MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #33 Retrial

[Wishbone]

That was my question in a discussion several days ago and this information came out here..

A person cannot be pronounced dead while cold from hypothermia- they are warmed up first. The body systems can slow down and then kick back in and come to ‘life’.
He was Non-responsive when found around 6, they did CPR chest compressions and rescue breathing, and the EMTs put in a vent tube- some of those have thermometers on them used to measure core body temp.
You can also measure the core temp of a body using an anal thermometer- not sure that is easy to do in ambulance.

Exposed Five Hours ??
Air was going into his lungs?
His chest compressed?
They could get a vent tube down his trachea?
Karen describes blood flowing when she pulled a piece of glass from his nose. ( No way the blood was flowing out of a small cut on his nose. Surface blood is brought to the core of the body when we are exposed to sub freezing temps.)

He wasn’t nearly as cold and frozen as I had expected.
So how does that make sense??

IMO

Most everything I have seen confirms JO was in cardiac arrest when emt's arrived and started cpr. Body temp has to raised before a time of death can be made and that was done at the hospital before declaring him deceased. Here is a short snip of a first responders comments.

Nuttall tried to find a pulse, but O’Keefe wasn’t breathing. O’Keefe was cold to the touch, he said.
“There was no signs of life,” he said.
Because O’Keefe was cold to the touch, first responders attempted to resuscitate him. Nuttall said O’Keefe’s fingers were white and stiff, which can be signs of hypothermia and frostbite.

Karen Read trial live updates: Canton firefighter testifies about ‘I hit him’ statement

The prosecution and defense laid out competing theories of John O'Keefe's death during opening statements Tuesday in Karen Read's second trial.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Spider92]

It doesn't matter because there was no collision bewteen a body and any vehicle according to the expert team from AARCA and CW has not proven otherwise.

The last time I heard an answer that evasive was when Devers was on the stand.

 

[keek]

Caitlin Albert's boyfriend Tristin Morris drives a light colored Ford Edge, was at 34 Fairview Road the night John O'Keefe was murdered, was out drinking with them before disappearing, and is no longer on the Canton Police waiting list, which surprises me, but obv thought better of it or he himself was nixed off. He was to be plowing that night or morning for storm so he did go home I would think. IMO

They took the dog as why did caitlin make up the oddly interjected for no reason story on the stand of oh, we saw a little white dog lost so we brought it to the cpd, but the owners were already outside so we gave it to them. ANY need for dog hair maybe in the car if ever checked, NOT that it would of matched Albert's dog. Another odd little story from them not asked for. IMO

 

[HarmonyE.]

They took the dog as why did caitlin make up the oddly interjected for no reason story on the stand of oh, we saw a little white dog lost so we brought it to the cpd, but the owners were already outside so we gave it to them. ANY need for dog hair maybe in the car if ever checked, NOT that it would of matched Albert's dog. Another odd little story from them not asked for. IMO

It was Allie McCabe who told the lost dog story as part of her lies about her ride with Colin Albert that night.

 

[Tortoise]

I thought I'd transcribe some of Ian Whiffin's evidence from JOK's phone. Not everything, but just some of the data showing battery temperature, phone unlocking/pocket state etc. There is more data in his presentation. I don't think this has been transcribed here before, although could have missed it.

Phone battery temperatures shown in red.

