MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #33 Retrial

[justwannahelp]

And add in the variable for amount of clothing. John was not dressed for the weather.

Right. But i will say that the study used 176lbs (inserted that mass into the equation) and a “light layer of clothing”

And temp used was 25 degrees F with 10mph winds


Cold Weather Survival Time – Body Physics: Motion to Metabolism

 

[ShadyLady]

Curious if the defense concede following:

-- “2:27 am google search "hos long to die in cold”
-- KR's Lexus hit John’s Chevy Traverse


No RG testimony at all. Google search debunked.
ARCCA basically showed the jury what happened to JJO.

moo

Yes, I would love for you to argue the other side. You might not be a lawyer, but a lawyer could argue both sides.

I think to find Karen guilty, you would need to believe JenMc and Keri. Both liars. Jen lied to the FBI and Keri lied to a Grand Jury.

 

[Anniesflowers]

Re: It wasnt good for the defense to have had Thursday off.

Visual over and over again of Rescue Randy getting side swiped/clipped clearly showed the senseless death of Officer John O’Keefe. It was right there! At the expense of JJO's loved (poor Mrs. O’Keefe) ones having to see it over and over again.

Also, seen by media and yt influencers, but will they still treat a murder defendant as a celebrity... yes, imo, I think so. Of course, gives more clicks, money, and so on, and pays bills.

The simple story of an alleged drunk driver, hit and run, does not. In addition, the defendant asked to see what the CW accusing her of, who wanted reenactment, "recreate that for us."


Additionally, the shattering of the taillight shards spoke volumes. Omg.

Karen Read: 'What is the commonwealth accusing me of?'​

Sometimes I wonder if everyone is watching the same trial. . Moo.

In every single experiment, from 10 - 29 mph, the resulting damage to Dr. Wolfe’s taillights was completely incompatible with KR’s actual taillight damage. The 29mph event created all sorts of damage to the rear of the sample Lexus, which is not at all consistent with the actual damage done to KR’s vehicle. Dr. Wolfe was NOT testing the damage done to JOK’s body at different collision speeds, we’ll see that soon.
BBM below is mine. I found this statement to be very interesting. That last collision was very violent and caused WAY more physical damage to the rear of the vehicle than seen in KR’s, yet the internal components remained intact. In KR’s actual tailight the internal components were smashed. When I combine that information with KR’s taillight being mostly intact in Dighton, I can’t see any way the 47 taillight pieces would arrive at 34 F without human intervention.

Cross-examination exposes gaps in defense expert’s crash testing for Karen Read

In each simulation, at speeds ranging from 10 to 29 mph, the damage to the vehicle's taillight was "inconsistent" with that damage police recorded on Read's actual taillight.

While most of the impacts shattered the outer lens, internal components that were destroyed in Read's vehicle remained intact in multiple test taillights.

"Did you reach any opinions or conclusions as to whether the damage to the right rear tail light of the subject vehicle is consistent or inconsistent with an impact to a right arm during a high-speed reversing maneuver?" asked defense attorney Alan Jackson.

"It was inconsistent," Wolfe replied.

 

[mrjitty]

What? Dr Wolfe has no expertise in key cycles. Why would he even begin to opine on 1162, or any other key cycle? His expert opinion, backed up by multiple degrees and certifications, and ACTUAL science and reconstruction examples (multiple, at that) all concludes the damage to the Lexus is not consistent with striking JO’s arm. Period. It doesn’t actually matter what happened beyond that simple conclusion. If her Lexus didn’t strike him, the entire case is out the window.

He does have expertise in EDR according to his CV

In any event I agree that DiSogra was on the team to be the EDR / Infotainment data guy, but some had suggested ARCCA would contest 1162.

Personally i never believed they would, as Brennan already said in the motions hearing back on 15 May that ARCCA's reports did not address it.

IMO

 

[Anniesflowers]

What? Dr Wolfe has no expertise in key cycles. Why would he even begin to opine on 1162, or any other key cycle? His expert opinion, backed up by multiple degrees and certifications, and ACTUAL science and reconstruction examples (multiple, at that) all concludes the damage to the Lexus is not consistent with striking JO’s arm. Period. It doesn’t actually matter what happened beyond that simple conclusion. If her Lexus didn’t strike him, the entire case is out the window.

