MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #31 Retrial

[missy1974]

phewwwwww finally caught up LOL geesh, you all were busy today for a Sunday LOL

I appreciate all perspectives on this case, I seem to learn something "new" every day!

I hope that if anyone is lurking, you feel that you can post your opinion/thoughts whenever you want! It is not the norm for the majority of posters in a thread to not side with the prosecution, but I think this is a unique case.

Oh, and crash test dummies... I simple search for pedestrian crash test dummies brings up more then enough links for me to believe that it is and was possible. This one caught my eye because it said 1998. I don't think this is a new concept, that is almost 30 years ago.

@AngTxGal ~ I'm with you... if he could use one to show falling back, he could use one to see what would happen if it was backed into. His reasoning does not make sense. It reminded me of when I told my kids when they were young to not run with their hands in their pockets so they didn't fall on their face/head. JMO

In 1998, Honda developed a pedestrian crash test dummy to reproduce the human body's kinematics during vehicle-pedestrian collisions, with the aim of identifying the parts of the car body most often involved in the infliction of injuries, and developing safety technologies to protect pedestrians from head injuries in traffic accidents

Honda Develops a 2nd Generation Crash Test Pedestrian Dummy With Injury-Level Measurement Capability | Honda Global Corporate Website

Honda Global | Honda Develops a 2nd Generation Crash Test Pedestrian Dummy With Injury-Level Measurement Capability

global.honda

 

[missy1974]

Yep! It was in Proctor's possession at that time.

Not that I don't think that is possible.. but I don't "know" that from any testimony that I can recall.

I can't go back into all that testimony to find when and where it was logged, chain of custody (which they most likely do not have lol)

But thanks for the clip, I didn't remember that at all.

 

[Warwick7]

Not that I don't think that is possible.. but I don't "know" that from any testimony that I can recall.

I can't go back into all that testimony to find when and where it was logged, chain of custody (which they most likely do not have lol)

But thanks for the clip, I didn't remember that at all.

When I first watched this I about fell off my chair...

 

[TDoc72]

Question for you

Did the dog bite only on one side of your arm? Or did the top teeth catch one side while the bottom teeth catch the other side of the arm?
Where are the matching teeth from the other jaw on JO’s arm? It looks to me like he rolled in glass on the outside of his arm.

Did you have a series of bites up and down one side if your arm without any bites from the opposing jaw on the other side? Highly unlikely

Thoughts?

IMO

I think it looks like dog scratches more than bites.

I can think of biological reasons that explain the blood on clothes.

Blunt force trauma leading to seizures.
If his body was convulsing due to brain bleed- it would be like a bleeding stroke. Seizures could result. If he had seizures he was moving around while bleeding. If he had seizures he was building up body heat that could prevent what we imagine as a completely still body with thin clothing being covered with snow.

My dad had a stroke and began to have seizures- huge grand mal seizures where he vomited. It was scary to watch. Dad was 6’7” and weighed 225 or so. One time he seized repeatedly and they could not stop them- he was put in a medically induced coma until they could get them under control. Long story- but seizures would be consistent with the injuries and would move blood all over the place.

IMO

I don’t doubt he vomited or bled. But if he was hit by her car then fell down flat, the blood and vomit should be mostly near his head and on the ground beside his head. But it’s not. It’s down the front of his clothes, both short and pants. And I can’t find a reason for that. If he was flat, how did it go down?

Why didn’t Welcher use a crash test dummy and make a Lexus in reverse hit it? Then we could see what happens to a body at different speeds.

Welcher didn’t do this test- he explained that if the angle was slightly off you would get very different results.
But- he claims to know that the arm could shatter the taillight. It is math of forces and angles- he should be able to model something similar. Why didn’t he? I think it is because he couldn’t. It wouldn’t work.

IMO

I’m still mad about his stupid paint test. He should’ve put blue paint along the entire height of the car. I think he didn’t because it would’ve showed paint on his pants. I think someone hit would’ve had injuries to the lower body and JOK didn’t.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Yeah, I agree body temp should have fallen quicker, in a blizzard, on the cold ground, without a coat. When they described rendering aid- chest compressions and rescue breaths I said? What?
And then EMTs intubated and put him on a ventilator.
I was shocked he had been out in a blizzard that long and was alive and not frozen!

I didn’t know the temp outside- but we know it was January, near Boston, at night, the sun goes down early, and a blizzard!

I’ll have to see how the body temp was presented- if they say lower than 80, or if they say measured at 80 degrees F. And how was it measured?
Core temp is used to determine time of death, and measurement happens using a thermometer into a deceased person’s liver. He was alive when found, so how was it measured?
Comparing an alive person’s body temp with a deceased person’s to find time of death are very different. Here we are talking about 5 hours- so it is well beyond the time that should have killed him. So you would then ask how on earth could still be alive?