28th Jan 2022

8.43 PM - 25C / 77F

9.39 PM - 28C / 82F

10.18 PM - 30C / 86F

10.40 PM - 28C / 82F

11.28 PM - 30C / 86F

29th Jan 2022

12.13 AM - 28C / 82F

12.22 AM - 25C / 77F – IN CAR BECAUSE OF LOCATION DATA

12.24.22 AM – TRAVELING 18.3 MPH

12.24.23 AM – TRAVELING 16.9 MPH

12.24.24 AM – TRAVELING 16.9 MPH

12.24.25 AM – TRAVELING 16.6 MPH

12.24.26 AM – TRAVELING AT 17 MPH – & WAZE APP CLOSED

12.24.27 AM – TRAVELING AT 15.9 MPH

12.24.28 AM – TRAVELING AT 14.5 MPH - APPROX. 34 FAIRVIEW DRIVEWAY AREA – & PHONE LOCKS

12.24.29 AM – TRAVELING 12.1 MPH

12.24.30 AM – TRAVELING 11.5 MPH

12.24.31 AM – TRAVELING 10.4 MPH

12.24.32 AM – TRAVELING 8.9 MPH

12.24.33 AM – TRAVELING 7 MPH

12.24.34 AM – TRAVELING 5.2 MPH

12.24.35 AM – TRAVELING 3.5 MPH

12.24.36 AM – TRAVELING 3.2 MPH

12.24.37 AM – TRAVELING 1.4 MPH

12.24.38 AM – DEVICE COMES TO A STOP 0 MPH – ‘CLOSE TO FLAGPOLE AREA’

12.24.59 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID

12.25.08 AM - TEXT ‘YOU COMING HERE?’ READ

12.25.09 AM – LOCK BUTTON PRESSED

12.27.33 AM – TEXT REC’D FROM JMc ‘HERE?’

12.27.45 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID

12.27.48 AM – TEXT ‘HERE?’ READ

12.27.50 AM - LOCK BUTTON PRESSED

12.29.44 AM – 12.29.51 AM - INCOMING CALL ANSWERED 7 SECS

12.29.52 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID & SMS ON SCREEN

12.29.53 AM – LOCK BUTTON PRESSED

12.31.47 AM – TXT MSG RECD ‘PULL BEHIND ME’

12.31.52 AM – IS IN A POCKET STATE

12.31.56 AM – START OF 36 STEPS

12.32.03 AM – POCKET STATE CLEARED

12.32.04 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID & SMS ON SCREEN

12.32.06 AM – READ MSG ‘PULL BEHIND ME’

12.32.09 – APP CLOSED & LOCK BUTTON PRESSED FINAL INTERACTION WITH DEVICE BEFORE POCKET STATE. THIS IS DURING THE 5-SECOND WINDOW LEXUS HAS GONE 87FT IN REVERSE, IS STILL GOING AT 23 MPH AT 74% THROTTLE, ZERO BRAKE APPLICATION, ACCORDING TO BURGESS CALCS FOR TIME DIFF WITH LEXUS CLOCK.

12.32.16 AM - END OF 36 STEPS

12.33.14 – POCKET STATE (PHONE CAMERA COVERED) LASTING 5 HRS+ UNTIL 6.15.01 AM

12.37 AM - 22C / 72F

12.45 AM - 19C / 66F

12.53 AM - 16C / 61F

1.07 AM - 13C / 55F

1.36 AM - 10C / 50F

6.06 AM - 6C / 43F – KNOWN FROM EVENTS IT’S UNDERNEATH JOHN

6.14 AM – 2C / 37F – PARAMEDICS HAVE JUST REMOVED JOHN ON STRETCHER

6.15.01 AM – KERRY ROBERTS PICKS UP PHONE FROM GROUND (ON VIDEO) / POCKET CLEARS

6.35 AM – 7C / 45F

6.40 AM – 10C / 50F

6.48 AM – 13C / 55F

6.56 AM – 16C / 61F


Ian Whiffin's evidence:

Kerry Roberts' evidence showing video of her picking up phone & paramedics moving John:
timestamp
1.31.35

 

[waldojabba]

Just thinking

Our friend HB, pretty much led the jury to believe that we all knew the weight of John's arm and Wolfe got it wrong. HB had Wolfe do that ridiculous calculation while sitting on the stand
(Snarling :You've got a calculator don't you...You can do the math can't you....Over here)

The calc came up 26% ish ( John's arm supposedly weighed more than the arm ARCCA used) and then Hank led the jury to believe every calculation Wolfe did needed to be adjusted down by that 26% ish.

Hank intentionally misled the jury which is an actual feature of his Special Prosecutor role. Wolfe tried to explain to Hank but Hank was not having it.

Definitely not a first for Hank.

AJ then cleaned up HB's claims on cross.

If I am in the jury that does not make me happy or trusting of HB.

HB really self sabotages every time on cross.

There is no line HB will not cross
JMO

 

[keek]

It was Allie McCabe who told the lost dog story as part of her lies about her ride with Colin Albert that night.

Ohhhhhhh right lost dog, wrong girl.

 

[Wishbone]

Sorry for the double post, but hoping to get a serious answer this time….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

Quote

Even the cw can't prove any of that. Unknown starting and ending point per welcher testimony. The lexus could have gone to outer space.

 

[TDoc72]

Thanks for highlighting to me that Brennan thinks that spouses would impact testimony.
IMHO just show how dodgy he is.

This was ridiculous. My (now deceased) husband would’ve been like “I don’t know what the hell my wife does all over the internet!”

It is a large driveway. And it's illegal to leave a car on the street in the winter after 1 am.

When we consider the party was over before Lucky made his first pass, it makes no sense for any vehicle associated with 34 Fairview to have been out there at that time.

