Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 21

[Salem]

I don't mind Salem.

I personally agree with you about not leaving children alone Salem, but as I have said before, and if you saw the holiday link I posted you will know, the baby listening system is widely used in Europe as it's not illegal there. Many people have and do still use the service and find it acceptable.

IMO it's unfair to jump from baby listening, which they have never tried to hide, to accusations that they are capable of killing their own child. :waitasec: Or that any of the Tapas nine would for a second cover up the death of Madeleine. :waitasec: I just don't believe it!!

April - I understand about the baby-listening not being illegal. My comments were in reference to Oldfield's implying that she has more common sense. Just because things are commonly done or they are legal, does not mean they make good sense. This was a group of doctors for the most part. There is no way anyone will convince me that doctors, through their schooling and practice are not more familiar with the hazards of leaving small children alone, than many of the rest of us. Therefore, IMO, none of these 9 people used good common sense. You would think in a group of 9 people, at least one would say "wait, I don't think we should leave the children alone." They could have taken turns watching the children, they could have used the drop in center and they could have hired someone to sit with the kids. That would be "common sense."

I do not think the McCanns are guilty because they left Maddie alone. I think they are guilty because they continue to lie. They can't figure out where cuddle cat was, they can't figure out what was happening with the shutters, they can't seem to answer questions and they don't seem to work very hard at finding Maddie.

And I understand that you think all the leaks are coming from the PLE, but I am not convinced of that, especially after this last go round. I think the McCanns and their spokesperson have a hand in some of these very timely leaks. Just my opinion.

Like you, I have a very difficult time believing that all 9 of the Tapas group are involved. I just hate the thought that 9 doctors/ parents/ grandmothers, etc. would all actively work to cover up something like this. My opinion is that all 9 are not involved, but I guess time will tell us that.

I am very concerned about Oldfield's statement that there was no crying the night of May 2nd because of the McCann's admission and Mrs. Fenn's report. It was Mrs. Fenn's report to the management, that led MW Staff to advise the McCanns not to leave the children alone again. And as I have said before, I do believe Mrs. Fenn and I believe the quoted MW staff.

I was kind of thinking that it was the McCanns, Tanner and O'Brien that had knowledge of what happened. But Oldfield's latest "common sense" blurbs make me wonder about her also.

In my opinion, no matter what happened to Maddie, the McCanns are covering up something. They are not being completely honest and that lack of honesty is very harmful to Maddie. Enough has come out about this case, regardless of who is smearing who, to be able to make some inferences and in my mind, a logical inference is that someone knows something and they are lying about it and Maddie is paying the price for it.:furious:

Salem

PS - I love all these little character smiley faces.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I don't mind Salem.

I personally agree with you about not leaving children alone Salem, but as I have said before, and if you saw the holiday link I posted you will know, the baby listening system is widely used in Europe as it's not illegal there. Many people have and do still use the service and find it acceptable.

IMO it's unfair to jump from baby listening, which they have never tried to hide, to accusations that they are capable of killing their own child. :waitasec: Or that any of the Tapas nine would for a second cover up the death of Madeleine. :waitasec: I just don't believe it!!

If the Tapas 9 HAD used an "alcohol free" baby listening service, it would have been legal. They did not use an "alcohol free" baby listening service. According to them, they didn't use a baby listening service at all. They took turns checking on the children themselves, while managing to consume an undisclosed (disputed by the waiter) amount of alcohol. By the McCanns own admission they had drinks before they even met up with the group. We've all seen hundreds of pictures of Kate. She is a very thin and petite woman. How many glasses of wine do you suppose she could drink without becoming technically drunk? Same true with the rest of the group. Unless they are all heavy drinkers and have built up a tolerance, they had to have been intoxicated to varying degrees. It is scientifically proven that any alcohol in ones system significantly effects judgement. That is why it is illegal to drink and drive. A single bottle of wine in 2 hours would put Kate clearly over the legal limit.

