Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[mrsward]

Would it make any sense that

She was killed by the abductor in the apartment..taken from the apartment but put on the floor half way to there location to either make/take a phone call.. picked back up
Would the dogs get the scent from that ?

 

[Estelle]

anyway, there is a new article from Portugals CdM
( TABLOID ALERT!)
Google translation
Research : Judicial Police looking corpse child
Suspect in abduction of Maddie pardoned
Jorge Sampaio forgave expulsion immigrant who may then have abducted Maddie .
Today , 01h00N of votes ( 0 ) Comments ( 0 )
By: Eduardo Damaso / Tania Laranjo

My comments are in bold

The Cape Verdean immigrant who is suspected of having kidnapped Maddie received a pardon from the President of the Republic , Jorge Sampaio , and was not expelled from the country in 1996 , as determined justice .
The man , who was then 26, was indicted in a case of theft . The additional penalty would be expulsion from our country to your home country : Cape Verde . Around Christmas and then as was normal in the 90's , the then President of the Republic chose a number of citizens who have just benefited from judicial pardons .

Since when do thieves become child kidnappers when he did not even leave a ransom note?

According to the CM found the immigrant was then to Lagos , where he eventually build their lives with his wife , a Portuguese national .

In 2007 , around the time of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann , the man had been fired from the restaurant at Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz had motive for the abduction and means to do so. He knew that the girl's parents and friends dined late , even knew the routines " lookout " to rooms
How could the author of this article possibly be able to state that as a fact?

Police still believe that although the goal was never to kill Maddie , the truth is that something may have escaped the control of the suspect . Scared all the media attention the case , you may have been forced to ' silence ' the child .

This is all an assumption of the writer. His reputation is being desecrated after his death when he cannot defend himself.

The Judiciary is trying to figure out what will be done to the corpse.

IMO this is the ulterior motive for this article designed to explain why the PJ are now looking for a corpse.

The death of this man , in 2009 in a tractor accident , now comes shuffling research . It is only recently that the track was then after your phone has been located near the village at the time of the abduction . The antennas aware of its location next to the apartment.

How can that be? I do not think it could identify that exact location
The PJ has heard the family to understand the behavior of the suspect in the days immediately following . Also try to understand the places that have been and where you have hidden the child , then three years.

Many assumptions. I wonder if this man really exists.

I am wondering about the veracity of this report.

Is the Portuguese media now playing games with the British by publishing falsehoods of a suspected abductor but in this case, they are looking for a body and not an alive child.

It will be very interesting to see what happens next with this story of an ex-thief becoming a kidnapper and not leaving a ransom note.

 

[Estelle]

Would it make any sense that

She was killed by the abductor in the apartment..taken from the apartment but put on the floor half way to there location to either make/take a phone call.. picked back up
Would the dogs get the scent from that ?

Cadaver scent of a small body takes up to one hour to develop.

 

[Estelle]

< respectfully snipped for relevance >
"Friends of the McCanns' friends contacted the media in the UK, and by early morning they were carrying the news. Gerry's sister in Scotland alerted the British Consulate in the Algarve, the British Embassy in Lisbon and the Foreign Office in London."

The British media began their harsh criticisms of the investigation immediately. In October, when Amaral accused the British police of following only the leads that would exonerate the McCann's; Amaral was released from his duties.

No way was evidence planted. IIRC, in July, the dogs gave several alerts in and around the apartment including but not limited to behind the sofa and in the parents' closet. In August, the cadaver dog alerted on the exterior of their rented Renault and inside the boot where the McCann's claimed rotten meat and soiled diapers had been leaking. When tested, it was found to actually be little Maddie's spinal fluid. Let that sink in a minute.

One or both dogs alerted on Maddie's Cuddle Cat, Kate's clothes and her Bible that were confiscated a few days earlier. Yet, Scotland Yard scoffed at these reliable findings.

snipped...I found this as I am trying to learn more about CSF.

CEREBROSPINAL FLUID

Albumin concentration in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and plasma was determined in 44 cadavers divided into three groups on the basis of death agony duration. The same was determined in a control group of 42 patients with no demonstrable neurological disease.

Following Schuller's method, the evaluation of the blood CSF barrier permeability was based upon the rate of albumin transfer from plasma to CSF.

An average increase of 9% in blood CSF barrier permeability was found in cases of a long-duration death agony but not in cases of short-duration death agony (sudden deaths) or in the control group.

We consider these results to be related to the hypoxia and hypercapnia which characterize the agonic suffering period.

Therefore, we conclude that the postmortem determination of the rate of albumin transfer from plasma to CSF could be a reliable indicator of the duration of the agonic process.

http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/6642340/reload=0;jsessionid=rwMHlmk2jJTbBWjDZMVa.50

I sincerely hope that Maddie's death was a sudden one.

I would like to know more about what it means forensically when spinal fluid is found.