And… JM did a search to find out how long it would take. So if she read the results she would have known JO’s alive and unfrozen body she was seeing near 6AM, doing chest compressions on could not have been outside exposed the entire time since she last text him when the SUV was in front of the house.

Hmmm- that is some pretty incriminating evidence and food for thought!

Great points! And just the kind of evidence that makes me think! Thank you for your time here!
IMO

BBM:

JOK was deceased when found.

"He was alive when found, so how was it measured?"

 

[cocomod]

John's arm.

The expert evidence was completely credible, IMO. I see no evidence that he doesn't know his physics, as I have already said.

And yes I would expect an arm to impact the light extensively, at the speeds he referenced, it wasn't just an elbow, it was a whole arm, in all the places he had lacerations, as demonstrated by the paint transfer.

Welcher didn't expect a sideswipe impact at the rear to deploy airbags, or register as a collision. There were multiple scratches, one on the rear quarter panel, one on the hatch, and a dent also on the hatch.

MOO where applicable

He didn’t test to see if the arm would break the light. He doesn’t know. There is only opinion, and not scientific backing for that information.

 

[SteveS]

Additionally, ARCCA also engaged in deleted chats with the defence, and messaging by encrypted app, Signal.

MSM Link from Voir Dire of Dr Wolfe, ARCCA: MSN

"As Brennan continued to press Wolfe about his communications with defense, Wolfe admitted to deleting text exchanges with Read’s lawyers."

"Wolfe said the only person he texted on the defense team was Jackson. He confirmed he had communicated with the defense on other platforms, like Signal, an encrypted messaging app.

“It keeps no record of the communication,” Brennan said of Signal.

Wolfe said he hadn’t used the app in communicating with anyone else."

This was and is a big nothing burger even though Brennan wanted to make it into something shady. As it turned out (by ALL the testimony and evidence that was given in the voir dire), ALL the texts and messages (of which there were only about 100 iirc, over the span of several months) were related to the necessary scheduling and travel for a trial whose schedule was fluid.

ARCCA's client was the feds, not the def, and ARCCA's work was solely supervised and guided by the feds and not at all by the def, according to ALL the testimony presented. ARCCA's only real interaction with the def was about the logistics of presenting their work to the court. Brennan tried to make it into something it was not, being dramatic over ideas he invented out of thin air but with no actual evidence whatsoever (so much so, having NO actual evidence and it being a pure fishing expedition, that there should never have been a voir dire in the first place without something solid to start from, but JudgeB is gonna JudgeB).

The use of Signal was another nothing burger. So what? Signal is just a way to communicate. Just a Brennan red herring, trying to make that into something it wasn't. ARCCA used it because they were asked to, no biggie.

Fact is, there was no reason (nor legal need) to keep ANY texts or other communication, and particularly of mundane things, But in his desperation to get ARCCA out of this case (because their testimony for the def is so compelling), Brennan lied to the court to claim there was a requirement, which was shot down by Alessi on the spot who cited the statute itself to show Brennan was lying. (Did JudgeB get upset at Brennan for lying to the court? Did she reprimand him at all? No to both. She should have, but as we all know, JudgeB is gonna JudgeB.)

 

[Warwick7]

Hmmmm now isn't this interesting. An article on Matt McCabe. I think it’s entirely possible he would know a work around to make a search disappear and unrecoverable and not leave a trace.in M00.

Canton man helps partnership grow at the speed of cyberspace technology

South Shore entrepreneurs, including a Canton man, catapult Elevate Technology Services into one of the nation's fastest growing IT services companies.

www.wickedlocal.com

 

[Warwick7]

Ya know with all the angry texts/calls from KR to JO. Well...we’ve all been there, when the relationship is ending...or run its course. When we felt unappreciated, with very little value. Well, guess what? I’ve sent many I wouldn’t want publicized, yet I didn’t run anyone over.

 

[missy1974]

This was and is a big nothing burger even though Brennan wanted to make it into something shady. As it turned out (by ALL the testimony and evidence that was given in the voir dire), ALL the texts and messages (of which there were only about 100 iirc, over the span of several months) were related to the necessary scheduling and travel for a trial whose schedule was fluid.

ARCCA's client was the feds, not the def, and ARCCA's work was solely supervised and guided by the feds and not at all by the def, according to ALL the testimony presented. ARCCA's only real interaction with the def was about the logistics of presenting their work to the court. Brennan tried to make it into something it was not, being dramatic over ideas he invented out of thin air but with no actual evidence whatsoever (so much so, having NO actual evidence and it being a pure fishing expedition, that there should never have been a voir dire in the first place without something solid to start from, but JudgeB is gonna JudgeB).

The use of Signal was another nothing burger. So what? Signal is just a way to communicate. Just a Brennan red herring, trying to make that into something it wasn't. ARCCA used it because they were asked to, no biggie.