Eh, it’s illegal to drink and drive but that didn’t stop the house gang either.
~~~~~
Also, as an aside, that house gang & adjacents were single-handedly keeping the Ford Edge the most popular car in Canton! It’s like “who doesn’t own one” at this point.

 

[missy1974]

Sorry for the double post, but hoping to get a serious answer this time….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

Quote

I don't think they have. I know some think the defense has conceded on different things, I don't think they have, but that is JMO.
I always listen carefully to their questions, they will ask.. IF the car did this or that... of IF the time was XX time, etc.

I do know that they wanted to question Welcher about Trooper Paul's (did the key cycles) report and that was denied. The only reason for them to do want to bring up Trooper Paul's report is to show that they do not agree IMO

I also think the defense in their questioning to Welcher tried to make it clear, that if she was backing up, and at a high rate of speed, wouldn't she hit a vehicle if she was parked there? hit the curb? end up on the lawn? So, nope, I don't think they are acknowledging it at all

 

[Forest_Wood]

OT but thanks for making this comment because I was driving myself batty trying to figure out why I didn't have the laughing reaction emoji!

So some months ago they removed the laughing emojis as a punitive measure due to some people abusing them to mock comments, and now they've been brought back for those who pay for them?!?

 

[Spider92]

I thought I'd transcribe some of Ian Whiffin's evidence from JOK's phone. Not everything, but just some of the data showing battery temperature, phone unlocking/pocket state etc. There is more data in his presentation. I don't think this has been transcribed here before, although could have missed it.

Phone battery temperatures shown in red.

28th Jan 2022

8.43 PM - 25C / 77F

9.39 PM - 28C / 82F

10.18 PM - 30C / 86F

10.40 PM - 28C / 82F

11.28 PM - 30C / 86F

29th Jan 2022

12.13 AM - 28C / 82F

12.22 AM - 25C / 77F – IN CAR BECAUSE OF LOCATION DATA

12.24.22 AM – TRAVELING 18.3 MPH

12.24.23 AM – TRAVELING 16.9 MPH

12.24.24 AM – TRAVELING 16.9 MPH

12.24.25 AM – TRAVELING 16.6 MPH

12.24.26 AM – TRAVELING AT 17 MPH – & WAZE APP CLOSED

12.24.27 AM – TRAVELING AT 15.9 MPH

12.24.28 AM – TRAVELING AT 14.5 MPH - APPROX. 34 FAIRVIEW DRIVEWAY AREA – & PHONE LOCKS

12.24.29 AM – TRAVELING 12.1 MPH

12.24.30 AM – TRAVELING 11.5 MPH

12.24.31 AM – TRAVELING 10.4 MPH

12.24.32 AM – TRAVELING 8.9 MPH

12.24.33 AM – TRAVELING 7 MPH

12.24.34 AM – TRAVELING 5.2 MPH

12.24.35 AM – TRAVELING 3.5 MPH

12.24.36 AM – TRAVELING 3.2 MPH

12.24.37 AM – TRAVELING 1.4 MPH

12.24.38 AM – DEVICE COMES TO A STOP 0 MPH – ‘CLOSE TO FLAGPOLE AREA’

12.24.59 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID

12.25.08 AM - TEXT ‘YOU COMING HERE?’ READ

12.25.09 AM – LOCK BUTTON PRESSED

12.27.33 AM – TEXT REC’D FROM JMc ‘HERE?’

12.27.45 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID

12.27.48 AM – TEXT ‘HERE?’ READ

12.27.50 AM - LOCK BUTTON PRESSED

12.29.44 AM – 12.29.51 AM - INCOMING CALL ANSWERED 7 SECS

12.29.52 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID & SMS ON SCREEN

12.29.53 AM – LOCK BUTTON PRESSED

12.31.47 AM – TXT MSG RECD ‘PULL BEHIND ME’

12.31.52 AM – IS IN A POCKET STATE

12.31.56 AM – START OF 36 STEPS

12.32.03 AM – POCKET STATE CLEARED

12.32.04 AM – PHONE UNLOCKED FACE ID & SMS ON SCREEN

12.32.06 AM – READ MSG ‘PULL BEHIND ME’

12.32.09 – APP CLOSED & LOCK BUTTON PRESSED FINAL INTERACTION WITH DEVICE BEFORE POCKET STATE. THIS IS DURING THE 5-SECOND WINDOW LEXUS HAS GONE 87FT IN REVERSE, IS STILL GOING AT 23 MPH AT 74% THROTTLE, ZERO BRAKE APPLICATION, ACCORDING TO BURGESS CALCS FOR TIME DIFF WITH LEXUS CLOCK.

12.32.16 AM - END OF 36 STEPS

12.33.14 – POCKET STATE (PHONE CAMERA COVERED) LASTING 5 HRS+ UNTIL 6.15.01 AM

12.37 AM - 22C / 72F

12.45 AM - 19C / 66F

12.53 AM - 16C / 61F

1.07 AM - 13C / 55F

1.36 AM - 10C / 50F

6.06 AM - 6C / 43F – KNOWN FROM EVENTS IT’S UNDERNEATH JOHN

6.14 AM – 2C / 37F – PARAMEDICS HAVE JUST REMOVED JOHN ON STRETCHER

6.15.01 AM – KERRY ROBERTS PICKS UP PHONE FROM GROUND (ON VIDEO) / POCKET CLEARS

6.35 AM – 7C / 45F

6.40 AM – 10C / 50F

6.48 AM – 13C / 55F

6.56 AM – 16C / 61F


Ian Whiffin's evidence:

Kerry Roberts' evidence showing video of her picking up phone & paramedics moving John:
timestamp
1.31.35

That’s a really good summary. I wonder how many feet JOK would walk taking 36 steps - 87 feet?

 

[cocomod]

Sorry for the double post, but hoping to get a serious answer this time….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

Quote

