Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 21

[april4sky]

Once again, in regards to Ed Smart, he's the nicest man in the world, but he's no judge of character...

In your opinion.
I wouldn't so easily dismiss a man who's been through such a trauma as he and his family have.
Ed Smart knows them, therefore he's in a much better position to judge their character than either you or I. :waitasec:

 

[Barnaby]

Doesn't that contradict Kate's story about what Madeleine said?

We have Mrs. Fenn as well as Kate saying that Madeleine and her brother were crying.

Now tell me . . . how is it good that a child was crying without anyone to hear them? And if the McCanns or friends were "checking" on them every thirty minutes, why didn't someone realize they were awake and crying?

Because they were ignoring them - that's what this whole story tells me. They closed the door and went to dinner, and it didn't matter if they cried or slept, no one knew the difference. That is called child neglect.

Also, if Rachel Oldfield was at home that night, why didn't she babysit the McCann children? That's a big red flag to me - something is wrong with that. Maybe the McCanns couldn't get a sitter or listener from the resort, but they had friends who could have babysat some sleeping children.

That is so obvious that it nearly makes my teeth ache. Come one, Rachel Oldfield is just spinning for her friends. Why wasn't she the designated checker, since she didn't go out to dinner? :furious:

I so agree Thoughtfox, something about all of this just doesn't sit well with me. Why was Rachel Oldfield home that night & not out with the gang? Where did she have dnner? Why if the McCanns knew she would just be next door did they not ask her to check on the children?

In your opinion.
I wouldn't so easily dismiss a man who's been through such a trauma as he and his family have.
Ed Smart knows them, therefore he's in a much better position to judge their character than either you or I. :waitasec:

He KNOWS them? Are you serious?

 

[teacherbees]

Ed Smart appears to be a genuinely nice guy who had the unthinkable happen to his young daughter. He knows firsthand that someone can come in and snatch your child away, under your very nose. Being a normal, caring parent, I'm sure it's difficult for him to ever picture someone lying about something so devastating and tragic as the disappearance of a child. And, of course, even more unbelievable to imagine parents who would kill their own child and then go to such lengths to cover up the death.

Add to that - Ed may be a great guy but I don't think he can be held up as a great judge of character. Compassion and a desire to help others led him to hire the man who would later abduct his child and rape her.

I'm sure it must horrify him to think that he helped set up the sequence of events that led to Elizabeth's kidnapping. But, the fact remains, he did not have the keeness of judgement and personality assesment to realize the man he let into his home was an unstable nutcase, capable of bringing great harm to a child.

So, let's just say, I have nothing against Ed Smart but I'm sure not going to take his word on the McCanns guilt or innocence as the gospel truth.

 

[Barnaby]

The McCanns are using this man & he doesn't know it! They are associating themselves with a man whose daughter really was kidnapped to give authenticity to their own claims!
Ed Smart was definitely naive to allow that man to work at his home but he never left his kids alone at night to go boozing! Different circumstances!
He took a polygraph test as he truly had nothing to hide! The McCanns were all for taking one until a newspaper offered to provide one free of charge, then they very quickly backed down! I wonder why?
If was a suspect in my childs disappearance & was truly innocent, it would be the first thing that I would demand!

 

[april4sky]

Ed Smart appears to be a genuinely nice guy who had the unthinkable happen to his young daughter. He knows firsthand that someone can come in and snatch your child away, under your very nose. Being a normal, caring parent, I'm sure it's difficult for him to ever picture someone lying about something so devastating and tragic as the disappearance of a child. And, of course, even more unbelievable to imagine parents who would kill their own child and then go to such lengths to cover up the death.

Add to that - Ed may be a great guy but I don't think he can be held up as a great judge of character. Compassion and a desire to help others led him to hire the man who would later abduct his child and rape her.

I'm sure it must horrify him to think that he helped set up the sequence of events that led to Elizabeth's kidnapping. But, the fact remains, he did not have the keeness of judgement and personality assesment to realize the man he let into his home was an unstable nutcase, capable of bringing great harm to a child.

So, let's just say, I have nothing against Ed Smart but I'm sure not going to take his word on the McCanns guilt or innocence as the gospel truth.

So now Edd Smart must take some blame for what happened to his daughter. Geeeez!!
That assumption cruely condemns an awful lot of people who have "lost" someone to a perpetrator only to discover they had known or had met that person, however briefly. :waitasec:

We are all human, therefore flawed...no more or less than Edd Smart. IMO
You don't have to take his word for it...It's his opinion...But his knowing them together with his experience still puts him in a better position to judge them. IMO.....Which was my point.