I doubt a legal baby listening service is legal if the Nanny's are drinking alcohol between checks. You think? :bang:

 

[Barnaby]

THE TAPAS TRUTH

'The night Maddy went was just agonising. There's no way Gerry and Kate were involved'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/04/25/the-tapas-truth-89520-20394115/

"Anyone with an ounce of common sense would be able to see they couldn't have done it. And I was there and I know they didn't do it."

"We'd have loved to have spoken out and just put the record straight." Rachael also said it was "astounding" Kate and Gerry, who remain formal suspects, had heard so little from the Portuguese police that they could not be sure officers were still hunting for four-year-old Madeleine.

*******
Are the PJ still searching for Madeleine? I doubt it!!
Even their own President of Lawyers, Antonio Marinho e Pinto believes the PJ have gone down a blind ally and have used Portuguese secrecy laws to conceal it. :waitasec:

& this is the same Rachel Oldfield who said that madeleine was not crying despite the fact that her parents have admitted that she was!
Enough already!

 

[Barnaby]

Everyday I become more aggravated with these people.

They swore up and down that they would fully cooperate with the PJ in their investigation. "No stone unturned", lie detector test (yea, riiiiight), anything the authorities needed in order to help find their baby girl.

Then, once the dogs detected death and the focus turned toward them, they jump on a plane, hire lawyers who specialize in extradition cases, start bad-mouthing the people who might actually be able to find their daughter and hunker down in their house. I think it is the McCanns who are using the Portuguese Secrecy laws to conceal information. Whenever they are asked the tough questions they say they are muzzled by those laws.

Now they are b*tching about how little contact they have with the PJ.

**Newsflash** McCanns!! You are SUSPECTS. In this country you would be sitting in a cell. Go back to Portugal and participate in the search for your child!! Do the reconstruction of that horrible night because it might actually HELP find Maddie!!

As far as being convinced of their innocence....

Susan Smith's ex-husband was convinced of her innocence.

Scott Peterson's parents were convinced of his innocence.

Some people were convinced of Diane Downs innocence.

BAH!

Well said Colomom! :clap: :clap: :clap:

April - I snipped your post - hope you don't mind. I have to say this, I can't stand it :crazy:



Anyone with an ounce of common sense would NOT leave babies under the age of 4 alone in a resort room, in a foreign country regardless whether the doors were locked or not. Just wouldn't happen. Therefore, I think I have much more "common sense" than the famous Tapas 9. Everyone of those folks thought it was okay to leave babies, toddlers and vomiting children on their own. My Grandmother would have smacked them upside the head and told them to use "their smarts."

Salem

Well said Salem! :clap:

My theory is that the McCanns want actors. They don't want to re-enact what happed themselves, because they know they could slip up. That's why all the big leaks, etc. So they would have an excuse not to go back to Portugal.

Salem

Agree Salem!

 

[Barnaby]

A lot of drama on the 3'As tonight. A few members were in PDL this week & one actually spoke with Robert Murat & he actually posted on a thread. His ID has been verified by the admin, some members thought it was a complete wind up hence the drama! Glad it was sorted out & the members (particularly Blondie2) that did a lot of work in PDL vindicated!

http://www.the3arguidos.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10750&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=240

Hello all!

Thank you for all the support you have given to me, my family and my friends.

Unfortunately I will not be able to get into a conversation (which, I hope,you can understand my reasons). But after meeting blondie2 (great lady) I felt I needed to thank you all for all the support, it has been incredibly heart warming.

I will keep on checking in and I wish you all the best.

Robert

 

[Barnaby]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/dailymail.html?in_article_id=562171&in_page_id=1790&in_author_id=463


Kate and Gerry McCann mark the first anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance with an ITV documentary. Kate breaks down in tears, saying she would have used a baby listening service at the holiday complex had one been available.
Instead they set up their own ill-fated system with members of their group checking the children while they dined nearby.
I continue to pray for Maddie's safe return, but surely all this plea for understanding does is to remind us that they had another option - to book a babysitter.

 

[Salem]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/dailymail.html?in_article_id=562171&in_page_id=1790&in_author_id=463


Kate and Gerry McCann mark the first anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance with an ITV documentary. Kate breaks down in tears, saying she would have used a baby listening service at the holiday complex had one been available.
Instead they set up their own ill-fated system with members of their group checking the children while they dined nearby.
I continue to pray for Maddie's safe return, but surely all this plea for understanding does is to remind us that they had another option - to book a babysitter.

