Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 21

[ThoughtFox]

From the Sky News Interview:

Kate: "There's no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm."

Except that she's missing. :waitasec: And she's just a little girl who was ripped away from her family. Define "harm".

And they say these horrendous stories from Austria "give them hope"?

So she might be held hostage in a hell hole somewhere while her teeth rot, like those poor children in Austria? And that's not "harm"?

They really need to get a grip and a reality check. The need to make themselves really read those stories from Austria, some of which have almost made me vomit more than once this week.

Yeah: Kate: "It wasn't even a decision, that's how safe it was."

Right - no "decision" means they didn't really make a bad choice. They did what "felt right" at the moment, with no conscious thought. But aren't parents supposed to do the thinking for their little children who are too young? Even animals protect their young, for heaven's sake.

"Madeleine made a passing remark, not just to Mummy by the way, 'where were you when I cried?'"

(Yeah, make sure that Mum is off the hook.)

Did I hear that right? Jerry says: There was one night when Madeleine
"came to" and started crying.

"Came To"???????? Not "woke up"????

Wait a minute - what is that about?

I honestly can't watch this anymore. *shudder*

 

[april4sky]

I have just watched the full documentary which has for me confirmed the feelings I have had all along about the case.
They are clearly suffering dreadfully and desperately missing Madeleine. IMO

If anyone is having trouble with the ITV link I was able to download the program from UKNova. We are already registered on this site so didn't have any problems. A busy site but worth trying.

http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051241

 

[Texana]

Barnaby, thanks for the correction, if you can find a working link I'd love to see the "rough" appearance, plus of course, hear it in person and not just transcripts. There's such a difference to actually hear Kate and Gerry talking.

Thoughtfox, I am relieved that you had the same reaction (Salem, I would love to hear what you think of the video clips as well.)

I find this peculiar emphasis by Kate and Gerry that "there's no evidence Madeleine has come to any harm" "alive and well cared for" "being treated like a princess" etc, very, very puzzling. They come across as defensive. They seem to be defending their acts by downplaying any consequences to Madeleine. Other than their suffering, that they miss her and want her home, and they have been "persecuted" this past year--

And by saying it wasn't even a "decision" because it felt so safe--that is such a complete, and utter abdication of ANY responsibility for their acts--What, they were unconscious when they left? They were comatose? Because that's the only way they weren't making a conscious decision.

That's why there is such anger against the McCanns, instead of sympathy on all sides, even acknowledging their mistake. Because they keep showing the same thinking they had before Madeleine disappeared. It wasn't even a "decision" and the "situation Madeleine now finds herself in," etc.

That's why they don't deserve to be advocates for anything. Whatever happened that night was a tragedy, and they refuse to acknowledge any part they played in it.

 

[RoughlyCollie]

IMO, it wasn't a "decision" because these people are sociopaths. They didn't make a decision to leave their tiny children alone because they did not care that it was wrong. It wasn't about feeling safe. It was about not caring about the kids.

It's a no-brainer to me. They have M.D. degrees, so they have brains. Sociopathy is all that is left, IMO.

I don't buy the naive story, either. M.D.s are not naive -- they see to much in their training and practices to ever get away with saying that.

"The situation Madeleine finds herself in" is just another way to distance themselves from taking any responsibility for what has happened to their daughter.

Frankly, I will be surprised as heck if M was abducted ... and if she was, it won't change my feelings and opinions about her parents.

RC

And by saying it wasn't even a "decision" because it felt so safe--t

 

[teacherbees]

It wasn't even a decision??????

Yes, Kate it was a decision. You DECIDED you wanted to have adult time, drinking and socializing and you DECIDED you didn't want the bother of having kids around and you DECIDED that your needs were more important than your children's safety and you DECIDED that it didn't matter that your little girl cried out for you the night before because she was scared and alone and you DECIDED it was OK to leave her and her baby brother and sister alone again while you went out.

Kate, you made lots of decisions that night. And they were all selfish and wrong. Your horrible decisions cost Madeline her home, family and probably her life.

