Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[Linda7NJ]

It's always best to have an open mind, because it may come back to bite you on the bum.

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Wouldn't be the first time my bum has suffered bite marks!

( if I am wrong) ... But I don't believe I am


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[Redgoblin]

Wouldn't be the first time my bum has suffered bite marks!

( if I am wrong) ... But I don't believe I am


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What you do in your free time is your business lol

As far as theories go, I'm open to all possibilities, but as of yet I've yet to be really convinced with any I've seen. I'm not with or against team McCann.

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[haden]

Does anybody have a source where there was speculation about the PJ deliberately trying to incriminate the parents as per the hits the dogs made in the hire car, was this rumour put about by sleuths or tabloid press?

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IMO this is not true. PJ never done this.
They even questioned the dog handler about the dogs going around same places and alerting some place after several times passing without not alerting.

Plus PJ asked a question about the cuddle cut, cannot remember now but it was something why the dogs alerted on the cuddle cut only when the handler showed them to do so.

 

[Redgoblin]

IMO this is not true. PJ never done this.
They even questioned the dog handler about the dogs going around same places and alerting some place after several times passing without not alerting.

Plus PJ asked a question about the cuddle cut, cannot remember now but it was something why the dogs alerted on the cuddle cut only when the handler showed them to do so.

Thanks, it does look like PJ were professional, which IMO I've always believed anyway.

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[song22]

So what ever came of that report about one of the friends making inappropriate gestures and creeping out one of the women in the group? I saw someone posted this a while back and it definitely made me go, Wha?? Who was that guy and has that scenario been talked about much? What if it was just one of the tapas 7, the one who all the kids liked and he just did a really good job of covering his tracks somehow? But I guess that is the difficulty. The others would have noticed him missing surely. They were all together all night right?

 

[haden]

ALERT: NOT THE WORST TABLOID BUT STILL A TABLOID

Madeleine McCann key suspect was heroin addict who burgled holiday flats to get fix
2 Nov 2013 00:00
Euclides Monteiro, who died aged 40 in a tractor accident four years ago, was a restaurant worker at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz



Revenge theory: Madeleine McCann

A key suspect in the Madeleine McCann investigation was a heroin addict who used to rob holiday apartments to fund his habit, it was claimed last night.

Euclides Monteiro, who died aged 40 in a tractor accident four years ago, was a restaurant worker at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz where Madeleine was snatched just before her fourth birthday in May 2007.

It is believed he may have been raiding rooms on the complex for drug money before he was finally sacked in 2006 for stealing from the tills.

Police are investigating the possibility that 6ft 2ins Monterio, known as Toni, may have been responsible in an act of revenge for losing his job. Another theory is that Madeleine was kidnapped and killed after disturbing a burglar.


Monteiro’s widow Luisa confirmed she had been quizzed by police but insisted her husband was innocent.

She said: “It is disgusting they are now looking for a dead man as a scapegoat.

“It’s very easy to blame someone who can’t defend themselves any more. My husband would never be capable of committing such a crime.”

Monteiro’s close friend Sergio Paulo, 44, a builder from Lagos, told how his pal’s drug habit made him to turn to crime – although he too doubted if he had taken Madeleine.

He said: “Toni was a good guy but had some serious drug problems. He would smoke heroin and became a slave to it.

“I know he would sometimes break into apartments and rob them. He was taking valuables from rooms at Ocean Club and selling them for drugs.”


Sergio said he remembered Monterio – an immigrant from the ex Portuguese colony of Cape Verde, off West Africa – mentioning Madeleine’s case when he saw a report in a local newspaper.

Sergio said: “He held up the paper and said, ‘I wonder who took her?’ He never said much else about it.”

In the three months up to Madeleine’s disappearance police said there was a four-fold increase in low-level burglaries around the holiday complex.


Monteiro’s home in Lagos was a just a 15 minute drive from the resort.

Mobile phone records placed him near the McCanns’ apartment around the time Madeleine vanished.

Monteiro had several convictions for theft but was saved from being deported in 1996 after a presidential pardon.

Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry, both 45, from Rothley, Leics, declined to comment yesterday on what they described as “speculation”.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-junkie-who-2666784

 

[haden]

Thanks, it does look like PJ were professional, which IMO I've always believed anyway.

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Yes, they are professionals. Except for the cowboy Amaral and his drinking buddies. But they are no longer the part of PJ

 

[hoshizora]

Were the dogs led into all the apartments of all the tapas 9 ?