 

[Texana]

So now Edd Smart must take some blame for what happened to his daughter. Geeeez!!
That assumption cruely condemns an awful lot of people who have "lost" someone to a perpetrator only to discover they had known or had met that person, however briefly. :waitasec:

We are all human, therefore flawed...no more or less than Edd Smart. IMO
You don't have to take his word for it...It's his opinion...But his knowing them together with his experience still puts him in a better position to judge them. IMO.....Which was my point.

There's a difference between knowing someone who turns out later to be a psycho creep, and inviting some homeless guy into your house to do chores--and leaving your house unlocked after that.

There was a family a few years ago who lived in our general area, they had one son, Everett McKay. They had a family friend, Hilton Crawford, a former LE officer, and business associate. The parents left for a business meeting and left the son at home (he was twelve.) Crawford came over, abducted the son, asked for ransom, and killed the boy.

THAT is something you don't see coming.

Asking strange guys who are homeless and begging, to come in and do work for you, and then continue to leave your alarm unset, and your house unlocked--not even in the same league.

I'm sorry, April but Ed Smart was and is a very decent and nice man, who unfortunately thinks all mankind is cut from the same cloth as himself. It says far more about Mr. Smart that he thinks the McCanns could never do this, then it does about the McCanns.

People who lose a child a suddenly for whatever reasons (or lose a child at all, honestly) have suffered far more than I could ever imagine. My whole heart goes out to them. But that doesn't mean that they suddenly become perfect judges of character. It's not a logical assumption.

 

[teacherbees]

april, I in no way meant to judge Ed Smart or "blame" him for what happened to his daughter. What I said is that HE probably, as a caring parent, thinks aobut every detail that led up to Elizabeth's kidnapping and rues the day he ever let that monster into his home.

I have only respect and compassion for Mr. and Mrs. Smart. They have handled themselves with great dignity throughout the ordeal with their daughter.

I do stand by my statement that I wouldn't take Ed Smart's character assesment as gospel truth. He made a tragic error once...and maybe he's wrong again. Being a nice guy who wants to help others shouldn't wind up costing a man his daughter's well-being...but in Ed's case it did.

As I pointed out and Barnaby further explained - Ed Smart is an innocent father who had nothing to do with his daughter's kidnapping and probably can't imagine the evil it would take to bring harm to or kill your own child and then cover it up, month after month.

 

[april4sky]

april, I in no way meant to judge Ed Smart or "blame" him for what happened to his daughter. What I said is that HE probably, as a caring parent, thinks aobut every detail that led up to Elizabeth's kidnapping and rues the day he ever let that monster into his home.

I don't blame him either though aparently some are still happy to. We all have different opinions it seems.

I have only respect and compassion for Mr. and Mrs. Smart. They have handled themselves with great dignity throughout the ordeal with their daughter.

Even so he came under suspicion and was subject to many cruel rumours...It happens, even when there is no evidence....That doesn't mean family members shouldn't be looked at, just not crucified without any evidence. I know we disagree re-evidence...but it's my opinion there isn't any!! The PJ would be jumping up and down if there were any. The last I heard the PJ said they didn't know if Madeleine was dead or alive....To me thats Huge!!!

I do stand by my statement that I wouldn't take Ed Smart's character assesment as gospel truth. He made a tragic error once...and maybe he's wrong again. Being a nice guy who wants to help others shouldn't wind up costing a man his daughter's well-being...but in Ed's case it did.

As I pointed out and Barnaby further explained - Ed Smart is an innocent father who had nothing to do with his daughter's kidnapping and probably can't imagine the evil it would take to bring harm to or kill your own child and then cover it up, month after month.

I think it's given him an experience none of us can understand. He knows them, I wouldn't dismiss the opinion of a man who experienced and would recognise that kind of pain. JMHO.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Article in the Irish Independent:

The Mystery Remains: Why Was She Left Alone

Some interesting insights by the locals in Praia da Luz.

 

[Salem]

The McCanns are using this man & he doesn't know it! They are associating themselves with a man whose daughter really was kidnapped to give authenticity to their own claims!
Ed Smart was definitely naive to allow that man to work at his home but he never left his kids alone at night to go boozing! Different circumstances!
He took a polygraph test as he truly had nothing to hide! The McCanns were all for taking one until a newspaper offered to provide one free of charge, then they very quickly backed down! I wonder why?
If was a suspect in my childs disappearance & was truly innocent, it would be the first thing that I would demand!