BBM
It really is that simple.

 

[justwannahelp]

"For as long as I can remember, they have never parked a vehicle in front of their house," Loughran (Lucky) testified. "They've always had enough ample parking in the driveway."

SO I think BA would have told BH where to park. WHY lie about where he parked his jeep? What was the "story" that they agreed on before Karen decided to not take the plea deal, and per MM it became an "episode".

BBM

Wow. I missed that during Lucky’s testimony! (I was multitasking with kids yapping at me.)

I really think they brought him into the basement while trying to figure out what to do then carried him out the bulkhead doors through the side gate in the yard hoping the ford edge would keep ring cameras from seeing them drag him through the gate in the yard

Do we know if they normally hung out in the basement? If they didn’t, i think they brought him down there after an argument occurred to get him out of sight. Did they renovate any other part of the home?

 

[ShadyLady]

Sometimes I wonder if everyone is watching the same trial. . Moo.

In every single experiment, from 10 - 29 mph, the resulting damage to Dr. Wolfe’s taillights was completely incompatible with KR’s actual taillight damage. The 29mph event created all sorts of damage to the rear of the sample Lexus, which is not at all consistent with the actual damage done to KR’s vehicle. Dr. Wolfe was NOT testing the damage done to JOK’s body at different collision speeds, we’ll see that soon.
BBM below is mine. I found this statement to be very interesting. That last collision was very violent and caused WAY more physical damage to the rear of the vehicle than seen in KR’s, yet the internal components remained intact. In KR’s actual tailight the internal components were smashed. When I combine that information with KR’s taillight being mostly intact in Dighton, I can’t see any way the 47 taillight pieces would arrive at 34 F without human intervention.

Cross-examination exposes gaps in defense expert’s crash testing for Karen Read

In each simulation, at speeds ranging from 10 to 29 mph, the damage to the vehicle's taillight was "inconsistent" with that damage police recorded on Read's actual taillight.

While most of the impacts shattered the outer lens, internal components that were destroyed in Read's vehicle remained intact in multiple test taillights.

"Did you reach any opinions or conclusions as to whether the damage to the right rear tail light of the subject vehicle is consistent or inconsistent with an impact to a right arm during a high-speed reversing maneuver?" asked defense attorney Alan Jackson.

"It was inconsistent," Wolfe replied.

"That last collision was very violent and caused WAY more physical damage to the rear of the vehicle than seen in KR’s, yet the internal components remained intact."

Exactly. I wonder too. FYI, when I first heard about this case I was all about supporting LE, oh, how I have changed my mind.

And did Judge call a day off so prosecution could gather their wits.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

The sallyport photo shows shattered diffuser but ARCCA’s testing demonstrated that this type of impact wouldn’t cause that kind of damage. The Ring video from 1 Meadows driveway confirms the diffusers were still intact when the car was parked before seizure. IMO Proctor wasn’t satisfied with red plastic alone. He tried to be thorough, and critically overreached.

 

[lohrtabitha]

Re: It wasnt good for the defense to have had Thursday off.

Visual over and over again of Rescue Randy getting side swiped/clipped clearly showed the senseless death of Officer John O’Keefe. It was right there! At the expense of JJO's loved (poor Mrs. O’Keefe) ones having to see it over and over again.

Also, seen by media and yt influencers, but will they still treat a murder defendant as a celebrity... yes, imo, I think so. Of course, gives more clicks, money, and so on, and pays bills.

The simple story of an alleged drunk driver, hit and run, does not. In addition, the defendant asked to see what the CW accusing her of, who wanted reenactment, "recreate that for us."


Additionally, the shattering of the taillight shards spoke volumes. Omg!

My own opinion- as always

Defendant asked for the visual… see news clip, if interested.

Karen Read: 'What is the commonwealth accusing me of?'​

Your summary never matches the trial I'm watching.

 

[DustysMom]

BBM - great point comparing flying loose teeth and flying plastic

I do think JOK’s body temp IS relevant to the case because what OJO’s was upon arrival to the hospital proves it was impossible for him to have been out there in those conditions for 5.5hrs. Impossible. So he couldn’t have been hit by KR around 12:30am. If they were trying to prove she hit him at 4am, maybe….but that’s not the case. & there’s proof she was not there at 4am.