Fact is, there was no reason (nor legal need) to keep ANY texts or other communication, and particularly of mundane things, But in his desperation to get ARCCA out of this case (because their testimony for the def is so compelling), Brennan lied to the court to claim there was a requirement, which was shot down by Alessi on the spot who cited the statute itself to show Brennan was lying. (Did JudgeB get upset at Brennan for lying to the court? Did she reprimand him at all? No to both. She should have, but as we all know, JudgeB is gonna JudgeB.)

I will add to this, not only did Brennan not want them to present the tests they did while contracted by DOJ, he didn't want them to be able to respond to Welcher's experiments, including the "blue paint" one

I'm a fan of the ARCCA guys... they did their tests, they were not allowed by the DOJ to do anything more for the defense last year, and I believe they were truly non-biased for either side. This trial, they were allowed to do more, so it should be interesting testimony.

I have read that this jury is "younger" than last years jury. I don't know what that means haha I have no idea how young/old the jury was last year. BUT, if they are younger, using apps like Signal, snap, etc, is definitely not unheard of nowadays, it is just the way it is. JMO

 

[jepop]

This was and is a big nothing burger even though Brennan wanted to make it into something shady. As it turned out (by ALL the testimony and evidence that was given in the voir dire), ALL the texts and messages (of which there were only about 100 iirc, over the span of several months) were related to the necessary scheduling and travel for a trial whose schedule was fluid.

ARCCA's client was the feds, not the def, and ARCCA's work was solely supervised and guided by the feds and not at all by the def, according to ALL the testimony presented. ARCCA's only real interaction with the def was about the logistics of presenting their work to the court. Brennan tried to make it into something it was not, being dramatic over ideas he invented out of thin air but with no actual evidence whatsoever (so much so, having NO actual evidence and it being a pure fishing expedition, that there should never have been a voir dire in the first place without something solid to start from, but JudgeB is gonna JudgeB).

The use of Signal was another nothing burger. So what? Signal is just a way to communicate. Just a Brennan red herring, trying to make that into something it wasn't. ARCCA used it because they were asked to, no biggie.

Fact is, there was no reason (nor legal need) to keep ANY texts or other communication, and particularly of mundane things, But in his desperation to get ARCCA out of this case (because their testimony for the def is so compelling), Brennan lied to the court to claim there was a requirement, which was shot down by Alessi on the spot who cited the statute itself to show Brennan was lying. (Did JudgeB get upset at Brennan for lying to the court? Did she reprimand him at all? No to both. She should have, but as we all know, JudgeB is gonna JudgeB.)

Yes, @SteveS. 100%. Brennan was desperate to keep ARCCA out. The judge made the ruling for the defense but first she asked that nonsensical question to Alessi, to which he answered accurately that the statute she cited was irrelevant. Completely non-applicable. This was a truly absurd moment Imo. Cannone then cut Alessi off and sourly told him he need not continue as she was granting the defense a 'win'. Her resentment was blatantly unhidden and apparent in her tone. Some judge. Jmo

 

[Odeto BJ]

ok .. I just listened to that clip.. he says he found deleted data FROM April 2022. Which means the phone was on at that point and someone must have deleted it. I don't recall his testimony from Trial 1, I might have to go back and listen.

Does the defense have an iphone witness? I thought they did... will have to wait to see if it comes up.

JMO

from:Karen Read trial live updates: State police investigator recalls interview with Read

"She provided contact information for some people who were present the night before, and then Bukhenik told her they would be seizing her SUV and her cell phone as evidence."

So MSP took the cell phone the same day they towed the Lexus from her parent's driveway. Not clear from this article who took possession at that time but we know Proctor was going through it in March because some of his texts reflect access to it....as in "Haven't found any nudes..."

 

[Odeto BJ]

Anyone seen a document or otherwise that indicated the VIN on KR's Lexus?
I would like to drill back and check out its trim level/ options/ build sheet...some levels indicate LED tail light bulbs and others show Incandescents....makes a difference in terms of analysing the vid from 1 Meadows.

 

[missy1974]

Anyone seen a document or otherwise that indicated the VIN on KR's Lexus?
I would like to drill back and check out its trim level/ options/ build sheet...some levels indicate LED tail light bulbs and others show Incandescents....makes a difference in terms of analysing the vid from 1 Meadows.

I do not, but I do have something that I will send to you in a message, I am just not sure if I can share it, it's a google drive doc, someone who did some extensive research on it.

 

[cocomod]

This was and is a big nothing burger even though Brennan wanted to make it into something shady. As it turned out (by ALL the testimony and evidence that was given in the voir dire), ALL the texts and messages (of which there were only about 100 iirc, over the span of several months) were related to the necessary scheduling and travel for a trial whose schedule was fluid.