Another comment on the polygraph - the McCanns received the offer to do the polygraph in England. While PLE does not use this type of tool (maybe they should) the fact that it was offered in England means the McCanns would have been protected, so to speak and the questions could have been asked by English LE. For them to refuse, in relatively safe surroundings, speaks volumes. They never had to turn the results over to PLE but they could have used it to garner help from the ELE and to further show the ELE that they were innocent. This could have gone a long way with the PLE, I think.

Salem

 

[teacherbees]

It's a bit of a stretch to assert that Ed Smart knows the McCanns. He has met them at official functions and knows the basic story of their daughter's disappearance.

 

[april4sky]

It's a bit of a stretch to assert that Ed Smart knows the McCanns. He has met them at official functions and knows the basic story of their daughter's disappearance.

Not to me teacherbees...according to the article they have been in close contact since last July.

But it's very obvious we are not going to agree....I have my opinion of Ed Smart...and the McCanns...and you have yours..No worries.

 

[colomom]

Morning Folks,

I would like to touch on a couple of points in this discussion.

First, I agree with TB that "it's a bit of a stretch to assert that Ed Smart knows the McCanns". I believe he may have seen them face-to-face once or twice, with press and officials standing by. I also think they have spoken on the phone a couple of times. IMO, he does not know them, he knows a bit about their story. I would bet that if I had an hour with him and an internet connection, I could blow his mind! I can guarantee you that I know more about this case than Ed Smart does.

I also think it is unfair to take a simple statement like "he's the nicest man in the world, but he's no judge of character", and blow it up into how he is responsible for what happened to his daughter.

Finally, regarding Rachel Oldfield and her recent statements, consider this. Perhaps the Oldfields decided to speak up because they have provided the PJ with some very important information during the UK interviews. They are trying to convince Team McCann that they are still in their camp and supporting them. It's possible. You really need to ask yourself, why would the Oldfields decide after all this time to say something? What was their motivation? Do you think that Team McCann asked them to make a statement? Why? By saying she did not hear any crying RO is insinuating that either Madeleine or KM lied. If she did not hear anything because she had a radio or TV on, making it impossible to hear anything, then why say anything at all?? Something stinks, IMHO.

It is a very good point that if RO was home that evening then why didn't she offer to babysit? Think about it, if you knew your friends were going out for the evening and leaving the children alone, wouldn't you offer?? Or if your were the McCanns and knew that one of your friends would be home, wouldn't you, at minimum, give them your cell phone number and ask them to listen in now and then??

So much of the explanations given in this case are really illogical. IMHO, of course.

 

[teacherbees]

I have been in close contact with teachers at the school where I work for three years. (I teach music at a small, private elementary school.) The other teachers are lovely women and I enjoy being in their company and talking to them. Sometimes we even discuss some fairly private, sensitive and personal issues. But none of them can know me in the same way that my inner circle closest friends do.

When the other teachers come to my home, I've prepared for their visit. Spiffed the house up, told the teenager to mind his p's and q's, let hubby know he better be on his best behavior - most of us know the drill.

My best friend? She can and does come in at any time. She's seen me, my family and my house at our worst...and our best. Inasmuch as outsiders can, she truly knows me.

I see the Smart/McCann relationship as being like the one I have with teachers at my school - at best. (At least I live in the same country as the other teachers at my school!)

I imagine you'll come back now wih something about how Gerry and Kate are pouring out their heart to Ed in a deeply meaningful and intimate manner. None of us really knows what goes on between these people...but whatever it is, I maintain it's carefully crafted by the McCanns to present a picture of their innocence. And Ed - caring father and decent human being that he is, believes that image.

I'm just not sure that I do - or that I can trust Ed's judgement.

 

[Texana]

I have been in close contact with teachers at the school where I work for three years. (I teach music at a small, private elementary school.) The other teachers are lovely women and I enjoy being in their company and talking to them. Sometimes we even discuss some fairly private, sensitive and personal issues. But none of them can know me in the same way that my inner circle closest friends do.

When the other teachers come to my home, I've prepared for their visit. Spiffed the house up, told the teenager to mind his p's and q's, let hubby know he better be on his best behavior - most of us know the drill.

My best friend? She can and does come in at any time. She's seen me, my family and my house at our worst...and our best. Inasmuch as outsiders can, she truly knows me.

I see the Smart/McCann relationship as being like the one I have with teachers at my school - at best. (At least I live in the same country as the other teachers at my school!)

I imagine you'll come back now wih something about how Gerry and Kate are pouring out their heart to Ed in a deeply meaningful and intimate manner. None of us really knows what goes on between these people...but whatever it is, I maintain it's carefully crafted by the McCanns to present a picture of their innocence. And Ed - caring father and decent human being that he is, believes that image.

I'm just not sure that I do - or that I can trust Ed's judgement.

Well said. I hadn't even thought of the amount of time Ed has spent with the McCanns. Excellent point.

 

[april4sky]

I have been in close contact with teachers at the school where I work for three years. (I teach music at a small, private elementary school.) The other teachers are lovely women and I enjoy being in their company and talking to them. Sometimes we even discuss some fairly private, sensitive and personal issues. But none of them can know me in the same way that my inner circle closest friends do.

When the other teachers come to my home, I've prepared for their visit. Spiffed the house up, told the teenager to mind his p's and q's, let hubby know he better be on his best behavior - most of us know the drill.

My best friend? She can and does come in at any time. She's seen me, my family and my house at our worst...and our best. Inasmuch as outsiders can, she truly knows me.

I see the Smart/McCann relationship as being like the one I have with teachers at my school - at best. (At least I live in the same country as the other teachers at my school!)

I imagine you'll come back now wih something about how Gerry and Kate are pouring out their heart to Ed in a deeply meaningful and intimate manner. None of us really knows what goes on between these people...but whatever it is, I maintain it's carefully crafted by the McCanns to present a picture of their innocence. And Ed - caring father and decent human being that he is, believes that image.

I'm just not sure that I do - or that I can trust Ed's judgement.

Absolutely right and completely understandable. IMO That is exactly what makes it different for them as they have suffered the same trauma none of us have.
Your feelings about other kinds of relationships I completely agree with.

 

[april4sky]

Morning Folks,

I would like to touch on a couple of points in this discussion.

First, I agree with TB that "it's a bit of a stretch to assert that Ed Smart knows the McCanns". I believe he may have seen them face-to-face once or twice, with press and officials standing by. I also think they have spoken on the phone a couple of times. IMO, he does not know them, he knows a bit about their story. I would bet that if I had an hour with him and an internet connection, I could blow his mind! I can guarantee you that I know more about this case than Ed Smart does.

Reported as close contact since last July. How much actual contact is just guesswork by everyone here. Ed Smart is very clear what he thinks. As for you knowing more colomom....you may know the PJ's version.

I also think it is unfair to take a simple statement like "he's the nicest man in the world, but he's no judge of character", and blow it up into how he is responsible for what happened to his daughter.

Did anyone say "responsible":waitasec: I don't think I did :waitasec: ...Using that word is a good example of "blowing something up" IMO.

Finally, regarding Rachel Oldfield and her recent statements, consider this. Perhaps the Oldfields decided to speak up because they have provided the PJ with some very important information during the UK interviews. They are trying to convince Team McCann that they are still in their camp and supporting them. It's possible. You really need to ask yourself, why would the Oldfields decide after all this time to say something? What was their motivation? Do you think that Team McCann asked them to make a statement? Why? By saying she did not hear any crying RO is insinuating that either Madeleine or KM lied. If she did not hear anything because she had a radio or TV on, making it impossible to hear anything, then why say anything at all?? Something stinks, IMHO.

:waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec: To be honest colomom, I won't even go there...I'm pretty sure you don't want to know what I think...so the less said the better. :silenced:

It is a very good point that if RO was home that evening then why didn't she offer to babysit? Think about it, if you knew your friends were going out for the evening and leaving the children alone, wouldn't you offer?? Or if your were the McCanns and knew that one of your friends would be home, wouldn't you, at minimum, give them your cell phone number and ask them to listen in now and then??

I'm sure they wish desperately they had made a different decision...they didn't... and sadly hindsight can't change it!!

 

[Barnaby]

Morning Folks,

I would like to touch on a couple of points in this discussion.

First, I agree with TB that "it's a bit of a stretch to assert that Ed Smart knows the McCanns". I believe he may have seen them face-to-face once or twice, with press and officials standing by. I also think they have spoken on the phone a couple of times. IMO, he does not know them, he knows a bit about their story. I would bet that if I had an hour with him and an internet connection, I could blow his mind! I can guarantee you that I know more about this case than Ed Smart does.

I also think it is unfair to take a simple statement like "he's the nicest man in the world, but he's no judge of character", and blow it up into how he is responsible for what happened to his daughter.

Finally, regarding Rachel Oldfield and her recent statements, consider this. Perhaps the Oldfields decided to speak up because they have provided the PJ with some very important information during the UK interviews. They are trying to convince Team McCann that they are still in their camp and supporting them. It's possible. You really need to ask yourself, why would the Oldfields decide after all this time to say something? What was their motivation? Do you think that Team McCann asked them to make a statement? Why? By saying she did not hear any crying RO is insinuating that either Madeleine or KM lied. If she did not hear anything because she had a radio or TV on, making it impossible to hear anything, then why say anything at all?? Something stinks, IMHO.

It is a very good point that if RO was home that evening then why didn't she offer to babysit? Think about it, if you knew your friends were going out for the evening and leaving the children alone, wouldn't you offer?? Or if your were the McCanns and knew that one of your friends would be home, wouldn't you, at minimum, give them your cell phone number and ask them to listen in now and then??

So much of the explanations given in this case are really illogical. IMHO, of course.

Well said Colomom, stinks of ancient fish to me!

Another comment on the polygraph - the McCanns received the offer to do the polygraph in England. While PLE does not use this type of tool (maybe they should) the fact that it was offered in England means the McCanns would have been protected, so to speak and the questions could have been asked by English LE. For them to refuse, in relatively safe surroundings, speaks volumes. They never had to turn the results over to PLE but they could have used it to garner help from the ELE and to further show the ELE that they were innocent. This could have gone a long way with the PLE, I think.

Salem

Absolutely Salem, their complete refusal to take the polygraph in the UK speaks volumes!

Article in the Irish Independent:

The Mystery Remains: Why Was She Left Alone

Some interesting insights by the locals in Praia da Luz.

Excellent article! Thanks for posting Thoughtfox!

I don't blame him either though aparently some are still happy to. .

Noone here is blaming Ed Smart for what happened to his daughter. The only feelings that I get from any comments here are that he is a trusting man who thinks well of people. That comment on his mistake of judgement is not to blame him! We have all had maintenance workers come to the house, not always known to us but rarely do we think that they will come back & abduct a family member! His mistake was to leave the alarm off! That was a mistake not a calculated, cold, cruel, callous & negligent action to leave 3 babies in an unlocked apartment while the parents went out for the evening!
The only way you could liken the McCanns situation to Ed Smarts in any remote way would be if they had hired a baby sitter that they trusted & later she had gained access to their apartment while they were all there & sleeping & taken their daughter! Then they would have made a mistake rather than actually taking a conscious decision that would leave their daughter vulnerable!

 

[colomom]

Did anyone say "responsible":waitasec: I don't think I did :waitasec: ...Using that word is a good example of "blowing something up" IMO.

From your post #321:

"I don't blame him either though aparently some are still happy to."

You specifically state that you believe that "some" blame Ed Smart! Not only that but you say they are happy to blame him.

Responsible=blame

 

[daffodil]

Ed Smart appears to be a genuinely nice guy who had the unthinkable happen to his young daughter. He knows firsthand that someone can come in and snatch your child away, under your very nose. Being a normal, caring parent, I'm sure it's difficult for him to ever picture someone lying about something so devastating and tragic as the disappearance of a child. And, of course, even more unbelievable to imagine parents who would kill their own child and then go to such lengths to cover up the death.

Add to that - Ed may be a great guy but I don't think he can be held up as a great judge of character. Compassion and a desire to help others led him to hire the man who would later abduct his child and rape her.

I'm sure it must horrify him to think that he helped set up the sequence of events that led to Elizabeth's kidnapping. But, the fact remains, he did not have the keeness of judgement and personality assesment to realize the man he let into his home was an unstable nutcase, capable of bringing great harm to a child.

So, let's just say, I have nothing against Ed Smart but I'm sure not going to take his word on the McCanns guilt or innocence as the gospel truth.

I believe this is the post 2nd to last paragraph where the implication was that Ed Smart was partly responsible for the events leading to Elizabeths kidnapping.I do not think April has blown these words into anything other than what was stated by the original poster ie that he helped set up the sequence of events.