 

[april4sky]

Inspector ‘No Clues’ and the bungling investigation that shames Portugal

http://www.theolivepress.es/2008/05...-bungling-investigation-that-shames-portugal/

The simple, sad truth is that in the ‘Golden Hours’, as detectives term the hours immediately after an abduction, Portuguese’s finest had been napping. Caught out on the hop, they desperately tried to fight back, to allay the blame. But now, they will forever be known as the clueless force led by, appropriately, an Inspector No Clues.

*************
No matter what anyone may feel about the McCanns there is no doubt that some of the PJ acted, and still are acting more like keystone cops.
Except these keystone cops are not funny!! IMO

 

[Texana]

Inspector ‘No Clues’ and the bungling investigation that shames Portugal

http://www.theolivepress.es/2008/05...-bungling-investigation-that-shames-portugal/

The simple, sad truth is that in the ‘Golden Hours’, as detectives term the hours immediately after an abduction, Portuguese’s finest had been napping. Caught out on the hop, they desperately tried to fight back, to allay the blame. But now, they will forever be known as the clueless force led by, appropriately, an Inspector No Clues.

*************
No matter what anyone may feel about the McCanns there is no doubt that some of the PJ acted, and still are acting more like keystone cops.
Except these keystone cops are not funny!! IMO

All the more reason one shouldn't leave small children alone, isn't it?

Relying on the police to return a kidnapping victim (if she was indeed abducted, as the jury's definitely still out on that) is like expecting the doctors at the hospital to fix you up after you've been drinking, driving, and not wearing a seat belt.

 

[Texana]

IMO, it wasn't a "decision" because these people are sociopaths. They didn't make a decision to leave their tiny children alone because they did not care that it was wrong. It wasn't about feeling safe. It was about not caring about the kids.

It's a no-brainer to me. They have M.D. degrees, so they have brains. Sociopathy is all that is left, IMO.

I don't buy the naive story, either. M.D.s are not naive -- they see to much in their training and practices to ever get away with saying that.

"The situation Madeleine finds herself in" is just another way to distance themselves from taking any responsibility for what has happened to their daughter.

Frankly, I will be surprised as heck if M was abducted ... and if she was, it won't change my feelings and opinions about her parents.

RC

I agree. No other explanation makes sense, no matter what happened to Maddie. And well said about the distancing remark. That's exactly what it is.

 

[april4sky]

All the more reason one shouldn't leave small children alone, isn't it?

Relying on the police to return a kidnapping victim (if she was indeed abducted, as the jury's definitely still out on that) is like expecting the doctors at the hospital to fix you up after you've been drinking, driving, and not wearing a seat belt.

But you wouldn't like the doctors at the hospital to bungle the job of fixing you up would you? :waitasec:

 

[Salem]

But you wouldn't like the doctors at the hospital to bungle the job of fixing you up would you? :waitasec:

Good point April, so if you wouldn't want to go to the hospital in Portugal, Mexico or Cuba because their medicine is not quite up to England's, Germany's or the US's standards, why would you put the lives of innocent babes in the hands of the foreign police force?

Its kind of like going to Mexico, where you know you have to be careful, because you are quite likely to get ripped off if you are not paying attention, the police force is notorious for being "untrustworthy" (to say the least) and you can't communicate because you don't know the language. I am not saying that Portugal has this same reputation, but in a country that does not have the same standards or quality of life and where you don't speak the language, why would you put your children at risk? Why? Why? It makes absolutely no sense.

So running it through my head - maybe there was some peer pressure (we did this in Greece, it was fine) and they succumbed. BUT once they knew their children had cried for them and wanted them, there is absolutely no excuse in the world to have left them again short of them being dead. NO EXCUSE. And for them to blow it off by saying Maddie was not really upset is, I don't know, UNEXCUSEABLE? Outrageous? Unfathomable? Over the top? I can't find the words......... any loving parent would have immediately felt guilty, apologized to their child, promised never to do it again and then, they would NOT have done it AGAIN.

I think about the fear that Maddie must have felt that night when she was crying. And yes I do think she was afraid. She was almost 4 years old, old enough to have bad dreams, old enough to have seen something, somewhere that scared her, who knows what, that came back to her when she was sleeping. And then to cry and cry and no one comes. Did she know when her parents put her to bed on May 3rd that they would be leaving her alone again? Did she go to bed that night, already afraid because she knows her parents don't come when she is in a strange place and it gets dark?