& to ME, the science necessary to understand core body temp is MUCH easier than all these recreated car accidents, and MUCH more to the point & without gray area, therefore believable.

These accident reconstructions are just GUESSES because there’s no proof of an accident even occurring. They don’t REALLY know where the car was and what it did. Techstream and black boxes are not precise (& i believe can be tampered with). I do not trust these particular officers. Nothing they say is believable based on their proven lies and shady behavior. So I’m looking for concrete evidence.

Body temp upon arrival cannot be tampered with, unless the ER nurse flat out lied or meant to put -.08 rather than 80.

I wouldn’t say the body temp would prove anything if it was SORT OF CLOSE to what it would have been if he was out there exposed for 5.5 hours. But it was no where NEAR what body temp would be in those conditions after 5.5 hours. He would have been 32 degrees F, yet he was 80F

I REALLY hope the defense calls in a body temp “expert” - a doctor who deals with hypothermia would do. It’s really easy to understand and proves OJO was sheltered SOMEWHERE for at LEAST 3 hours.

The only way I can “force” his body temp with the theory KR hit him around 12:30 is if someone pulled him in from the lawn after impact, gave him shelter/warmth for 3 or more hours, then put him back outside on the lawn. She (if she had hit him) would have been the only person with motive to do that. The motive being try to save him without people knowing she hit him. But we KNOW she didn’t do any of this because of ring cams and her cell phone. Anyone else who brought him indoors would not have a reason to call 911 immediately because they didn’t run over him.

So where did he get warmth for at least 3 hours? Technically, it doesn’t matter to this case. Just knowing he was sheltered AT ALL is enough to prove KR didn’t hit him

And the wounds are CLEARLY dog bites IMO. The SETS of parallel lines repeating themselves all over his arm. It’s obvious it wasn’t tail light, and looks EXACTLY like the wounds of other dog attack victims as you stated earlier. The only way to force the dog bites into the theory of KR hitting him around 12:30am is if a dog bit him while he was lying on the lawn after impact, which isn’t impossible. But there’s STILL that body temp proving he wasn’t on the lawn for 5.5 hours…..

Amen

 

[jepop]

"those "celebrating" yesterday as compelling proof for the prosecution continue to misunderstand the concepts of burden of proof and reasonable doubt, which will be driven home in summation. That an experiment shows a taillight suffers modest shattering when hitting an arm at 24 MPH and more shattering at 29 MPH (but less than 47 pieces) is not "overwhelming proof" for the prosecution case. In fact it does little for them when considering the opinion of the experts and the following facts: (1) the diffusers are only severely damaged on Karen's SUV and in none of the experiments, (2) the taillight is not as severely damaged at 29 MPH as is Karen's SUV, (3) the hoody has no holes in the tests (except a straight on hit at 29 MPH and after being dragged on road/road rash), (4) testimony that the laws of physics make it impossible for the glass shards to have cut the hoody on impact, and (5) no broken bones and bruises (with 2 more experts still to go to buttress this obvious point). "It could have happened" and a grease paint test without compelling supportive proof do not come close to satisfying the necessary burden of proof."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1931327161161417095

I've seen recent sm posts opining that Dr Wolfe's testimony was a win for the CW and literally wondering (wide eyed apparently) why on earth Jackson kicked an own goal. Really? It's hard to take the apparent wonderment at face value and not conclude disingenuity is at play.

IMO. Brennan tried desperately to muddy the waters and actually spar with Wolfe over his knowledge of physics at one point! I think that not for one minute have the jury failed to notice Brennan's desperate and aggressive demeanour and the fact that on what he seems to have thought were 'gotcha' moments, he was in reality obtusely blocking Wolfe from providing the only answers possible.

Brennan kept repeating questions which were literally senseless, ignoring Dr Wolfe's attempts to shown him why. The jury can't have been blind to what was going on, although from what Bederow reports, there are ofcourse people watching who are either deliberately or obtusely misrepresenting Wolfe's testimony.

As for the misdirection attempted by Brennan over the hoodie and some of the different test results, AJ has already addressed that in redirect.