I can see cross contamination occurring with any persons coming into direct contact with the crime scene, but not necessarily every person in the complex, or even the whole of the tapas 9. It would depend on who had direct contact with those areas.

They didn't alert to other apartments not because contamination is easy to detect but for the opposite reason and for the very reasons which I've just stated, your argument is moot considering you are trying to suggest I think it would be easy for contamination to occur, I never said that.

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I don't know if they checked all of the Tapas9. Hopefully someone who is more knowledgeable will be able to share what they know. I know that they checked other apartments.

I didn't mean you said it was easy. Sorry. I haven't had much sleep. I meant more or less that it seems like it would be easy to contaminate, especially as you said people who have had access to the scene, and especially since it's a holiday village where people come from all different work fields and countries. I just think that there would have been more alerts in other apartments.

The cadaver has to be there for it to emit the scent the dogs pick up on (I've heard anything from 1 minute to 1 hour, I am not sure). If someone placed their shirt on a cadaver and then placed it in the wardrobe where the scent was found, I wouldn't think it would "rub off" on the wardrobe or other articles, but I'm willing to be proved wrong. I think a body would actually have to be in the wardrobe to get the scent from the wardrobe as I think of it as the area of contact "grabbing" onto the scent, if that makes sense.

I would put blood down to possible accidents as that is very possible. People do have accidents and bleed a lot, and I'm sure my bedroom would show an alert for blood if investigated, but when the blood is found in the same place that an alert for a cadaver is shown, that says something different to me. I don't believe Keela went into the other apartments though, only Eddie did looking for the cadaver scent. I think Keela would have produced results in every apartment.

 

[song22]

Well, if it's true that tractorman was a heroin addict, that raises my suspicion of him beyond just some plan for "revenge" on the OC. Heroin can make you really crazy and maybe he thought he could sell her for money or something?

 

[haden]

Well, if it's true that tractorman was a heroin addict, that raises my suspicion of him beyond just some plan for "revenge" on the OC. Heroin can make you really crazy and maybe he thought he could sell her for money or something?

Do you know I was writing a post about this suspicion when I lost internet and lost the post and it was about this you mention. Heroin addict would sell his own mother for heroin. No wonder he is a suspect!

Then after losing the post I saw this article.

IMO if he was a heroin addict and he took Madeleine then he hasn't killed her. They don't kill people. No interest in that. He most probably sold her.

But I did not know one can 'smoke' heroin?

 

[hoshizora]

So what ever came of that report about one of the friends making inappropriate gestures and creeping out one of the women in the group? I saw someone posted this a while back and it definitely made me go, Wha?? Who was that guy and has that scenario been talked about much? What if it was just one of the tapas 7, the one who all the kids liked and he just did a really good job of covering his tracks somehow? But I guess that is the difficulty. The others would have noticed him missing surely. They were all together all night right?

Her husband was a friend of Gerry's from school (I think)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

I'm also interested in other people's thoughts on this. This report, plus the one by Yvonne Martin don't really cast David Payne in a good light. It's really creepy behaviour.

 

[song22]

Her husband was a friend of Gerry's from school (I think)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

I'm also interested in other people's thoughts on this. This report, plus the one by Yvonne Martin don't really cast David Payne in a good light. It's really creepy behaviour.

This was very interesting to read. I found it concerning that he was not very forthcoming with the police and could not remember what he was wearing that night! Seems hinky to me. He keeps referring to the original statements he gave the police--where are those? I'll see if I can find them, but if you have them handy, I'd love to see his statement from that night.

 

[Estelle]

There was no cadaver scent, these dogs both also alert to dry blood. ( from the mouth of their trainer)

And Madeleine did hurt herself and was bleeding during this holiday trip.

Please give us a link to these so-called FACTS.

 

[Karmady]

Do you know I was writing a post about this suspicion when I lost internet and lost the post and it was about this you mention. Heroin addict would sell his own mother for heroin. No wonder he is a suspect!

Then after losing the post I saw this article.

IMO if he was a heroin addict and he took Madeleine then he hasn't killed her. They don't kill people. No interest in that. He most probably sold her.

But I did not know one can 'smoke' heroin?

Same way you smoke crack. Heat it and inhale

 

[concernedmother]

Her husband was a friend of Gerry's from school (I think)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

I'm also interested in other people's thoughts on this. This report, plus the one by Yvonne Martin don't really cast David Payne in a good light. It's really creepy behaviour.