I have to stop now. K&G can blow it off all they want..... but the bottom line is they left Maddie, alone and defenseless and probably already afraid because of their actions on the previous night.

I do try sometimes to put myself in their shoes and give them the benefit of the doubt, but I never get very far because their shoes hurt my head and my heart.

Prayers for Maddie,

Salem

 

[teacherbees]

Wow, Salem! Excellent post.

I also try to put myself in Kate and Gerry's shoes and offer up a measure of understanding, but when I work out the specifics of the scenarios, I just get straight back to rage at what they did to Maddie.

Maddie told Kate she cried for her the night before. What mother wouldn't be beside herself with guilt and sadness over the image of their toddler child alone in a strange country, crying out in the night for mommy and daddy? Nighttime is scary for little children, even when they're home in their own beds - much less far away in unfamiliar surroundings.

When I get to the part where Kate and Gerry choose to leave again the next night, I do wonder if they didn't drug their kids. Either that or they are they are completely selfish and terrible parents. Something had to give them that illusion that it was fine to leave their kids alone for yet another evening of adult socialization.

They left the doors to their unit unlocked, knowing full well if Maddie awoke the night before, she could do it again that night. What parent would do that???????? With a swimming pool just outside the door, strange terrain, and language barriers, those two educated doctors, Kate and Gerry, decided their pleasure was worth more than tending to the three babies they were supposed to protect.

And then Kate has the nerve to say leaving them wasn't even a decision because it was so safe????? How stupid does this woman think we all are? No decent mother on the planet is going to agree with her desperate rationalization that it was safe to walk away from three babies left to fend for themselves in an unlocked strange apartment.

Like you Salem, I can't think about it too long because my heart breaks for Maddie. It's bad enough she was possibly abducted and most likely dead...worse to then have to listen to her parents completely negate Maddie's terror and tragic fate so they can make the story all about their sorry, narcissistic selves.

 

[Zelda]

ABC's 20/20 will have a documentary about Madeleine tonight (Friday) at 10pm PT. I think it is on at the same time in ET. Check your listings.

 

[Texana]

But you wouldn't like the doctors at the hospital to bungle the job of fixing you up would you? :waitasec:

I wouldn't expect them to be able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, either.

I saw the tail end of a kidnapping case in Florida that is in the news right now. The young man was kidnapped, ransom paid, and over a month later, he's still not returned home safely (and no proof he's alive.) The FBI and presumably much better LE that the Portuguese has been involved, and yet, no happy ending.

The truth is, everything could have been done right and Madeleine still (if truly abducted) not returned safely. The police are never the perfect fix-it guys.

I don't see how the Portuguese police could be blamed for doing less to protect Maddie, for money, than the McCanns did to protect her for love.

Side note: Kate consistently repeats how "safe" the resort felt. From where did that safe feeling come? Those bungling Portuguese police. How did they ever manage to make the resort and the town feel so nice and safe for all those British tourists?

 

[colomom]

IMO, it wasn't a "decision" because these people are sociopaths. They didn't make a decision to leave their tiny children alone because they did not care that it was wrong. It wasn't about feeling safe. It was about not caring about the kids.

It's a no-brainer to me. They have M.D. degrees, so they have brains. Sociopathy is all that is left, IMO.

I don't buy the naive story, either. M.D.s are not naive -- they see to much in their training and practices to ever get away with saying that.

"The situation Madeleine finds herself in" is just another way to distance themselves from taking any responsibility for what has happened to their daughter.

Frankly, I will be surprised as heck if M was abducted ... and if she was, it won't change my feelings and opinions about her parents.

RC

This makes alot of sense to me as well, RC. With what I know so far, I have to agree. Such a shame...

 

[Texana]

This makes alot of sense to me as well, RC. With what I know so far, I have to agree. Such a shame...

You know Colomom, I really feel we have tried not to condemn the McCanns but their behavior, over and over, for months and months. But even now--at the one year anniversary--it's not about Madeleine. And that is precisely why we all are here, isn't it? Because it was never about what was best for those three children, no matter what happened, and we may never (sadly) know.

I feel a kind of turning point in my own opinion of them. I've tried for months and months as I know you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I've waited for other explanations and tried to understand how the situation might cause them to act or say what they did (the past tense verbs, the "princess" and other comments, the balloon launches, the traveling, the jogging...and on, and on, and on.)

