Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[haden]

Ok, I summarised what we discovered here tonight re GNR dogs route

The dogs route photo from the Daily Mail.

Portuguese GNR dogs searches 4th and 8th May 2007



The GNR dogs are tracking (trailing) dogs that would follow the scent of a person on the ground and not if the person is been carried. They need to start 'working' at the last place the person was seen.
Only couple of hours after Madeleine went missing, on May 4th 2007 two dogs were employed, the two dogs separatelly showed a route around the holiday complex and both stopped at a car park next to OC.
They were given Madeleines piece of clothing and they followed Madeleine's scent and they lost it at a car park.
The operation was repeated on the May 8 with different 2 dogs and these dogs also went the same route, around the building and to a car park.
These dogs show the freshest route Madeleine went by walking, all of the dogs after given to sniff of Madeleine's clothes went outside of the apartment 5A, through the main doors.
They all followed the same route, in between buildings, and around the complex to the car park.
This would indicate that Madeleine's freshest route, according to the tracking dogs was around the block and to a car park. This would also mean that Madeleine was not being carried, she was either walking there, or was walking holding someone's hand.
The third solution, which needs to be investigated, would be Madeleine possibly being put to a push chair where her feet were touching the ground.
The parking area next to the OC was never investigated, in terms who usually parks there and who parked there on the night Madeleine went missing.
What is known is that OC staff often parks their cars in this parking area.
Note: Madeleine could not walk off and wander herself due to the apartment window and shutter being open, which Madeleine could not perform by herself.

NOTE: All 4 of the dogs went through the main (front) doors which were locked when Madeleine went missing

 

[jigzy]

None of these people went to a car park and drove away as these dogs indicated.

And I don't believe the McCanns would give the dog handlers the wrong piece of clothing.

The sniffer dogs might have indicated a trail either way, from the car park to the apartment or vice versa as considered previously. Didn't the family go to Sagres one day? Did they take a taxi? Where did the taxi pick up/drop them off?

 

[haden]

The sniffer dogs might have indicated a trail either way, from the car park to the apartment or vice versa as considered previously. Didn't the family go to Sagres one day? Did they take a taxi? Where did the taxi pick up/drop them off?

No, the tracking dogs work from the place where the person was last seen and very soon after the person is last seen.. in the link I posted earlier

I did not find any mention in the files or Kate's book about the Sagres trip, so it might be a myth

 

[jigzy]

Does this type of sniffer dog ever pick up on cadaverine and follow the scent of this?

 

[haden]

Does this type of sniffer dog ever pick up on cadaverine and follow the scent of this?

Only if the dead people would be walking )) ..they sniff the ground, not the air..

But isn't it the strangest thing that the dogs went through the main doors, not the patio.. and the main doors were locked when Madeleine went missing.

That would possibly mean, whoever is involved, he had the key!

 

[Estelle]

Ah found more information.

Sounds to me like your right a load of rubbish.

The guy wasnt even working in the OC at the time. They are saying he was sacked so he took a child out of revenge.....POSSIBLY.

Jeez........really.....he only lived 15 minutes away from PDL so he could have easily been there just talking to friends anything if he used his phone.

Oh well shant get too excited.

The guy is dead 4 years he cant answer can he. Easy patsy.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/44...-killed-in-tractor-accident-say-shock-reports

IMO the PJ are under judicial secrecy so they would not have released this report.

I think CdeM are having fun with this report.

Has anyone thought that if this report is true, then Maddie is probably dead too! Perhaps the journalist's aim was to get that message across to the public in a roundabout way.

The McCanns would not like it as they have to promote Maddie as being alive so their fund will not dry up. I also think this journalist is subtly explaining using this example why the PJ are looking for Maddie's body. They have not come out and said that exactly but that is the implication.

WED 30 OCT 2013 MCCANNS AWARE OF HOTEL SUSPECT

McCanns: Hotel worker reports are 'PURE SPECULATION'

Wed 30 Oct 2013

The 40-year-old had been fired from the Ocean Club holiday complex in Praia de Luz where the McCanns were staying when their daughter disappeared on May 3, 2007, and may have been seeking revenge, Portuguese daily Correio da Manha said. He died in a tractor accident in 2009 but police have interviewed his widow as part of their new investigation, according to the newspaper.

Clarence Mitchell, who represents Kate and Gerry McCann, said: "We are aware of reports in the Portuguese press. "They are pure speculation and the McCanns are not going to give a running commentary on every new report."

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-10-30/mccanns-hotel-worker-reports-are-pure-speculation/

 

[Inana]

Welcome Fierljeppen!

I have to ask, do you Fierljeppen?

 

[jigzy]

Only if the dead people would be walking )) ..they sniff the ground, not the air..

But isn't it the strangest thing that the dogs went through the main doors, not the patio.. and the main doors were locked when Madeleine went missing.

That would possibly mean, whoever is involved, he had the key!

A small suitcase on wheels/ pushchair/ wheelie holdall would go unnoticed along that route from the apartment to the car park with a deceased child, giving off cadaverine, IMO. In fact it would be the BEST route. Cool breezy evenings, few people about, nobody would be alerted by either of these being pulled/pushed along in between those bougainvillea lined walls. The front of the apartment, with the child's window, is overlooked, so exit into car near her window is too likely to cause suspicion.

Blue holdall?

Jmo.

 

[Estelle]

5. Gerald McCann knew he was seen by Smiths, so he told Tanner to invent a fake sighting of a similar looking man in the moment when McCann had an iron clad alibi, because he was talking with Wilkins.

Excellent. This one should be added to the list. It is the only one which really makes any sense. I have always thought this could have been the case.

 

[haden]

A small suitcase on wheels/ pushchair/ wheelie holdall would go unnoticed along that route from the apartment to the car park with a deceased child, giving off cadaverine, IMO. In fact it would be the BEST route. Cool breezy evenings, few people about, nobody would be alerted by either of these being pulled/pushed along in between those bougainvillea lined walls. The front of the apartment, with the child's window, is overlooked, so exit into car is too likely to cause suspicion.

Blue holdall?

Jmo.

these dogs would not react on cadaver, they search for the scent of the person whose scent was given to them to sniff and is on the ground. She has to be touching the ground with her body. This is impossible through a surface with wheels. By this time even if she was dead her cadaver would not develop.
Only if she is walking on the ground then it is 100% her scent followed.

And the pushchair only if her feet are all along touching the ground ( that was my idea)
I don't think the holldall would work or a suitcase, her body is not touching the ground..not even sure of a pushchair but I thought if the pushchair is too small for her then maybe her feet are touching the ground..

But most possibly it would be her walking!

I think anti McCanns would need to invent a new theory.. of them giving her away to someone lol lol

 

[CHERIE.T]

My nephew is just turned 4, has problems sleeping and eating, and he is a very much a wanted child.

I have two families for friends who both have IVF children, these children are not different to other children..

Sorry but I see all of your theories as very conspirational with no touch of reality.

There is no proof Madeleine is dead. And in reality there is 50/50 possibility that she is either still alive or dead.

B b m
Thank God for common sense and thank you.

 

[haden]

anyway, there is a new article from Portugals CdM
( TABLOID ALERT!)
Google translation
Research : Judicial Police looking corpse child
Suspect in abduction of Maddie pardoned
Jorge Sampaio forgave expulsion immigrant who may then have abducted Maddie .
Today , 01h00N of votes ( 0 ) Comments ( 0 )
By: Eduardo Damaso / Tania Laranjo



*
The Cape Verdean immigrant who is suspected of having kidnapped Maddie received a pardon from the President of the Republic , Jorge Sampaio , and was not expelled from the country in 1996 , as determined justice .
The man , who was then 26, was indicted in a case of theft . The additional penalty would be expulsion from our country to your home country : Cape Verde . Around Christmas and then as was normal in the 90's , the then President of the Republic chose a number of citizens who have just benefited from judicial pardons .
According to the CM found the immigrant was then to Lagos , where he eventually build their lives with his wife , a Portuguese national . In 2007 , around the time of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann , the man had been fired from the restaurant at Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz had motive for the abduction and means to do so. He knew that the girl's parents and friends dined late , even knew the routines " lookout " to rooms .
Police still believe that although the goal was never to kill Maddie , the truth is that something may have escaped the control of the suspect . Scared all the media attention the case , you may have been forced to ' silence ' the child . The Judiciary is trying to figure out what will be done to the corpse .
The death of this man , in 2009 in a tractor accident , now comes shuffling research . It is only recently that the track was then after your phone has been located near the village at the time of the abduction . The antennas aware of its location next to the apartment. The PJ has heard the family to understand the behavior of the suspect in the days immediately following . Also try to understand the places that have been and where you have hidden the child , then three years.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

My nephew is just turned 4, has problems sleeping and eating, and he is a very much a wanted child.

I have two families for friends who both have IVF children, these children are not different to other children..

Sorry but I see all of your theories as very conspirational with no touch of reality.

There is no proof Madeleine is dead. And in reality there is 50/50 possibility that she is either still alive or dead.

Statistically, you are incorrect. Any child that was 'abducted' this long ago and still be alive is less than a 50% chance. <modsnip>

 

[jigzy]

these dogs would not react on cadaver, they search for the scent of the person whose scent was given to them to sniff and is on the ground. She has to be touching the ground with her body. This is impossible through a surface with wheels. By this time even if she was dead her cadaver would not develop.
Only if she is walking on the ground then it is 100% her scent followed.

And the pushchair only if her feet are all along touching the ground ( that was my idea)
I don't think the holldall would work or a suitcase, her body is not touching the ground..not even sure of a pushchair but I thought if the pushchair is too small for her then maybe her feet are touching the ground..

But most possibly it would be her walking!

I think anti McCanns would need to invent a new theory.. of them giving her away to someone lol lol

I really fail to see the logic in your 'touching the ground' info. How on Earth would the dogs differentiate between for example, someone in thick soled boots and a wheelchair user in flip flops? I recall at the time it was explained that the dogs can pick up on airborne scent that gets caught on certain things such as plants and textured walls, etc. nothing to do with feet on the ground. Jmo

And no, I don't believe that the poor girl left that apartment alive and walking - not for one minute.

 

[haden]

And no, I don't believe that the poor girl left that apartment alive and walking - not for one minute.

It is up to you what to believe but the proof is there, the nearest search to the time of her disappearance and the dogs were following her track on the ground. So far, most probably walking..
But how and why, this is questionable..

For me the more interesting is that the dogs went through the main doors!

 

[Estelle]

A small suitcase on wheels/ pushchair/ wheelie holdall would go unnoticed along that route from the apartment to the car park with a deceased child, giving off cadaverine, IMO. In fact it would be the BEST route. Cool breezy evenings, few people about, nobody would be alerted by either of these being pulled/pushed along in between those bougainvillea lined walls. The front of the apartment, with the child's window, is overlooked, so exit into car near her window is too likely to cause suspicion.

Blue holdall?

Jmo.

I agree with your points of view.

IMO Maddie's dead body was removed in Gerry's blue sports bag (which Gerry told the PJ had been stolen from him) from the apartment to a car to be taken somewhere else - probably to a fridge/freezer. The PJ are sure that the body was moved more than just once before being put in the boot of the Renault Scenic many days later.

 

[Estelle]

It is up to you what to believe but the proof is there, the nearest search to the time of her disappearance and the dogs were following her track on the ground. So far, most probably walking..
But how and why, this is questionable..

For me the more interesting is that the dogs went through the main doors!

So why did Kate and Gerry tell the PJ that they left the other door unlocked?

Who could have had the key to that door? Cleaners, maintenance men and Gerry and Kate McCann!

From what I have read all cleaners and maintenance men have been ruled out ages ago.

So that leaves dead TractorMan and the McCanns still in the loop.

Also, the GNR Sniffer dogs IMO could not detect the difference between a DEAD or an ALIVE BODY.

Why couldn't Maddie have walked in that direction from the apartment to the car park before her death when she was alive?

IMO for Maddie to be walking with an abductor and holding his hand indicates to me that she must have known her abductor.

 

[haden]

I really fail to see the logic in your 'touching the ground' info. How on Earth would the dogs differentiate between for example, someone in thick soled boots and a wheelchair user in flip flops? I recall at the time it was explained that the dogs can pick up on airborne scent that gets caught on certain things such as plants and textured walls, etc. nothing to do with feet on the ground. Jmo

And no, I don't believe that the poor girl left that apartment alive and walking - not for one minute.

TRAILING DOGS

The trailing dog is often referred to as a "tracking" dog, although "tracking" and "trailing" are not the same to the purist. The trailing dog is directed to find a specific person by following minute particles of human tissue or skin cells cast off by the person as he or she travels. These heavier-than-air particles, which contain this person's scent, will normally be close to the ground or on nearby foliage, so the trailing dog will frequently have its "nose the ground," unlike the air scent dog.

A Bloodhound is typically trained for scent discrimination. Each dog is usually worked in a harness, on a leash, and given an uncontaminated scent article (such as a piece of clothing) belonging to the missing person. The dog follows that scent and no other. At times, the dog may track, following the person's footsteps, or air scent, and home in on the subject's scent.

http://www.ussartf.org/dogs_search_rescue.htm

 

[Estelle]

I really fail to see the logic in your 'touching the ground' info. How on Earth would the dogs differentiate between for example, someone in thick soled boots and a wheelchair user in flip flops? I recall at the time it was explained that the dogs can pick up on airborne scent that gets caught on certain things such as plants and textured walls, etc. nothing to do with feet on the ground. Jmo

And no, I don't believe that the poor girl left that apartment alive and walking - not for one minute.

I agree. It has nothing to do with "feet on the ground" as shoes would protect the scent from touching the ground. (Don't tell me she was walking in bare feet!)

It is airborne scent they pick up on. The first dogs used by the GNR are referred to as SNIIFFER DOGS.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

In his statement, Antonio states "the dog will confirm all the odours it scents, certainly alerting to those that are most active"

I suggest you read the statements of all the GNR police.

These dogs cannot pick up whether a person is dead or alive.

Also, did the towell given to the GNR for the dogs to sniff from actually belong to Maddie?

Why didn't Gerry give them Maddie's clothes to sniff?

 

[DeDee]

< respectfully snipped for relevance >

December 2007

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id33.html​

But police in Portugal have long been suspicious about British Government involvement in the investigation and fear further political interference.

"Friends of the McCanns' friends contacted the media in the UK, and by early morning they were carrying the news. Gerry's sister in Scotland alerted the British Consulate in the Algarve, the British Embassy in Lisbon and the Foreign Office in London."

The British media began their harsh criticisms of the investigation immediately. In October, when Amaral accused the British police of following only the leads that would exonerate the McCann's; Amaral was released from his duties.

It's no secret with regards to allegations of corruption in the Portuguese police department. Is it possible that a scent could have been planted? I get the impression that the McCanns just rubbed them up the wrong way right from the word go, and that got worse when criticisms concerning their initial investigation set in. I read in the Telegraph yesterday that the Inspector admitted that they'd been suspicious of the McCanns right at the beginning, mainly because they got the media involved. He also seemed irked because they left the children. So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the investigation was clouded by that dislike, especially when you also figure in someone like Amaral. Who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him.

No way was evidence planted. IIRC, in July, the dogs gave several alerts in and around the apartment including but not limited to behind the sofa and in the parents' closet. In August, the cadaver dog alerted on the exterior of their rented Renault and inside the boot where the McCann's claimed rotten meat and soiled diapers had been leaking. When tested, it was found to actually be little Maddie's spinal fluid. Let that sink in a minute.

One or both dogs alerted on Maddie's Cuddle Cat, Kate's clothes and her Bible that were confiscated a few days earlier. Yet, Scotland Yard scoffed at these reliable findings.

Meet Keela and Eddie


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