out if you haven’t researched what they look like.
 
Exactly- it is possible that LE did try to pin it more solidly on KR with the tail light evidence, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t bump him with her car. Nor does it mean LE killed him themselves and tried to frame her for a murder they committed.
I’m coming into this case late- only in the last week or so. I’ve not watched all the press coverage or circus that seems to be taking place. I have no pony in the race, I want to see how the science/math evidence is presented in this case.

It is clear that there are strong sides- those for and against. Many posts here show clear bias because a side has been chosen.

IMO

My strong takeaway from the testimony so far is that he went in the house. From there, I only see inferences, and enough to make me think his demise must have happened in there. But all we know is he was found later on the lawn, dead.

But because none of that home or those people were given even the tiniest of investigation, I agree we don't have enough to pick a likely cause of his demise, or who did it or why.

The fact he could NOT have been hit by a vehicle forces us to know there has to be another answer for what we do see (JOK on the lawn with tail light pieces appearing there at some point or points in time). Even if we don't have proof, we know someone did something.

There's no blood on the lawn or clothes to speak of, despite injuries that hint at a lot of bleeding. Where did it go, outer space? If we look at possibilities nearby, how about a basement floor that no investigator ever even tried to see, and a bulkhead door that opened not far from where he was found??

Long ago (T1 days) I was one of the first to suggest that MAYBE it was just a freak accident involving a walk down the stairs and an unplanned attack by the dog and a fall backwards that cracked his head open and he died, with no one intending it. Or maybe there was an argument over KR with swings taken, and the dog jumped in to defend its master and uh-oh JOK is dead and now what? From which the others in the house panicked over the possibility of a major wrongful-death lawsuit and decided to put him on the lawn and try to explain it away. One thing led to another. Or maybe a less innocent scenario, in which that angry interaction over KR led someone to drunkenly, stupidly pick up a small dumbbell and whack JOK in the back of the head, and he fell dead, and now what do we do?

So the "motive" could be no thought-out motive at all. A dog that got out of control, or a drunk who did something very very stupid. Not planned. But led people to do all they could to make it look like something else.

Note that the only expert testimony we've had about the arm injuries themselves and what caused them is that it was from a dog. Those are still ahead in T2, but these are experienced people who are qualified to speak ...and cw witnesses do NOT dispute that it could have been caused by a dog.

Are those resulting narratives largely speculative? Sure. But EVERY possibility is largely speculative - tying together just a few facts here and there that give a hint of uninvestigated possibilities - once you have to eliminate KRs vehicle as the cause due to the science of how things move and the results of impact forces. And JOK could not have been hot by a vehicle to cause his injuries, that is a fact.
 
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