Honestly, I don’t know what is agreed to at this point and I am not sure I care. We know she had a 3 point turn that night already. In my opinion, backing up doesn’t prove anything. Even CW witness agree to the first two items below.

Keystroke does not prove collision
Keystroke does not prove collision
Keystroke does not prove collision

OJO was not hit by a vehicle
OJO was not hit by a vehicle
OJO was not hit by a vehicle

If the dog bit, you must acquit
If the dog bit, you must acquit
If the dog bit, you must acquit

 

[Forest_Wood]

If the dog bit, you must acquit

This is my favorite mantra!

 

[AngTxGal]

The sad and obvious thing here is that even if Karen Read is found NG, she will still suffer for many years. People won't let her forget this. There will be many who will not believe she didn't kill JOK. And if she is found NG due to reasonable doubt, what if she did do something that caused his death? How does a person live with that when everything dies down...
And yes, then the civil suits by the family, and possibly even KR will sue the police.
Then if it's another mistrial, there will be a lot of anxiety for her. Will the CW want to take it to trial again. How long does a person have to wait to find this out. And could she handle another trial?
And if it's a guilty verdict, off she will go to prison but it can't be justice being served since it wasn't proven BARD. And appeals. And more documentaries and books written.
LE really let down so many people in this investigation and two wrongs don't make a right with the CW trying to overcompensate for a poor investigation. IMO.

Agree, and KR is not the only one impacted by a batched investigation
JOKs family cannot get justice if the cause and manner of his death is not ever investigated.

JOKs parents, brother, niece and nephew, and friends will be left without answers, unless they choose to file a civil suit.

The community will be filled with questions that do not have answers.

I think one of the most troubling losses is the fact that KR cannot mourn with JOK’s family, those relationships are broken. A family has been split and become enemies- and both sides have circled the wagons and declared war. How can they ever overcome that fact?

IMO

 

[SteveS]

…..so hard to remember everything….does the defense acknowledge that the SUV backed up 60-80 feet at 20+ mph in front of 42FV or is that in dispute?

SHORT ANSWER - No. The defense has NOT said they agree to that time and location for those actions by KR's vehicle.

FURTHER EXPLANATION - All that is tied to the terminology of "key cycle 1162" and where and when it occurred. The cw has claimed a specific time for 1162, placing it somewhere in the 12:30 +/- 10 minutes window in the vicinity of Fairview. The def so far has argued that the placement of 1162 doesn't fit the cw's own timeline.

In T1, the same claim was made by the prosec, the def argued the timeline was not reliable, and the def later (in their own case) provided strong evidence that 1162 happened at a very different time (and place). Their evidence was based on the cw's own definition of 1164 which was much later and was fairly certain (derived around the time it was made). 1164 was at the sallyport. The def then worked backwards 2 cycles from there. IIRC their idea was that 1162 -- the 3 pt-turn aka turning the vehicle around, followed a bit later by a long backing up going fairly fast -- occurred when the vehicle was dropped off at sallyport after being towed there, which makes perfect sense.

I expect in T2 we are seeing the same things play out. Just like in T1, in T2 the same claim was made by the prosec, and the def argued the timeline was not reliable. Although I didn't listen for it, I would assume that in defining key cycles in T2, the place and time of 1164 was also put into evidence, as it was very objective evidence. But we have yet to hear that 1162 counter-claim presented as evidence by the def in T2.

There's an obvious reason for that. They've just gotten to presenting their own evidence this week, and have covered a LOT of ground, all of it very crucial. So my guess is we just haven't gotten there yet (although until we hear it, it's always possible they have decided it doesn't hold up for some reason and we won't hear it again). I felt it was important, persuasive, and easy to understand -- and aligned very much with things the cw themselves had defined -- so I expect we will hear it again. But who knows until we get there.

 

[TDoc72]

That’s a really good summary. I wonder how many feet JOK would walk taking 36 steps - 87 feet?

If he took 36 steps, it would be away from the car towards the house across the lawn or driveway. He wouldn’t be taking 36 steps in the road, which is where her car is. No evidence she drove on the lawn. IMO

 