He would be on my POI list for sure.jmo

 

[concernedmother]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

During our holidays in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to took care to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, my daughter E. I was very clear about this, as having heard him say that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E. alone.

Actually this whole statement Katherine made is creepy. Sounds like the fathers were giving baths to children that werent theirs. I dont have a problem with dads giving their kids a bath but never another man doing it.

 

[Dee10]

From what I remember in the Cadaver Dog Handbook, the array of death chemicals are not easily transferred, meaning there has to be contact for a varied amount of time. I have speculated Maddie was behind the couch & in the wardrobe. I understand if Kate holding/craddling her & having transfer on her pants & cuddle cat. But, why not on her shirt? Was that washed, but the pants weren't? If she was lugging cuddle cat in her purse with the keys possibly transfer could have happened to the key pad if they were in contact for an extended period but that is just a guess as transfer doesn't happen easily from what I remember.

 

[Estelle]

So what ever came of that report about one of the friends making inappropriate gestures and creeping out one of the women in the group?

I saw someone posted this a while back and it definitely made me go, Wha?? Who was that guy and has that scenario been talked about much?

What if it was just one of the tapas 7, the one who all the kids liked and he just did a really good job of covering his tracks somehow? But I guess that is the difficulty. The others would have noticed him missing surely. They were all together all night right?

If you are talking about David Payne. He made a statement that he was in the apartment earlier that night but Kate and he disagreed whether it was for 30 seconds or 30 minutes.

On the 16th of May 2007, two doctor friends of the McCanns, and the Paynes, make a statement to Leicestershire Police (LP) in which they express their concern over sexually suggestive gestures made by David Payne on a previous holiday in Majorca. These alleged gestures are considered, by one of the witnesses, to be consistent with acts of paedophilia.

The statements are not sent from LP to the Policia Judiciária (PJ) until 24 October 2007 (arriving on 26 October 2007), 24 days after Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation.

In an interview with Correio da Manhã, published on 24 July 2008, Gonçalo Amaral states that the depositions arrived in May, but this refers to the date they arrived at LP.

Intriguingly, the letter from LP mentions the completion of a written questionnaire - by David and Fiona Payne - but it is unclear whether that questionnaire was supplied by the PJ or whether it was instigated by LP themselves. There appears to be no copy of the questionnaire anywhere in the PJ files.

Correio da Manhã reports, on 19 July 2008, that 'the depositions ... only entered the process in January 2008 ... At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.' However, this statement, about the depositions only entering the process in January 2008, does not appear to be supported by the PJ files themselves.

It is unknown whether these statements by the Gaspars were subject to any further follow-up by either LP or the PJ.

Also on this page are the statements of Yvonne Martin who expressed concerns about David Payne and the behaviour of the McCanns. It is understood these statements were followed up by Gonçalo Amaral, who notes in his book, 'The Truth of the Lie', that Leicestershire Police reported: "There is nothing incriminating in his past and, as we were able to verify, he has no criminal record."

Katherina Gaspar: Witness Statement, 16 May 2007

One night, on holidays, the adults, that is, the couples that I mentioned, were on a patio outside of the house where we were staying. We had been eating and drinking.

I was seated between Dave and Gerry who I believe were both speaking about Madeleine. I don't remember the conversation in its entirety, but it seemed they were discussing a possible scenario. I remember Dave telling Gerry something like "she", referring to Madeleine, "would do this".

When he mentioned "this", Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it inside and outside his mouth, while with the other hand he made a circle around his nipple, in a circulatory movement over his clothes. This was done in a provocative manner and carried an explicit insinuation in relation to what he was saying and doing.

I remember that I was shocked at this, and looked at Gerry, and also at Dave, to see their reactions. I looked around (page 4) as if saying "did anyone else hear this, or was it just me". There was a nervous silence registered in all the conversations and afterwards, everyone began talking again.

I never spoke to anyone about this, but I always felt that it was very strange and it wasn’t something that someone should do or say.

Besides this [incident], I remember that Dave did the same thing once again. When I refer to this, I want to clarify that it was during a conversation in which he was talking about an imaginary situation, though I could not say exactly what about. I believe that he was talking about his own daughter, Lily, though I'm not certain. He put one of his fingers in his mouth and slide it in and out, while the other hand drew a circle around his nipple in a provocative and sexual manner. I believe that he was referring to the way that Lily, would behave or do it.

