Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[CHERIE.T]

jessica's grandmother testified that the screen door was cut: http://voices.yahoo.com/jessica-lunsford-trial-opens-florida-230099.html?cat=17

we don't know that an intruder took HC, so, not a good (valid) comparison.

(modsnip)
I followed Jessica's case while living in Fla. According to court documents John Couey carried Jessica OUT OF THE HOUSE THROUGH AN UN LOCKED DOOR .
The cut screen gma mentioned -----wasn't connected to the kidnapping.

I DID NOT say an intruder took HALEIGH. NO one knows who took her except the person that took her. There apparently was no reported outsider evidence. IMO That is valid.
Same with Maddy....supposedly no foreign evidence. IMO

 

[Donjeta]

I was under the impression that the door slammed shut due to a gust of wind from the opened window (causing Kate to realise that the window was open.)

Yeah, that seems logical but it was reported that there is speculation that the abductor was still there at the time.

Madeleine McCann Crimewatch appeal: Was kidnapper still in Maddie's room when mum Kate McCann checked on her?
15 Oct 2013 06:01
The mother revealed she heard a door "slam shut" shortly before she found her daughter was missing, and saw curtains moving at an open windo


Kate McCann may have been just seconds away from coming face to face with the man who kidnapped her daughter Madeleine, detectives revealed yesterday.

The anguished mum found the three-year-old had disappeared from the family’s holiday apartment in Portugal at 10pm – around the time a new suspect was seen carrying a blonde child towards the beach.

In an interview shown on BBC’s Crimewatch last night, along with a detailed reconstruction, Kate told how she heard a door slam when she went to check on her children.

She also felt curtains in the room “whoosh” and noticed an open window, raising the possibility she could have missed the abductor by moments

.



Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...ewatch-appeal-kidnapper-2371929#ixzz2iA2ezTlT
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

 

[CHERIE.T]

The police investigating the Haleigh Cummings disappearance have said that the babysitter/dad's gf Misty is the key. She, her brother and Haleigh's dad are in prison for unrelated drug charges now but they've told several different tales about how a cousin threw her in the river, etc. MOO and as always I could be wrong but I think the reason there is no evidence of a stranger intruder in Haleigh's case is because someone who was at home knows what happened to her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041660/Pictured-The-bedroom-Madeleine-McCann-met-fate.html

Photos of the McCann flat here.

I'm familiar with the Cummings disappearance. I meant to imply that there was no stranger evidence found in the home. Just as there was none in Jessica's home.

Thanks for the link to the flat. I found it here Thursday but didn't today, lol

 

[CHERIE.T]

Why would there be any evidence if a stranger took less than five minutes to enter an apartment that many people have probably already been in? There wouldn't even have been fingerprints if they had used a handkerchief or something for opening doors. If they were there any longer I still don't see what some people think should have been found to prove to them that someone had abducted the child.

Exactly. The perp could ...Could.. have worn a hat , gloves, whatever kidnappers wear. Not all kidnappers leave evidence. :moo:

 

[Donjeta]

I'm familiar with the Cummings disappearance. I meant to imply that there was no stranger evidence found in the home. Just as there was none in Jessica's home.

Thanks for the link to the flat. I found it here Thursday but didn't today, lol

If you're familiar with the facts then I'm not sure what the point you wanted to make about Haleigh Cummings was. There was no stranger evidence - perhaps because there was no stranger. In Jessica's case there was a stranger. So it can go either way and what does that teach us about what happened to Madeleine? Nothing much (IMO).

 

[CHERIE.T]

If you're familiar with the facts then I'm not sure what the point you wanted to make about Haleigh Cummings was. There was no stranger evidence - perhaps because there was no stranger. In Jessica's case there was a stranger. So it can go either way and what does that teach us about what happened to Madeleine? Nothing much (IMO).

My point was simple really.
NO ONE knows who took Haleigh. There was no stranger evidence.

Children can and have been kidnapped by a stranger leaving NO evidence. IMO

 

[haden]

Now what really bothers me is that Gerry found the doors open, and Kate found doors AND WINDOWS open.
In between them there was Matthew Oldfield's check on children.
There is no much in media on MO's check which IMO should be one of the most important statements as he was there before Kate discovered Madeleine missing

Is this a suggestion that someone was in the apartment, from say 9:05 when Gerry was there till near 10 when Kate arrived?

If you look at the files there are statements of the staff or passers by about different activities around the Ocean Club at the time.

I am going to revisit these statements.

 

[Donjeta]

My point was simple really.
NO ONE knows who took Haleigh. There was no stranger evidence.

Children can and have been kidnapped by a stranger leaving
NO EVIDENCE.

Yeah... Plenty of cases with little or no evidence of what happened. But then "no evidence" is used as absolute proof that family couldn't have done anything... Go figure.

JMO but the point that strangers can take a child leaving no evidence is probably more effectively made using a case unlike Haleigh's in which the child has been shown to have been taken by a stranger and the family is not up to their necks in it, judging from the number of lies they've told.

 

[Donjeta]

JMO but even if the victim was carried through a door a cut screen might absolutely be connected to a kidnapping and important evidence. A perp might use something like that to try to gain entrance or to peek in before entering.

Summa summarum. No one knows who took Haleigh so her case showing no evidence of a stranger does not say anything one way or another about the likelihood of a stranger taking Madeleine and leaving no evidence. It's different circumstances anyway.
And Misty Croslin said there was a door bricked and a kitchen light on that shouldn't have been so maybe the stranger did leave evidence, if there was one.

 

[~n/t~]

Now what really bothers me is that Gerry found the doors open, and Kate found doors AND WINDOWS open.
In between them there was Matthew Oldfield's check on children.
There is no much in media on MO's check which IMO should be one of the most important statements as he was there before Kate discovered Madeleine missing

Is this a suggestion that someone was in the apartment, from say 9:05 when Gerry was there till near 10 when Kate arrived?

If you look at the files there are statements of the staff or passers by about different activities around the Ocean Club at the time.

I am going to revisit these statements.

I thought they left the doors open for their check ins. Am I wrong? or was that information changed?

 

[Donjeta]

I thought they left the doors open for their check ins. Am I wrong? or was that information changed?

Different doors.
Gerry and Kate were talking about the door to the children's bedroom being more ajar than it used to be.

 

[~n/t~]

Concerning Amarals guilt:


.
Since we are down to one thread, the entire case in on topic.
Amaral is a convicted criminal. His guilt was proven. He was sentenced to 18 month in jail, but it was suspended pending his good behavior. The sentence is still on his record. He was convicted. Is that hard to understand? Maybe I'm not saying it clearly enough.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk/feedarticle/8521559:
McCann detective guilty of perjury<O></O>

Press Association, Friday May 22 2009 <O></O>

The disgraced former Portuguese police chief who previously led the inquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance has been convicted of perjury in a separate case.<O></O>

Goncalo Amaral was given an 18-month suspended sentence by a court in Portugal.<O></O>

Clarence Mitchell, a spokesman for Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann, said the couple thought the conviction "speaks for itself" and they would be continuing their legal action for defamation against Amaral.<O></O>

Mr Mitchell said: "While Kate and Gerry McCann will not be commenting on the court's decision, they will be continuing their defamation action against Goncalo Amaral. Today's conviction speaks for itself."<O></O>

The McCanns are taking action over Amaral's "entirely unfounded and grossly defamatory claims" in the media about the case, which included the allegation that Madeleine was dead and that her parents were somehow involved in concealing her body.<O></O>

In the separate case, Amaral was one of five officers of the Policia Judiciara (PJ) in Portimao, Algarve, charged over an alleged attack on the mother of another missing girl.


May I please see a link that says he was NOT convicted?

He was convicted of covering up for his colleagues. He didn't beat up a confession of the woman who murdered her child who was convicted of first degree murder along with the girls uncle.

 

[~n/t~]

Different doors.
Gerry and Kate were talking about the door to the children's bedroom being more ajar than it used to be.

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought there was only one bedroom door and one window and all three slept in the same room. Why plural? Doors? Windows?

 

[redheadedgal]

JMO but even if the victim was carried through a door a cut screen might absolutely be connected to a kidnapping and important evidence. A perp might use something like that to try to gain entrance or to peek in before entering.

Summa summarum. No one knows who took Haleigh so her case showing no evidence of a stranger does not say anything one way or another about the likelihood of a stranger taking Madeleine and leaving no evidence. It's different circumstances anyway.
And Misty Croslin said there was a door bricked and a kitchen light on that shouldn't have been so maybe the stranger did leave evidence, if there was one.

thank you.

i forgot about the bricked door and lights, but like we've both stated, the case cannot be deemed due to a de facto intruder/stranger so, not all that applicable imo.

didn't her little brother say he heard something different that night too?

back to the screen door in the lunsford case, since it was brought up in court as evidence in front of a judge, that makes it relevant. i don't necessarily see how an unlocked door and a cut screen have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[goldengirl57]

He was convicted of covering up for his colleagues. He didn't beat up a confession of the woman who murdered her child who was convicted of first degree murder along with the girls uncle.

He was convicted but in April the judge found Cipriano GUILTY OF MAKING ALL THE BEATINGS UP, so again i say it ALL the police officers those who were charged and those who were not were ABSOLVED from all blame...

ABSOLVED.

absolve
&#601;b&#712;z&#594;lv/Submit
verb
past tense: absolved;&#8195;past participle: absolved
1.
declare (someone) free from guilt, obligation, or punishment.
"the pardon absolved them of any crimes"
synonyms: exonerate, discharge, acquit, exculpate, vindicate;

...........................................................

AGAIN LINK HERE.....

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html

Relevant paragraphs....

Gonçalo Amaral, the former coordinator of the Criminal Department of Investigation of the Judiciary Police of Portimão was absolved of the crime of omission to denunciate [failing to complaint] and condemned to one and a half year for the crime of false statement, with a suspended sentence for the same period time.

The inspector António Nunes Cardoso was condemned to two years and three months for the falsification of a document, with a suspended sentence of two years.

The former Judiciary Police inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, Leonel Morgado Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, who were accused of having tortured Leonor Cipriano during the questionings2 at the headquarters of the PJ of Faro, were all absolved.

...............................................................................

I have linked this now about 5 times.

Leonor Cipriano lied lied lied, got them into trouble they were convicted but because she lied lied lied, they have all be ABSOLVED........FOUND FREE FROM GUILT............:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[Donjeta]

One of the stories was that Jr heard a couch bouncing and another that Misty and Jr. hid under a blanket while Haleigh screamed in the next room but I don't know if it ever was reported what the little brother told the investigators. If it's just stories from Misty et al. who knows what the truth is. http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1004/27/ng.01.html

These are the first pictures of the gypsy camp where a little blonde girl was found by police who believe she was snatched.
The discovery of the youngster known only as Maria will bring 'fresh hope for Madeleine McCann's parents that their daughter will be found alive.
The blue-eyed four-year-old was picked up by police during a routine raid on illegal activities in Roma camps across Greece.
Kate and Gerry McCann's spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: 'Every time a child is recovered in circumstances like this it gives them hope that Madeleine will be found alive too.
'They have always maintained that until there is evidence to prove otherwise missing children can still be out there waiting to be found.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...onde-girl-abducted-gypsies.html#ixzz2iAQl3RHX
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Among many claims made over the years, convicted paedophile Raymond Hewlett allegedly said he saw the Madeleine twice before she vanished and claimed she was stolen to order by a gypsy gang, but denied he was involved.

 

[goldengirl57]

Going back to Madeliene.

I actually still think it is feasible she did wonder out of the apartment to look for her parents.

Everyone concentrates on someone going in but really she could have come out.

Any thoughts?

Was she annoyed when she found her mum and dad were not there and went off to punish them by hiding somewhere.

ALSO the door being open slightly.

Why did Kate McCann notice the door was open more then when she left it....?

Can anyone answer me that?

The left at 8.30, and more then one person upto 10pm was supposed to have gone in and checked them. Why would she not simply assume one of the Tapas 7/9 had opened the door slightly more to check the inside and children....

HER STATEMENT makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Donjeta]

He was convicted but in April the judge found Cipriano GUILTY OF MAKING ALL THE BEATINGS UP, so again i say it ALL the police officers those who were charged and those who were not were ABSOLVED from all blame...

ABSOLVED.

absolve
&#601;b&#712;z&#594;lv/Submit
verb
past tense: absolved;&#8195;past participle: absolved
1.
declare (someone) free from guilt, obligation, or punishment.
"the pardon absolved them of any crimes"
synonyms: exonerate, discharge, acquit, exculpate, vindicate;

...........................................................

AGAIN LINK HERE.....

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html

Relevant paragraphs....

Gonçalo Amaral, the former coordinator of the Criminal Department of Investigation of the Judiciary Police of Portimão was absolved of the crime of omission to denunciate [failing to complaint] and condemned to one and a half year for the crime of false statement, with a suspended sentence for the same period time.

The inspector António Nunes Cardoso was condemned to two years and three months for the falsification of a document, with a suspended sentence of two years.

The former Judiciary Police inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, Leonel Morgado Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, who were accused of having tortured Leonor Cipriano during the questionings2 at the headquarters of the PJ of Faro, were all absolved.

...............................................................................

I have linked this now about 5 times.

Leonor Cipriano lied lied lied, got them into trouble they were convicted but because she lied lied lied, they have all be ABSOLVED........FOUND FREE FROM GUILT............:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I will just point out the bit that I bolded in red.

There was no beating but apparently there still was a false statement.

 

[Donjeta]

Going back to Madeliene.

I actually still think it is feasible she did wonder out of the apartment to look for her parents.

Everyone concentrates on someone going in but really she could have come out.

Any thoughts?

Was she annoyed when she found her mum and dad were not there and went off to punish them by hiding somewhere.

ALSO the door being open slightly.

Why did Kate McCann notice the door was open more then when she left it....?

Can anyone answer me that?

The left at 8.30, and more then one person upto 10pm was supposed to have gone in and checked them. Why would she not simply assume one of the Tapas 7/9 had opened the door slightly more to check the inside and children....

HER STATEMENT makes no sense to me at all.

Well, perhaps she did assume so.
At least that's what she said in the Crimewatch interview. Something about noticing the door and she thought it must have been Matthew, but then she noticed the window and Madeleine being gone.

 

[haden]

Going back to Madeliene.

I actually still think it is feasible she did wonder out of the apartment to look for her parents.

Everyone concentrates on someone going in but really she could have come out.

Any thoughts?

Was she annoyed when she found her mum and dad were not there and went off to punish them by hiding somewhere.

ALSO the door being open slightly.

Why did Kate McCann notice the door was open more then when she left it....?

Can anyone answer me that?

The left at 8.30, and more then one person upto 10pm was supposed to have gone in and checked them. Why would she not simply assume one of the Tapas 7/9 had opened the door slightly more to check the inside and children....

HER STATEMENT makes no sense to me at all.

Both parents stated at numerous occasions that:
Before leaving for dinner they closed the door of the childrens bedroom
Gerry stated that he found the same doors open.
Now what is confusing me is:
The newest report from the Crime watch reconstruction is showing Matt Oldfield checking on children at around 8.45 prior to Gerry. Was the door open at that time? Never reported!
Again after Gerry, Matt Oldfield checked at 9.30. Was the door open at that time? Was thw window open? Again, confusing statement from Matt.
I assume this is known to the police but it was never clearly explained in the news.

Re Madeleine, how would she exit. Was she strong enough to open patio doors?