[Malleeboy]

Just jumping in with a thought. If they pieced together the fragments of the tail light, jigsawwise, would they find they had a missing piece, about the size of a dollar bill?

They did put it together and there is a missing piece.

 

[AngTxGal]

Most everything I have seen confirms JO was in cardiac arrest when emt's arrived and started cpr. Body temp has to raised before a time of death can be made and that was done at the hospital before declaring him deceased. Here is a short snip of a first responders comments.

Nuttall tried to find a pulse, but O’Keefe wasn’t breathing. O’Keefe was cold to the touch, he said.
“There was no signs of life,” he said.
Because O’Keefe was cold to the touch, first responders attempted to resuscitate him. Nuttall said O’Keefe’s fingers were white and stiff, which can be signs of hypothermia and frostbite.

Karen Read trial live updates: Canton firefighter testifies about ‘I hit him’ statement

The prosecution and defense laid out competing theories of John O'Keefe's death during opening statements Tuesday in Karen Read's second trial.

www.yahoo.com

Edited
JOK was in cardiac arrest? That means he was having a heart attack?
I did not think that was the case- I thought no response

EMT Nuttall says- cold to touch
No breathing, no pulse, fingers white and stiff- signs of hypothermia
No signs of life

But- body temp was measured as 80F. Who measured and at what time?

KR mentions taking a piece of glass from JOKs nose and him bleeding- that implies liquid blood. Liquid blood moving on the nose and signs of frostbite do not square with each other. IMO

A person’s body temp would not be 80F if the had been in subfreezing temperatures for over five hours. Dropping below 80F would happen within one or two hours.

Autopsy does not mention frostbite-which would be permanent damage due to loss of blood and death of tissue due to cold exposure- Did that happen or no?

How long was he outside?
If he was not outside for the full time between 12:30-6AM- where was he?

And my question- if he suffered traumatic brain injury resulting in seizures- could those muscle contractions and brain electrical impulses have kept him warmer?? How much/ how long?

Still so many questions, which of courses supports Reasonable Doubt but does not get any closer to explaining what actually happened here
IMO

 

[ShadyLady]

SHORT ANSWER - No. The defense has NOT said they agree to that time and location for those actions by KR's vehicle.

FURTHER EXPLANATION - All that is tied to the terminology of "key cycle 1162" and where and when it occurred. The cw has claimed a specific time for 1162, placing it somewhere in the 12:30 +/- 10 minutes window in the vicinity of Fairview. The def so far has argued that the placement of 1162 doesn't fit the cw's own timeline.

In T1, the same claim was made by the prosec, the def argued the timeline was not reliable, and the def later (in their own case) provided strong evidence that 1162 happened at a very different time (and place). Their evidence was based on the cw's own definition of 1164 which was much later and was fairly certain (derived around the time it was made). 1164 was at the sallyport. The def then worked backwards 2 cycles from there. IIRC their idea was that 1162 -- the 3 pt-turn aka turning the vehicle around, followed a bit later by a long backing up going fairly fast -- occurred when the vehicle was dropped off at sallyport after being towed there, which makes perfect sense.

I expect in T2 we are seeing the same things play out. Just like in T1, in T2 the same claim was made by the prosec, and the def argued the timeline was not reliable. Although I didn't listen for it, I would assume that in defining key cycles in T2, the place and time of 1164 was also put into evidence, as it was very objective evidence. But we have yet to hear that 1162 counter-claim presented as evidence by the def in T2.

There's an obvious reason for that. They've just gotten to presenting their own evidence this week, and have covered a LOT of ground, all of it very crucial. So my guess is we just haven't gotten there yet (although until we hear it, it's always possible they have decided it doesn't hold up for some reason and we won't hear it again). I felt it was important, persuasive, and easy to understand -- and aligned very much with things the cw themselves had defined -- so I expect we will hear it again. But who knows until we get there.

I still have not seen where they account for backing up SUV from Karen's dad's home, and driving forward onto the flat bed truck. Then getting to the sally port, starting the car again and backing up to pull into the sally port. Have they accounted for any of these movements?