I believe that he did this later on, during the holidays, but I cannot be sure. The only time, besides this one, that I was with Dave and Fiona was several weeks after the holidays, when Savio and I met up with Gerry, Kate, Dave and Fiona at a restaurant in Leicester.

I am absolutely certain that he said what he said and that he did the gestures that I referred, but that could have occurred in the restaurant in Leicester, though (page five) I believe that it was later on, in Majorca. When I heard Dave doing and making this a second time, I took it more seriously.

I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a manner different from me or from the others. I imagined that maybe he had visited Internet sites related to small children. In short, I thought that he was interested child on the internet.

During our holidays I was more attentive at bath time after hearing Dave saying that.

During our vacation in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children's baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to be careful and to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, to my daughter E*****. I was very clear about this, as having heard him saying that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E***** alone.

Leicestershire Police: Follow up to Gaspar statements PJ Files

Processos Vol. XIII
Pages 3909-3915

To: Ricardo Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

I read carefully the written statements given by David Payne but was not able to extract any other information besides what is already known.

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann's apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. Similarly he does not indicate for how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and he cannot remember if anyone else was there.

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.

He did not partake in the searches realised on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.

For many of the questions, he does not give a complete answer, affirming simply that he has already given this information/declaration to the Portuguese police.

I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband.

Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with "they conform to my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.

From Yvonne Martin, Social Worker

– When she was back home, following the case on English television, she saw the same individual and this time, her initial doubt faded and she concluded that she had seen the face in the course of her professional activity in child protection, not being able to discern if he was a suspect/arguido or witness

- She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database of the British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children

Upon visualising the photographs, she recognised David Anthony Payne, an individual who appeared in several photographs, as being the person she referred to in her statements and who she supposedly had known on another occasion.

She states that in the course of her contact with Madeleine's parents, described in detail in her previous statements, Kate told her that the child had been taken by a couple. During the meeting they had, the details of which are contained in her previous statement, she did not have the opportunity to ask in depth about this question nor about any other.

She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether David Payne was on that list.

The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.

"Payne is the last one to see her"

Correio da Manh㠖 When do testimonies concerning David Payne's behaviour indicating sexual practices with minors arrive?

Gonçalo Amaral – In May. Something went wrong with that group during a holiday: David Payne made revealing gestures concerning behaviour towards children. Even towards Maddie. We asked for information but it arrived after the 26th of October. They sent the information without giving it any importance.

What else remains unclear concerning David Payne?

He will be the last one to see Maddie alive after 5.30 p.m., when she leaves the crèche. He meets Gerry playing tennis and asks him about Kate and the children. Gerry answers that they are in the apartment and he goes there. He returns 30 minutes later. Kate says it was 30 seconds. There is something not quite right here.

A British doctor raised doubts about David Payne, describing behaviour that they deemed inappropriate and obscene. The suspicion, which concerned the matter of health care, led to monitoring when he bathed the children and preventing him from being close to her own daughter. Meanwhile, Payne comes to Portugal this week, in a lightning visit.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html

 

[Linda7NJ]

Same way you smoke crack. Heat it and inhale

Seems like a waste, I mean if you're going to do heroin, do it right...
I guess what I'm trying to say... Do real hardcore heroin addicts smoke it? I never heard if such a thing.


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[Estelle]

David Payne describes Madeleine, 24 April 2009

Extract from David Payne's rogatory statement to Leicestershire Police on 10 April 2008

"Mmm..., errr... Madeleine's, errr... a very striking, errr... beautiful child, I'd almost - if I want a better phrase - call her doll-like, you know. She was very, you know, I think, you know, very unique looking child, errr... she'd got very pretty, you know, blonde hair, errr... in a bob, she was quite a petite, errr... child and, you know, she was very bubbly, very, errr... you know, she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine, errr... and, you know, she, she was, you know, Kate and Gerry's, you know, pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know, with IVF and everything and, you know, Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know, the iris defect, errr... but, you know, she was certainly a happy go lucky child, you know, she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know, she played very happily with Lily and, you know, indeed the other children. She was, you know, very... she is a very beautiful child and good fun."

(...)

"You know, I, you know, a fact I've come across already you know, she was a... she's a very bright child, you know, she wouldn't be the kind of mischievous child who, you know, and just try and get out of the flat and, you know, get up to mischief and that, you know, there's fun in all children but she certainly wasn't that kind of child. She was very bright."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html