Imo below are the main points established from direct, cross and start of redirect;

* No damage to the right arm of the hoodie from tail light pieces or shards of any size during any of the various scenarios tested using the ATD arm and/or full ATD.

* In all test scenarios with some more obvious than others, inconsistent damage between the test Lexus tail light and the tail light from KR's Lexus in the custody of MSP. The diffusers were totally destroyed on KR's tail light. Only during the 29 m/ph centre of mass impact to the ATD arm was there any damage to the diffusers on the exemplar and this was simply a crack to the housing of one, not the diffusers themselves. But forget the diffusers. The other damage sustained to the rear in the direct impact scenario was very obviously entirely inconsistent with the rear area of KR's Lexus in custody of the MSP ( huge dents etc).

,* The ATD arm weighing two pounds less than the statistical norm for a male ATD arm has no relevance in the context of the physics of the kinetic forces. Whether 9 or 11 pounds or something in between, if the arm is impacted as contended by the cw it will travel at the same speed as the Lexus when initially hit.
Brennan's muddied attempt to match Dr Wolfe on this point has already been flushed out as the ruse it is by Jackson on redirect.

* Jackson has similarly already demolished the other non-point Brennan attempted on cross. The ATD arm when impacted, immediately moves away from the tail light. The only way tail light fragments could make contact with the arm, pierce the hoodie and cause any marks at all on the arm is if they travelled at speeds in excess of the arm. Dr Wolfe stated that in his expert opinion this quite simply is not kinetically or physically possible. I mean even a lay person can understand the common sense of this but to have the witness state not possible is very powerful nonetheless. Moo

Finally, Dr Wolfe is one half of the coin. Dr Rentschler will cover the arm injuries once Dr Wolfe's testimony is concluded. Moo

 

[lohrtabitha]

They don’t need excuses not to look for the real killer. They were never interested in that.

I disagree here. I do think tha defense does want to see the real killers come to justice and is why they went third party culprit first trial. That being said, it is an easier win this trial, not to argue it. Imo

 

[lohrtabitha]

Yes, I've seen that over and over again also. It's the same tactic that Brennan uses on the stand with defense witnesses and sometimes even his own witnesses if they can't agree with him. I've also noticed those who try to invoke sympathy for JOKs family. The evidence doesn't match their flawed narrative so they try to use other tactics to interfere with the right of Karen Read to an honest and thorough trial.
MOO

I truly believe that the way Brennan has talked to some of the witnesses and experts, is going to work against him in the mind of most of the jurrors. He is a person who shows no empathy an̈d most humans are empathetic. He may be his own worst enemy in this case. Imo

 

[lohrtabitha]

Per Brennan, everyone's a victim except John and Karen.

Lots of boohoos from Alberts and McCabes....and now officers.

Is Devers really part of McCabe clan?

I wonder is she is related to anyone in this case? Hmm.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

What? Dr Wolfe has no expertise in key cycles. Why would he even begin to opine on 1162, or any other key cycle? His expert opinion, backed up by multiple degrees and certifications, and ACTUAL science and reconstruction examples (multiple, at that) all concludes the damage to the Lexus is not consistent with striking JO’s arm. Period. It doesn’t actually matter what happened beyond that simple conclusion. If her Lexus didn’t strike him, the entire case is out the window.

thank you! Lots of ‘not seeing the forest for the trees’ going on. MOO

 

[justwannahelp]

So i talked with my husband about what they could have potentially been fighting about. I told him I believed the theory that they were mad about something involving law enforcement. (OJO was going to report something, maybe, for example. We know these folks are corrupt….)

I told my husband i didn’t believe grown men this age would argue over a woman and told him about KR and BH’s text messages that night and John’s kiss on the forehead happening right in front of BH’s face then some arm motions later that looked to be aggressive in some way. I reenacted the arm motions and said I just don’t think a grown man in public would be like “bring it man” over a woman. I STILL can’t figure out what the arm motions were about. It could have been a reenactment. I could have been anything. But OJO was looking right at Higgins it seems when this took place, right? He was standing in front of KR at the bar with his head turned to his left as if to be watching something. After a few seconds he kind of directs his head to the ground. It seems like he could have been thinking “THIS guy…what a tool.” You know what i mean? Again this is all speculation - what the motions were about and what OJO could have been thinking.