But no more. This was their final chance to prove all that wrong, and yet, once again, they acted exactly as they did that night.

They dismiss the feelings of their children (Gerry: "Children cry all the time,") in explaining why they didn't take seriously Maddie's comment about waking up and crying for them, why didn't you come Mummy, et al.

They focus again on themselves--"have been persecuted this past year."

They don't accept any responsibility--not the slightest--for the fact that their repeated decision to leave their children alone put them at risk. If anything, they continue to pass the blame on to everyone else involved and make excuses. (No buggy, no baby listening service--never mind the nighttime creche or night sitter service offered instead--no decision was really ever made, it wasn't even a decision.)

The only explanation is that at heart, the McCanns have a core of untouched self-centered behavior that can best be described as sociopathic. They don't really empathize with Madeleine because they can't. Gerry, at six months absence, can't even bring himself to say for certain whether or not Madeleine might be suffering.

Either that, or long ago, for reasons we may never know, the McCanns accepted that Maddie was no longer living, and they have since moved through the process of grief and their words and acts reflect that.

No other explanations work anymore.

 

[Salem]

RC - I wanted to say earlier, before I got so long-winded, welcome. It's nice to see you here again.

And I agree, MD's are not naive.

Teacherbees - thanks.

And was it Thoughtfox that pointed out Gerry's words in one of the videos: "she came too" Really poor choice of words given all the speculation about the possibility of their drugging the kids. Really raises that hinky meter AGAIN!

Salem

 

[Texana]

RC - I wanted to say earlier, before I got so long-winded, welcome. It's nice to see you here again.

And I agree, MD's are not naive.

Teacherbees - thanks.

And was it Thoughtfox that pointed out Gerry's words in one of the videos: "she came too" Really poor choice of words given all the speculation about the possibility of their drugging the kids. Really raises that hinky meter AGAIN!

Salem

Creeps you out, doesn't it?

Have you watched the BBC video clips yet? I'm curious to see how they strike you.

 

[Barnaby]

You know I was going to quote & reply to all the posts that have been made since I was last here but it would be a huge post so decided against it! Sufficient to say that I totally agree with everything that Texana, Salem, Colomom, Thoughtfox, Roughlycollie & Teacherbees have said in the preceding posts & Texana, sorry I have searched for a link to the programme & cannot find a working one, I will keep looking!

I have just one thing to say to anyone who can still support the McCanns in any way! This may be unpleasant & if Mods wish to delete it that is fine!
I would ask them to stop for a minute & think what it would be like to be raped, I think I am safe to presume that all are adults here! So as an adult just think how horrific it would be to be raped then murdered!
Bottom line is most pedophiles who abduct children rape them, then murder them! Think of the terror! Now apply that to a 4 year old! A 4 year old child who hasn't a clue what is happening, hasn't a hope in hell of fighting back & who is agonisingly ripped apart then murdered by whatever means, none pleasant that's for sure! Think of that child's terror!
Now defend her parent's actions to me if you can!

The cruel & callous decision that the McCanns made to leave their child after knowing that she cried for them the night before faciltated whatever happened to Madeleine! Her horror is their fault, end of!

If Gerry thinks that someone took this child to treat her like a princess he is sorely deluded & you know what, it is actually kinder to think that she died quickly in an accident then to dare to think of what she suffered at the hands of a pedophile! She was 4 years of age for God's sake, the chances are that if she was abducted she was raped before being killed! Noone abducted her for anything else!

How a parent of a child who may have suffered this fate could act as the McCanns did in PDL last May - make up, jewellery, smiles, grins, jogging, no tears etc. etc makes them not even human!

They caused this by callously leaving her alone to her fate! Nothing that anyone says in their defence will ever change this! Only a mother totally devoid of any parental instinct could have made this decision! If that child was abducted & the McCanns are innocent of her death then they are even more responsible for her horrible dastardly fate!

How they can continue to have the audacity to show their faces in public never mind spin their revolting crap on TV amazes me, they should be hiding their bloody heads in shame! They may not have killed their daughter directly, which I am not convinced of but they sure as hell made it easy for whoever did! They may as well have handed her over! I hope their night of carousing was worth it!