 

[Linda7NJ]

None of these people went to a car park and drove away as these dogs indicated.

And I don't believe the McCanns would give the dog handlers the wrong piece of clothing.

Didn't they, at some point, claim all the children shared a single toothbrush?
IMO I certainly wouldn't trust doctors that claimed they had one toothbrush for their three children to share... So I can fully imagine them handing over clothing from another child.






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[Linda7NJ]

I guess it was a case of:

Sniffer dogs track scent of person (unknown if Madeleine or not) around the block where she was staying = yes, she was here and she would have walked around the area during her stay, but this scent may not be hers because of the contaminated stuff inside the apartment, and hey, Tanner says she saw the guy go thattaway so let's focus on a child being carried not wandering around lost leaving a scent.

and

Cadaver and blood dog = OMG discovery inside the apartment where the family were staying yet no previous dead people there.

Although months apart, I know which one would get my attention. Jmo.

The one with the proven track record? That's where I'd place my bet!
The dogs IMO have the most credibility of all




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[Linda7NJ]

these dogs would not react on cadaver, they search for the scent of the person whose scent was given to them to sniff and is on the ground. She has to be touching the ground with her body. This is impossible through a surface with wheels. By this time even if she was dead her cadaver would not develop.
Only if she is walking on the ground then it is 100% her scent followed.

And the pushchair only if her feet are all along touching the ground ( that was my idea)
I don't think the holldall would work or a suitcase, her body is not touching the ground..not even sure of a pushchair but I thought if the pushchair is too small for her then maybe her feet are touching the ground..

But most possibly it would be her walking!

I think anti McCanns would need to invent a new theory.. of them giving her away to someone lol lol

I don't understand where this " her feet had to be on the ground" is coming from. Im familiar with dogs that tracked the scent for miles and miles and the person was traveling in a car.


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[Linda7NJ]

Would it make any sense that

She was killed by the abductor in the apartment..taken from the apartment but put on the floor half way to there location to either make/take a phone call.. picked back up
Would the dogs get the scent from that ?

Why would someone ( abductor ) walk around stashing and moving and finally leave with a body?

Not buying it... Only people with a motive to stash & remove a deceased child from the apartment was the McCanns. IMO


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[DeDee]

SPINAL FLUID

Albumin concentration in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and plasma was determined in 44 cadavers divided into three groups on the basis of death agony duration. The same was determined in a control group of 42 patients with no demonstrable neurological disease.

Following Schuller's method, the evaluation of the blood CSF barrier permeability was based upon the rate of albumin transfer from plasma to CSF.

An average increase of 9% in blood CSF barrier permeability was found in cases of a long-duration death agony but not in cases of short-duration death agony (sudden deaths) or in the control group.

We consider these results to be related to the hypoxia and hypercapnia which characterize the agonic suffering period.

Therefore, we conclude that the postmortem determination of the rate of albumin transfer from plasma to CSF could be a reliable indicator of the duration of the agonic process.

http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/6642340/reload=0;jsessionid=rwMHlmk2jJTbBWjDZMVa.50

I sincerely hope that Maddie's death was a sudden one.

I would like to know more about what it means forensically when spinal fluid is found.

Spinal fluid or cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) circulates through a sac called the dura. CSF circulates in and around the brain and spinal cord acting as a shock absorber. Head trauma that punctures the dura is the most common cause for CSF leaks. However, any hole in the dura will leak fluid.

I suggest Maddie's CSF leaked from her nose and/or ears, perhaps from head trauma or possibly from ligature strangulation. Would freezing and thawing the body have an impact on CSF leakage? Is there a physician in the house?

Nine days before her 4th birthday, Maddie was reported missing on May 4, 2007. The Renault was rented 24 days later. Where was Maddie for those 24 days that her CSF would be significantly leaking into the boot of the Renault?

 

[Estelle]

With credit to Beachy who posted this on the old 3A's forum in about 2008 and it was re-posted on another forum.

She used to be a US police officer and the forum expert on forensics

I found it to be very informative and interesting

"There are several different types of fluids present in the body at the time a person dies, including blood, synovial fluid in the joints, urine in the bladder, mucus in the lungs or other parts of the body, cerebrospinal fluid, even ocular fluid in the eyes.

After death, these fluids begin to break down rapidly as putrefaction and decay occur. Several weeks after death, say three weeks, the length of time that Madeleine McCann had been dead before her parents hired the Renault Scenic, the primary types of "corpse fluids" that would be found in a body would be two: sera, the liquid part of the blood, which would contain white blood cells that could be a source of DNA (somewhat surprisingly, mature red blood cells lack a nucleus and therefore do not contain DNA); and an exudate from the lungs that occurs after a person dies and may be frothy or bloody-looking and would also contain cells that could be a source of nuclear DNA.