ANNNNNY, way, my husband was like “oh now that you’ve told me about the texts etc, I absolutely think it was over a woman!” He said, “Drunk men fight all the time over women!” This fight was one that just went terribly wrong, as many do. No one planned on killing anyone. He said “it happens a lot but we just don’t hear about it. In lots of fights people end up SERIOUSLY injured or dead when that wasn’t the intention, especially when it involves groups of men amping each other up.” Then I showed him pics of the men and he said, “Yeh, big guys drunk and amped up — there are SO many ways John could have ended up on the back of his head.”

<modsnip>

Anyway, just throwing that out there. I didn’t think grown men really fought over women. According to my husband, I’m wrong. And from the local case, we can assume it doesn’t take much to split a head open accidentally. I reallllly want to see the wound on the back of the 26 year old’s head to compare.

 

[themonk]

Of the people who were at 34F the night of who has been shown to have lied or been deceptive?

Or is it easier to name those who didn't lie /weren't deceptive?

 

[ShadyLady]

BBM

Wow. I missed that during Lucky’s testimony! (I was multitasking with kids yapping at me.)

I really think they brought him into the basement while trying to figure out what to do then carried him out the bulkhead doors through the side gate in the yard hoping the ford edge would keep ring cameras from seeing them drag him through the gate in the yard

Do we know if they normally hung out in the basement? If they didn’t, i think they brought him down there after an argument occurred to get him out of sight. Did they renovate any other part of the home?

You make a good point about where the jeep was really parked. They did not want to capture video from ring across the street.

Edge and jeep two different cars. So hard to know where John was put originally, and was he transferred later? Or was the Edge there at 3:30am to make sure John had not moved. I think John's cell was put in a Faraday bag as soon as Jen found it. IMO

But, I suspect it all went down in the basement. I don't think any other part of the house was removed. Basement and door from basement to back yard. And the whole beach cleaning, and turning up dancing video to drown out noise.

So many clues. IMO

 

[ShadyLady]

So i talked with my husband about what they could have potentially been fighting about. I told him I believed the theory that they were mad about something involving law enforcement. (OJO was going to report something, maybe, for example. We know these folks are corrupt….)

I told my husband i didn’t believe grown men this age would argue over a woman and told him about KR and BH’s text messages that night and John’s kiss on the forehead happening right in front of BH’s face then some arm motions later that looked to be aggressive in some way. I reenacted the arm motions and said I just don’t think a grown man in public would be like “bring it man” over a woman. I STILL can’t figure out what the arm motions were about. It could have been a reenactment. I could have been anything. But OJO was looking right at Higgins it seems when this took place, right? He was standing in front of KR at the bar with his head turned to his left as if to be watching something. After a few seconds he kind of directs his head to the ground. It seems like he could have been thinking “THIS guy…what a tool.” You know what i mean? Again this is all speculation - what the motions were about and what OJO could have been thinking.

ANNNNNY, way, my husband was like “oh now that you’ve told me about the texts etc, I absolutely think it was over a woman!” He said, “Drunk men fight all the time over women!” This fight was one that just went terribly wrong, as many do. No one planned on killing anyone. He said “it happens a lot but we just don’t hear about it. In lots of fights people end up SERIOUSLY injured or dead when that wasn’t the intention, especially when it involves groups of men amping each other up.” Then I showed him pics of the men and he said, “Yeh, big guys drunk and amped up — there are SO many ways John could have ended up on the back of his head.”

<modsnip>

Anyway, just throwing that out there. I didn’t think grown men really fought over women. According to my husband, I’m wrong. And from the local case, we can assume it doesn’t take much to split a head open accidentally. I reallllly want to see the wound on the back of the 26 year old’s head to compare.

Ok...now you have me thinking it might have been all about a woman. But, did Alberts and McCabes egg it on? I don't think Jen ever liked Karen. Did BH share information about texts with Kevin and Brian? Gossip got to Jen.

 

[waldojabba]

I thought surely it would lead to dismissal, how do they pull that stunt in front of the jury and not have that happen?

Lol. Have you met the judge? There’s your reason there was no dismissal.
JMO