ARCCA's client was the feds, not the def, and ARCCA's work was solely supervised and guided by the feds and not at all by the def, according to ALL the testimony presented. ARCCA's only real interaction with the def was about the logistics of presenting their work to the court. Brennan tried to make it into something it was not, being dramatic over ideas he invented out of thin air but with no actual evidence whatsoever (so much so, having NO actual evidence and it being a pure fishing expedition, that there should never have been a voir dire in the first place without something solid to start from, but JudgeB is gonna JudgeB).

The use of Signal was another nothing burger. So what? Signal is just a way to communicate. Just a Brennan red herring, trying to make that into something it wasn't. ARCCA used it because they were asked to, no biggie.

Fact is, there was no reason (nor legal need) to keep ANY texts or other communication, and particularly of mundane things, But in his desperation to get ARCCA out of this case (because their testimony for the def is so compelling), Brennan lied to the court to claim there was a requirement, which was shot down by Alessi on the spot who cited the statute itself to show Brennan was lying. (Did JudgeB get upset at Brennan for lying to the court? Did she reprimand him at all? No to both. She should have, but as we all know, JudgeB is gonna JudgeB.)

I so agree, a big nothing burger. The fact is, the report presented in T1 is the same report made prior to the defense even reading the report.

 

[cocomod]

No taillight was found in John's driveway.

Dr Welcher did the 3D laser imaging of the two cars and gave his expert opinion that the taillight did not touch John's car, there is a mark on Karen's car where it touched John's car, and he also gave his expert opinion that that bump at that speed did not cause the taillight to break.

The defence reconstructionists ARCCA also agreed with that in trial 1.

It wasn’t broken, it cracked

There is no evidence of taillight

There was more than one witness that testified the taillight was only cracked and there is video showing it only cracked, not missing and shattered!

The two police officers Bukhenik and Proctor's DNA was not on the taillight.



There is no evidence of taillight planting.

More importantly, OJO’s DNA wasn’t on the taillight

 

[missy1974]

I am just watching LYK right now...

They mention the '8 miles per hour would break the tail light', but say Welcher never actually proved that, or didn't say how he proved that. I looked quickly at his testimony and I see where he said it, but I don't see where he says how he came to that conclusion.

They are also talking about the crash test dummies lol and why didn't he test it!

 

[mrjitty]

Judson B. Welcher | Executive Vice President

Judson B. Welcher

www.aperturellc.com

Shanon Burgess | Forensic Expert

Shanon Burgess

www.aperturellc.com

I saw a lot of people posting about this yesterday but the employee search worked perfectly for me. My guess with 1000s of people loading the site some of them have a bad cached version of it. If you check it under emulation in a cloud machine (used by devs) it works, and it's always worked for me the half dozen times i have been there.

 

[mrjitty]

They did not gain access to Karen's phone until July 2022 because they did not have her passcode. Link provided above.

Yes - which is critical because they could not take the steps Green suggests to protect the location cache - and he then even goes on to say that even if they had realised to do that it may not have worked anyway.

What Green says is the phone might have had some cached location data from apple maps but it is only kept for a few weeks. He then goes on to talk about whether the phone was put in airplane mode or whatever - he does not know. But the point is from your other link that because Karen did not provide the passkey, the CW had to brute force the phone which took months (into July).

He then claims to have found deleted location data from april 2022 (i.e not from January). He then goes on to say he may not have looked for the web searches Karen deleted.

In any event, this is nowhere close to testimony that the CW deleted Karen's location data. He does not say location data from January was deleted - he said it was in the cache and then lost if it ever existed.

From around 48mins.

 

[mrjitty]

IIRC DiSogra submitted his amended report BEFORE Welcher testified. Welcher's first day of testimony was the 27th, DiSogra updated his slides on the 25th (a Sunday) after talking to Jackson according to his testimony.

I don't think it's unreasonable that he updated something, considering that Burgess submitted an amended report on May 8th. Why wouldn't DiSogra do an amendement too, considering the only data he used WAS Burgess' and Welcher's? If they changed, his would have to too IMO

Yes - we know DiSogra did an amendment of his powerpoint following Burgess's supplemental - he talked about it in his testimony and the Judge granted permission for it.

My point was Alessi claimed to the Judge back on the 14th and 15th that this was all so terrible and changed his case so he had to ask for 4 days extra time with his experts which the Judge granted - but then Alessi waited over a week to even ask DiSogra to do his update - on a Sunday.

This is what Brennan drew out on cross. For all of Alessi's claims that this 'new timeline' was unfair to his 'effectuated strategy' - DiSogra didn't do anything at all when he received Burgess's new critique of his calculations. Indeed he waited until the 25th when he was finally asked to consider it.

And yes - sorry i mixed up Dr Welcher and Burgess. They waited until Burgess testimony was completed.

IMO