Although either of these two "corpse fluids" could be a source of nuclear DNA, the DNA could be degraded due to heat, exposure to sunlight or cleaning fluids, or merely the passage of time.

We have read in press reports both that "corpse fluids" were found on a piece of carpeting in the Renault Scenic, and that a sample of blood determined to be Madeleine's was also found there.

At this point we are prisoners of the press, as with so many other things in this case, and do not know which (if either) is correct. Any blood found in the boot of the Scenic would have been there as the result of transfer from an item that was bled on whilst Madeleine was alive or very shortly after her death. For example, if Madeleine had died of some injury that caused her to bleed and her body had been wrapped in a towel or sheet, and that item had then been transported in the Scenic, blood could have been transferred to the boot of the car. Her body would not still have been xxxxxxxx 20 days after she died.

The "corpse fluids" mentioned above could also have been transferred to the Scenic in this manner, or directly from Madeleine's body. Any post-mortem fluids, however, would be likely to occur in smaller quantity than blood from a xxxxxxxx wound serious enough to kill a child. Therefore, the presence of either blood or corpse fluids in the Scenic would not require that Madeleine's body itself had been transported in the car; she could have been buried or disposed of some place and items that had been in contact with her bloody or dead body could have been carried in the car at some point.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Spinal fluid or cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) circulates through a sac called the dura. CSF circulates in and around the brain and spinal cord acting as a shock absorber. Head trauma that punctures the dura is the most common cause for CSF leaks. However, any hole in the dura will leak fluid.

I suggest Maddie's CSF leaked from her nose and/or ears, perhaps from head trauma or possibly from ligature strangulation. Would freezing and thawing the body have an impact on CSF leakage? Is there a physician in the house?

Nine days before her 4th birthday, Maddie was reported missing on May 4, 2007. The Renault was rented 24 days later. Where was Maddie for those 24 days that her CSF would be significantly leaking into the boot of the Renault?

As horrible as the thought is... I believe her decomposing tiny little body was indeed in that trunk... Reeking, just like Casey Anthony's ...24 days later.
The smell wasn't rotting meat that fell out of a shopping bag, it wasn't dirty diapers, it wasn't squirrel, and it wasn't old pizza... IMO it was Madeleine.


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[Estelle]

Madeleine McCann suspect 'may have died in tractor accident'
30 October 2013

"A suspect in the Madeleine McCann case died in a tractor accident before having been questioned by police. The former employee of the Ocean Club has cropped up on a list of suspects that have been selected for questioning due to phone records analysed by police.

The man, whose name the police have yet to release, died in the accident in 2009. He was sacked by the Ocean Club&#8217;s management and a motive of revenge against the hotel is being proposed by Portuguese media as a reason for Madeleine&#8217;s disappearance.

Phone records from 2007 show the suspect was in Praia da Luz at the time of Madeleine&#8217;s disappearance but surpisingly he was not on the former employee list given to the police at the time.

Officers already have questioned the man&#8217;s widow and may search for the girl&#8217;s body based on their suspicions.

"Police suspicions about the former Ocean Club employee came about during the case review by a police team from Oporto," according to Correio da Manha.

It is thought that this was the key piece of evidence given to the judiciary to enable the case to be reopened."

http://algarvedailynews.com/news/359-madeleine-mccann-suspect-may-have-died-in-tractor-accident

 

[Estelle]

Why a Whitewash Won't Wash

http://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/why-a-whitewash-wont-wash/

Interesting article

http://aboutmatttaylor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-stench-of-perversion-is-getting-too.html?spref=fb

Information from Sky today:

http://news.sky.com/story/1160833/savile-chauffeur-david-smith-found-dead

 

[goldengirl57]

I think it's quite clear from the statement that he was asked if he had seen anything or anyone unusual. And he gave a considered response. It's hardly the same as someone ringing the police to finger somebody as per Vincent Tabak.

Not that it's important, but I don't find it odd that he didn't know the surname of a colleague. There are lots of people I only know by their first names.

No i dont buy it. Why mention a sighting of GYPSIES FOUR MONTHS PREVIOUSLY to MAY? Thats like the end of December for something happening in May...

He said it was a usual sight to see and not actually in PDL.

I dont get the significance to what he says, its almost like he had to mention GYPSY....

As to work colleague. Hardly. My husband works in maintenance and knows everyone. YOu have to as you might be handing over stuff that needs to be done on a particular shift........

No sorry just find it odd that he would even REMEMBER seeing a few gypsy men FOUR MONTHS prior....but I respect your views.