I ask anyone who supports them & who at the same time has kids or any regard for kids - if this was your daughter would you look so well in pics? Would you go buy clothes, jewellery, have your hair done & laugh with your husband or would you be tormented by thoughts 24/7 of what may have happened to your flesh & blood?
Look at them on television, do they look like tormented people to you? Only answer to that is NO!
They are demented sociopaths & I am ending now because even typing this is making me feel ill!
Shame on you Gerry & Kate McCann!

 

[colomom]

You know Colomom, I really feel we have tried not to condemn the McCanns but their behavior, over and over, for months and months. But even now--at the one year anniversary--it's not about Madeleine. And that is precisely why we all are here, isn't it? Because it was never about what was best for those three children, no matter what happened, and we may never (sadly) know.
~snipped for space~

I have been meaning to respond to your PM, and I will straight away but, I saw this post and just had to respond to you Tex, my good buddy...

I wish I could give you a big hug in person, because I know that coming to this place regarding the McCanns is painful. I know because I feel it too. I find no joy, no pleasure in thinking that these people are so seriously disturbed. I feel fear and revulsion. I fear for other children that live in seemingly normal, or even affluent homes and may be living in hell on earth. This case has brought me to a very scary place where I realize many of us cannot "see" the deception in our fellow man. Many of us cannot "sense" the evil in a person. There is nothing we do, our hands are bound. There is no way that I can fight the government intervention, the professional spin-doctors, the media failure. I cannot fight the powers that feed this evil. Who can I trust? No one.

Since June last year I have spent countless hours here and on other sites (including some that deeply disturbed my soul) and I have seen such ugliness and cruelty and I have been so afraid for my children. I have cried for little girls and boys brutalized by those who should love and care for them above all else. I have seen such a dark side to mankind that it made me wish I had never brought my babies into this world. That has been very hard for me. At first I wanted to just stop coming here, just go back to my nice, quiet, suburban life with my 2 kids and my house on the corner. I tried a number of times but something kept pulling me back. Something much stronger that my own will. I would read those sites and cry myself to sleep and I would beg God not to let evil win.

Funny thing has happened in the last couple of weeks. I have stopped reading those sites like Dreamin Demon and Missing and Murdered Children and others. I just lost interest, don't ask me why, nothing has changed. I have begun to feel a sense of peace and relief which has been hard to pinpoint. Maybe it's because it is spring and time for renewal, maybe it's because we completely demolished our bathroom and are remodeling, maybe it's because we are painting the house, maybe it's because vacation is 5 weeks away!!! I have still felt drawn to you all and need to bring you the articles that catch my eye and pique my interest and, of course, the Portuguese press. But something is in the air.

I hope, hope, hope that it is because this is all drawing to a close and my heart hopes it is because Maddie knows that justice is coming and she is not as frantic and afraid. I pray that God will hear our prayers and bring us closure, all of us, no matter what we think or how we feel about the McCanns and this horrible thing that happened.

Right now it is early in the morning of May 3rd 2008 in Praia Da Luz, Portugal. My heart is heavy with sadness for Madeleine but my spirit is light with hope for the coming days. We have all been so vigilant and dedicated and no matter what happens, we should celebrate JUSTICE for a little girl that has no voice. We should be proud that we were her voice and we tried so hard to make sure that she was heard. I am proud to call you all friend and I will never in my life forget this past year.

Thank you for being heroes for Maddie.

:blowkiss:

 

[Barnaby]

Colomom. you are one of the most caring people on this board & there are many that I am proud to be aquainted with here!
Your dedication & efforts in bringing us the most up to date news on this sad case is appreciated by me & I think I can speak for most on this board.
I am so glad that you have stayed here, I would miss you dreadfully if you left!
Good luck with the renovations & take heart, it may take time but evil will not win in the end!
This case has been so painful for most of us. We all took to heart a little child who was let down by the people into whose care she was placed! The people who should have valued & protected her!
I don't think that little Madeleine is suffering anymore, I think she is now an angel & her suffering is over!
Today is a sad day, we all reflect on this time last year when she may have been alive & well & the tragedy could have been averted!
However, that will achieve nothing. I pray that Madeleine is happy now & in a place where she can never be hurt again!
Sleep well little girl, may you never feel hurt, pain nor abandonment ever again!