I agree Barnaby and not just that there were other options but that Kate KNEW she should be looking at the options. Okay - no baby listening, then what? Then leave the kids alone?

This type of stuff does nothing to make them look less culpable, in my opinion.

Salem

 

[april4sky]

& this is the same Rachel Oldfield who said that madeleine was not crying despite the fact that her parents have admitted that she was!
Enough already!

Rachael Oldfield, had been in the adjoining flat - on the other side of Madeleine's wall - all evening and heard no crying.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1312575,00.html

Rachel didn't say there was no crying, just that she didn't hear any.:waitasec: a big difference!!! :waitasec: :waitasec:

 

[april4sky]

April - I understand about the baby-listening not being illegal. My comments were in reference to Oldfield's implying that she has more common sense. Just because things are commonly done or they are legal, does not mean they make good sense. This was a group of doctors for the most part. There is no way anyone will convince me that doctors, through their schooling and practice are not more familiar with the hazards of leaving small children alone, than many of the rest of us. Therefore, IMO, none of these 9 people used good common sense. You would think in a group of 9 people, at least one would say "wait, I don't think we should leave the children alone." They could have taken turns watching the children, they could have used the drop in center and they could have hired someone to sit with the kids. That would be "common sense."

Salem, you won't get an argument from me on this point. I agree with you. :blowkiss:
As for common sense...some have it, some don't...and that goes for all types of people. It doesn't always go hand in hand with highly educated people either. IMO. Even doctors can make poor decisions.

I do not think the McCanns are guilty because they left Maddie alone. I think they are guilty because they continue to lie. They can't figure out where cuddle cat was, they can't figure out what was happening with the shutters, they can't seem to answer questions and they don't seem to work very hard at finding Maddie.

I don't think they have lied. We have heard different reports about shutters and cuddle cat...we know many reports have been rumours from "sources" I want to hear from them!!

And I understand that you think all the leaks are coming from the PLE, but I am not convinced of that, especially after this last go round. I think the McCanns and their spokesperson have a hand in some of these very timely leaks. Just my opinion.

We will have to disagree on this one.

Like you, I have a very difficult time believing that all 9 of the Tapas group are involved. I just hate the thought that 9 doctors/ parents/ grandmothers, etc. would all actively work to cover up something like this. My opinion is that all 9 are not involved, but I guess time will tell us that.

I believe they have all told the truth from day one.
Time will tell, and I hope that will be sooner rather than later.

I am very concerned about Oldfield's statement that there was no crying the night of May 2nd because of the McCann's admission and Mrs. Fenn's report. It was Mrs. Fenn's report to the management, that led MW Staff to advise the McCanns not to leave the children alone again. And as I have said before, I do believe Mrs. Fenn and I believe the quoted MW staff.

Salem Rachel Oldfield said she didn't hear crying, not that there was no crying. A big difference,:waitasec: not a lie. It's possible she had a TV or radio on.
As for Mrs Fenn. I saw and heard her myself say on video that she hadn't spoken to the press and that reports that she had were rubbish.

I was kind of thinking that it was the McCanns, Tanner and O'Brien that had knowledge of what happened. But Oldfield's latest "common sense" blurbs make me wonder about her also.

In my opinion, no matter what happened to Maddie, the McCanns are covering up something. They are not being completely honest and that lack of honesty is very harmful to Maddie. Enough has come out about this case, regardless of who is smearing who, to be able to make some inferences and in my mind, a logical inference is that someone knows something and they are lying about it and Maddie is paying the price for it.:furious:

Again Salem, we will have to agree to disagree.
I believe they have all told the truth from day one.
There have been too many accusations and crazy headlines. The recent court case, and big payout, from three tabloids confirms it. Over a hundred of their articles were malicious. And there were many more than these three..The Portuguese press have played, and continue to play a Big part IMO. No one could come through such malicious smears smelling of roses.

Salem

PS - I love all these little character smiley faces.

Me too Salem :blowkiss:
Your posts are always a pleasure...even when I disagree with them.

 

[april4sky]

'Never give up hope of finding Madeleine'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/26/nmaddy126.xml

Ed Smart, whose 14-year-old daughter Elizabeth was abducted.......told The Daily Telegraph that Mr and Mrs McCann were doing everything right to try to find their eldest daughter. "I think they are doing amazingly well under the circumstances, they are very positive," he said.
"There is no question in my mind that they didn't have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
"I tell them, keep Madeleine's face out there - it is so incredibly important because that awareness is going to help bring her home. That was the first and most important thing that they could do."

Mr Smart has been angered by the criticism that the McCanns have employed the wrong strategy to find their daughter. "I do not believe they are putting Madeleine at risk, I completely disagree with that," he said. "Whoever says that is absolutely foolish - it is the only way she is going to be found.

Mr Smart, who is heavily involved in child protection, said of the McCanns: "We have had a number of conversations and I just admire them very much. I really hope that in the near future they will be able to find Madeleine."

"I think it is ridiculous that some of the stupid comments say she is not emotional enough. I have met her and talked to her on the phone.
"Kate is a wonderful mother and cares about her children and would do anything to bring Madeleine home."
******
This from a man who knows them...and has been where, thank God...None of us have!!!

 

[Barnaby]

'Never give up hope of finding Madeleine'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/26/nmaddy126.xml

Ed Smart, whose 14-year-old daughter Elizabeth was abducted.......told The Daily Telegraph that Mr and Mrs McCann were doing everything right to try to find their eldest daughter. "I think they are doing amazingly well under the circumstances, they are very positive," he said.
"There is no question in my mind that they didn't have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
"I tell them, keep Madeleine's face out there - it is so incredibly important because that awareness is going to help bring her home. That was the first and most important thing that they could do."

Mr Smart has been angered by the criticism that the McCanns have employed the wrong strategy to find their daughter. "I do not believe they are putting Madeleine at risk, I completely disagree with that," he said. "Whoever says that is absolutely foolish - it is the only way she is going to be found.

Mr Smart, who is heavily involved in child protection, said of the McCanns: "We have had a number of conversations and I just admire them very much. I really hope that in the near future they will be able to find Madeleine."

"I think it is ridiculous that some of the stupid comments say she is not emotional enough. I have met her and talked to her on the phone.
"Kate is a wonderful mother and cares about her children and would do anything to bring Madeleine home."
******
This from a man who knows them...and has been where, thank God...None of us have!!!

Highly trained dogs did not detect a cadaver scent in Mr. Smarts home!

 

[Barnaby]

Rachael Oldfield, had been in the adjoining flat - on the other side of Madeleine's wall - all evening and heard no crying.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1312575,00.html

Rachel didn't say there was no crying, just that she didn't hear any.:waitasec: a big difference!!! :waitasec: :waitasec:

So why is it relevant other than to confuse the issue & weaken Mrs Fenn's account or maybe it is lies to excuse herself from not going to see to the little girl!

 

[april4sky]

So why is it relevant other than to confuse the issue & weaken Mrs Fenn's account or maybe it is lies to excuse herself from not going to see to the little girl!

Barnaby the truth is always relavent. IMO

 

[Salem]

I also watched Mrs. Fenn and I disagree with the interpretation of her comments. Mrs. Fenn said she heard crying and complained to management. I have never seen where she retracted that statement. The statements she did retract were those saying she heard "fighting" "screaming" and Kate being out of control. Mrs. Fenn said she never heard or said those things and she would not discuss her statement any further with the press. However the claims to the crying and contacting management were never withdrawn. Big difference. Also, one of the reasons I believe her. She did not appreciate the press's distortion of her comments and she held the line with her truth. The press had to leave her alone..... that was a good thing, imo.

Salem

 

[Salem]

So why is it relevant other than to confuse the issue & weaken Mrs Fenn's account or maybe it is lies to excuse herself from not going to see to the little girl!

I agree Barnaby. Why didn't she hear Maddie and her brother? I'm not sure which apt the Oldfields were in, but Mrs. Fenn was directly above 5A. April does have a point, maybe Oldfield was listening to the radio or the TV. Or maybe she was sleeping. Is she the one with the baby or is that Paynes?

I know that I am a heavy sleeper and I worry I won't hear my grandchildren in the same house with me during the night, so I don't get much sleep when they stay over.

Even still, it is a little odd that Oldfield would come out with this, after the McCanns admitted that Maddie had cried for them.

As for Mr. Smart - I believe he talks from experience in his defense of the McCanns so it means very little to me (that sounds odd, doesn't it). Mr. Smart was investigated at the very beginning of Elizabeth's disappearance. I believe he took a poly (not sure, but I think so), and I believe he cooperated fully with LE and I believe the dogs were used in searches several times for Elizabeth.

The McCanns were not investigated at the beginning of the case and they complained when LE did begin to investigate them. Then they threw up as many roadblocks as they could to take the heat off of themselves. They hired attorneys within days of Maddie's disappearance and public spokespersons.

I still have never seen anyone else in such a traumatic situation use a spokesperson. While that does not mean they are guilty, it sure does raise the hinky meter.



Salem

 

[Tony Bennett]

The McCanns will think they've achieved quite a lot after the recent 'revelation' that Madeleine talked to them about her crying the night before, and following Rachel Oldfield's comments.

Here's what they *think* they have achieved:

1. Proof that Madeleine was alive on the morning of 3 May

2. Defused the impact of any subsequent evidence that Mrs Fenn or other witnesses heard Madeleine sobbing her heart out on the evening of 2 May (or possibly 1 May)

3. Minimised the nature, extent and volume of Madeleine's crying ('well, Rachel Oldfield never heard her, and, anyway, Madeleine just laughed it off the following morning')

4. Portrayed themselves once again as responsible, caring parents ('we discussed why Madeleine may have been crying and made sure we increased our monitoring checks' (cough))

5. Rachel Oldfield's been on the TV and told everyone our stories are true and consistent - *and* she reminded everyone that we were *doctors*.

For the McCann-believers, who have such strong faith in these cult-like figures, that was all good stuff and may even have increased their faith in their hero and heroine.

But for the McCann-sceptics, i.e. those with brain enough left to question the media-hyped orthodoxy of an abduction, these self-serving statements only reinforce our view that a massive web of deception is covering the truth.

The account of Madeleine's breakfast on the morning of 3rd May was wholly unconvincing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Barnaby]

Barnaby the truth is always relavent. IMO

I absolutely agree, the truth is always relevant, when we have the truth that is!

I also watched Mrs. Fenn and I disagree with the interpretation of her comments. Mrs. Fenn said she heard crying and complained to management. I have never seen where she retracted that statement. The statements she did retract were those saying she heard "fighting" "screaming" and Kate being out of control. Mrs. Fenn said she never heard or said those things and she would not discuss her statement any further with the press. However the claims to the crying and contacting management were never withdrawn. Big difference. Also, one of the reasons I believe her. She did not appreciate the press's distortion of her comments and she held the line with her truth. The press had to leave her alone..... that was a good thing, imo.


Salem

Absolutely agree Salem!

The McCanns will think they've achieved quite a lot after the recent 'revelation' that Madeleine talked to them about her crying the night before, and following Rachel Oldfield's comments.

Here's what they *think* they have achieved:

1. Proof that Madeleine was alive on the morning of 3 May

2. Defused the impact of any subsequent evidence that Mrs Fenn or other witnesses heard Madeleine sobbing her heart out on the evening of 2 May (or possibly 1 May)

3. Minimised the nature, extent and volume of Madeleine's crying ('well, Rachel Oldfield never heard her, and, anyway, Madeleine just laughed it off the following morning')

4. Portrayed themselves once again as responsible, caring parents ('we discussed why Madeleine may have been crying and made sure we increased our monitoring checks' (cough))

5. Rachel Oldfield's been on the TV and told everyone our stories are true and consistent - *and* she reminded everyone that we were *doctors*.

For the McCann-believers, who have such strong faith in these cult-like figures, that was all good stuff and may even have increased their faith in their hero and heroine.

But for the McCann-sceptics, i.e. those with brain enough left to question the media-hyped orthodoxy of an abduction, these self-serving statements only reinforce our view that a massive web of deception is covering the truth.

The account of Madeleine's breakfast on the morning of 3rd May was wholly unconvincing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent post Tony!

 

[Texana]

'Never give up hope of finding Madeleine'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/26/nmaddy126.xml

Ed Smart, whose 14-year-old daughter Elizabeth was abducted.......told The Daily Telegraph that Mr and Mrs McCann were doing everything right to try to find their eldest daughter. "I think they are doing amazingly well under the circumstances, they are very positive," he said.
"There is no question in my mind that they didn't have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
"I tell them, keep Madeleine's face out there - it is so incredibly important because that awareness is going to help bring her home. That was the first and most important thing that they could do."

Mr Smart has been angered by the criticism that the McCanns have employed the wrong strategy to find their daughter. "I do not believe they are putting Madeleine at risk, I completely disagree with that," he said. "Whoever says that is absolutely foolish - it is the only way she is going to be found.

Mr Smart, who is heavily involved in child protection, said of the McCanns: "We have had a number of conversations and I just admire them very much. I really hope that in the near future they will be able to find Madeleine."

"I think it is ridiculous that some of the stupid comments say she is not emotional enough. I have met her and talked to her on the phone.
"Kate is a wonderful mother and cares about her children and would do anything to bring Madeleine home."
******
This from a man who knows them...and has been where, thank God...None of us have!!!

Once again, in regards to Ed Smart, he's the nicest man in the world, but he's no judge of character...

 

[ThoughtFox]

Rachael Oldfield, had been in the adjoining flat - on the other side of Madeleine's wall - all evening and heard no crying.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1312575,00.html

Rachel didn't say there was no crying, just that she didn't hear any.:waitasec: a big difference!!! :waitasec: :waitasec:

Doesn't that contradict Kate's story about what Madeleine said?

We have Mrs. Fenn as well as Kate saying that Madeleine and her brother were crying.

Now tell me . . . how is it good that a child was crying without anyone to hear them? And if the McCanns or friends were "checking" on them every thirty minutes, why didn't someone realize they were awake and crying?

Because they were ignoring them - that's what this whole story tells me. They closed the door and went to dinner, and it didn't matter if they cried or slept, no one knew the difference. That is called child neglect.

Also, if Rachel Oldfield was at home that night, why didn't she babysit the McCann children? That's a big red flag to me - something is wrong with that. Maybe the McCanns couldn't get a sitter or listener from the resort, but they had friends who could have babysat some sleeping children.

That is so obvious that it nearly makes my teeth ache. Come one, Rachel Oldfield is just spinning for her friends. Why wasn't she the designated checker, since she didn't go out to dinner? :furious:

 

[april4sky]

Doesn't that contradict Kate's story about what Madeleine said?

We have Mrs. Fenn as well as Kate saying that Madeleine and her brother were crying.

Now tell me . . . how is it good that a child was crying without anyone to hear them? And if the McCanns or friends were "checking" on them every thirty minutes, why didn't someone realize they were awake and crying?

Because they were ignoring them - that's what this whole story tells me. They closed the door and went to dinner, and it didn't matter if they cried or slept, no one knew the difference. That is called child neglect.

Also, if Rachel Oldfield was at home that night, why didn't she babysit the McCann children? That's a big red flag to me - something is wrong with that. Maybe the McCanns couldn't get a sitter or listener from the resort, but they had friends who could have babysat some sleeping children.

That is so obvious that it nearly makes my teeth ache. Come one, Rachel Oldfield is just spinning for her friends. Why wasn't she the designated checker, since she didn't go out to dinner? :furious:

She said she didn't hear crying...Thats all. Not that there wasn't any!! Not difficult to understand!!! She could have had a TV or radio on..again, not difficult to understand. IMO.
Thats been the problem all along. words, and therefore meanings, get twisted. IMO