 

[goldengirl57]

The new Tractorman scenario actually makes a lot of sense to me, since it possesses a clear motive (retaliation against the park by a disgruntled employee after being sacked) and a clear opportunity (by a very knowledgeable perpetrator with specific information about the park). How can one best retaliate against a vacation park, well just induce a terrible event like this and bookings will drop to zero. Al it needs is: observe the families from the car park near the Ocean club entrance, enter through the open patio door, suggest the kidnap by opening the window, snatch the child, leave through the front door, go round the block (per sniffer dogs), check whether coast is clear on the uphill road, cross the street when the coast is clear and walk to your car in the car park (where the sniffer dogs lost the traces). After that anything could have happened of this in principle innocent 'kidnap', but the bizar media frenzy in the following days might have scared the kidnapper so much, that he decided to kill Maddie and hide her body forever.

How much simpler can we get?

Before you say that disgruntled staff doesn't do this, note that disgruntled employees can do very bad things to the company they work for (famous case in the Netherlands where Ferdi E. kidnapped and killed one of the Albert Heyn CEOs. Motive, revenge to his former colleagues and no relation to Albert Heyn)).

And hey, he might not have had murder intentions at the start and only wanted to suggest a real kidnap to damage the park's reputation, but actually the McCanns calling Sky and inducing the Frenzy could have forced him to it in the end.

Why are there no traces of this man in the apartment, simple, he wore gloves. And secondly, because so many people (20+) were running in and out the apartment before forensic managed to seal it off, that so many traces were disturbed and lost anyway.

Also, the car park from where a man has been seen observing the apartment earlier in the week, is an ideal to spot to park your car. You can easily observe the movements from all the parents and wait for the right window of opportunity. Also nobody will see and connect your car directly to 5A (contrary to when you park it in front of 5A). Then the front door exit is much safer as an escape, since if you would encounter one of the parents coming up, the patio door exit is risky since you'll meet them head on. Also turning left, rather than right (shorter route) and then going around the block is much safer since you minimize the distance (and the risk of an encounter) between the car park and your location at the end of the foot path in front of 5A.

And maybe the suspicious Tractor accident was suicide induced by not being able to cope with the tragedy anymore...

It all fits and could be the real deal.

Then surely his mobile phone would have PINGED more often in PDL if he was stalking the McCanns or the complex. Not only that he was KNOWN to the employees of PDL so I would assume one would have seen him hanging about acting suspiciously.

What i find odd is, when did he get the sack and why does anyone know?

 

[goldengirl57]

Indeed. Some people don't want to sleuth this case they just want to point everything towards the McCanns, no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched it is. Also, what is irritating, is if the McCanns are innocent then the guilty party must be clapping their hands with glee at all the distraction away from them.

Thats not true, i am try to SLEUTH the case, I would point you to my theory a few pages back about a possible MAINTENANCE man, who would have total access to every area, could EASILY hide a child (for example in the empty apartment above the McCanns which even the DOGS barked at), and would have full knowledge of the area.

Would also be a totally normal sight to see at any time of the day, so wouldnt even be odd if seen hanging around later in the evening with a bag...etc.....

But only one person answered it.

Its the second theory i have done now with no INTEREST. BOTH MY theorys have been FOR THE McCANNS.....................

 

[goldengirl57]

I completely agree with you!

But apparently the dogs would not follow Madeleine's scent if she was carried.
She had to be walking on her own.
Also this would be her freshest route.

I racked my brain around this for long but I cannot see any solution.

Unless she came out on her own and walked there on her own or someone holding her hands.

What is mostly confusing is the fact that 4 dogs went the same route. And the second set of dogs was sent 4 days apart. This is a big info. For me the most interesting in the files.

* Also the note from the dog handlers that they all went straight out..

Well its funny how one accepts the sniffer dogs have sniffed maddy walking to the supermarket etc, but totally ignore the dog sniffing and howling inside the apartment.......

 

[goldengirl57]

True, but they had no choice- G and K were the first ones there that evening.
Anyway,by that time, everyone had presumably mellowed out with beverages at the beach restaurant and white wine in the apartment.

Has anyone thought perhaps it wasnt the parents they were avoiding but perhaps the children?

 

[mrsward]

Why would someone ( abductor ) walk around stashing and moving and finally leave with a body?

Not buying it... Only people with a motive to stash & remove a deceased child from the apartment was the McCanns. IMO


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Hmmm wasnt really anything to buy there ? I was merely asking a question that i didnt know the answer to. .but thanks

 

[goldengirl57]

Are you guys saying for sure that if someone is carried they can't leave a scent ?

For me the only think that makes sense is maddy was taken out of the town by car. It makes more sense that she was alive . It is the only reason I can see why there is no trace of her body anywhere. It also explains why the sniffer picked up scent b to the car park . Not necessary it is Maddie's suppose . Could the dogs have picked up the abductor ?

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[modsnip]

IF they can be trusted to pick up a scent from outside where lots of people have walked, then how come they cant be trusted to scent a cadaver blood in the apartment etc.

The are BOTH dogs trained to pick up certain scents and obviously seem to be reliable in one aspect but not in another........:blushing: