Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 23

[april4sky]

I think you twist a little bit in your defense of them.

Pro Maddie does not equal anti-McCain. They have not been found innocent and no one else has be found guilty. Till then imo only Maddie matters.

Unfounded rumours twist things IMO.
I think we are all Pro Madeleine!
Pro Madeleine shouldn't equal Anti-McCann but it often does IMO.

As for them not found innocent...there have been no charges.

I agree regarding Madeleine.

 

[Rino]

As for them not found innocent...there have been no charges.

That has little to do with their innocence or guilt

 

[Salem]

Thank you, Tony! There it is in black and white - the truth.


But again I ask you, if you believe Madeleine was taken to another country, how are the PJ responsible for what happened after that?

It seems to me you just don't believe the PJ had a right to question the McCanns about anything they did that night. But Gerry and Kate gave public interviews and made statements about what they did and did not do, so the PJ had a right to question them.

Trust me - in the U.S. the parents would be suspects, no matter how sympathetic people might be to them. That's for the police to decide and not us.

I agree Thoughtfox. I believe in the US, the McCanns would be in jail because we don't allow "baby" listening here, thank goodness. I think the only way they would have escaped jail would have been by a very large outpouring of sympathy. I don't think they would have found that sympathy here though - because we don't allow baby listening. Upon learning that 2 well-educated parents left their 3 children, under the age of 4, to fend for themselves, they would have been the No. 1 suspects, from the git go. If Ms. Fenn would have called the police here, they would have responded to the apartment with CPS and taken the children right then and there.

In a way I feel sorry for Portugal. This particular place depends quite heavily on its tourist market and this event, and all its nuances, have created quite the political situation for them.

And Tony - why do you not try to bring your action of negligence in Portugal? They should have jurisdiction because the crime happened there. Or, I think I would do my best to put together some very convincing legal arguments for having the matter heard in England. Do you know if the High Court has ever done such a thing before?

Salem

 

[april4sky]

That has little to do with their innocence or guilt

Agreed!

 

[Salem]

They don't control the country (ies) where she might be, and have no power to search for her other than within Portugal. The McCanns' response to the private individual who had the reservoir searched was very negative.

And let's chase that rabbit down the trail for a minute: Why were the McCanns so negative about searching the reservoir? Are they only interested in following up on live sightings of Madeleine? As understandable as that might be, it's not realistic to not look for Madeleine alive or not, so why were they so publicly against searching for her there?

Shortened your post a bit, Texana. I think this is very important in the scheme of things. Why were the McCanns so negative about this search? Quite honestly, their reaction to the private searcher was very telling. They should have been giving him money from the Find Madeline fund. They have never funded any search except the bumblings of Metodo3.

I was really sure this guy had received some info, not from a "criminal element" but from one of the Tapas themselves and was very disappointed that he came up empty handed. While he could have been after the reward, it still seems like a very expensive undertaking when you have no guarantee and I did not think the private searcher would do such a thing without some degree of confidence that he would be successful.

That the McCanns refused to take part in this search or contribute leads me to believe that they knew Maddie was not there.

April - just an aside. Everytime I think the PJ have stopped looking for Maddie, some new article or such is published telling how the PJ have gone here or there in their continued search. I don't think the PJ have given up the search, unless they know where she is, I think we are just not hearing about it. We should be hearing more in the next two weeks from the media, due to the expiration of the secrecy and the month long holiday. I do believe the PJ are still looking

Salem

 

[ThoughtFox]

Unfounded rumours twist things IMO.

You are making a choice to use the word "unfounded" about every piece of information, even when it comes directly from the McCanns and not from PJ.

"Unfounded" is a sweeping generalization as long as you insist that everything we know is an unfounded rumor. My point is just that there are lists of facts right here on this thread that are neither rumors nor falsehoods.

 

[Texana]

Shortened your post a bit, Texana. I think this is very important in the scheme of things. Why were the McCanns so negative about this search? Quite honestly, their reaction to the private searcher was very telling. They should have been giving him money from the Find Madeline fund. They have never funded any search except the bumblings of Metodo3.

I was really sure this guy had received some info, not from a "criminal element" but from one of the Tapas themselves and was very disappointed that he came up empty handed. While he could have been after the reward, it still seems like a very expensive undertaking when you have no guarantee and I did not think the private searcher would do such a thing without some degree of confidence that he would be successful.

That the McCanns refused to take part in this search or contribute leads me to believe that they knew Maddie was not there.

Salem

Thanks, Salem. I think we really need to take another look at the McCanns' reaction to that search. Why were they opposed to the search? Why did they make any negative comment at all?

If Madeleine was truly abducted by a stranger then the McCanns have no way of knowing where she is at all or if she is alive. They are in no position to know anything certain about her at this point. Any search, anywhere, that comes up negative is another piece of evidence as to where she is not.

So why did the McCanns react negatively and publicly so, to that search?

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Thanks, Salem. I think we really need to take another look at the McCanns' reaction to that search. Why were they opposed to the search? Why did they make any negative comment at all?

If Madeleine was truly abducted by a stranger then the McCanns have no way of knowing where she is at all or if she is alive. They are in no position to know anything certain about her at this point. Any search, anywhere, that comes up negative is another piece of evidence as to where she is not.

So why did the McCanns react negatively and publicly so, to that search?

Probably because that is where they dumped her. After all the time that had lapsed, her poor little body (I hate to even type this...sorry) was probably decayed and consumed by the animal kingdom.

I had a roommate in collage who was a clepto. She was always stealing crap from me, and after awhile I questioned her about various missing items, but most importantly an expensive pair of jeans. She adamantly denied seeing them, or any of the other things I mentioned. The next day she brought it back up and offered to let me search her closet...I said I rather look in her dresser, (Just because she so readily offered her closet, and I knew she was lying) but she refused to let me, and began ranting things about trust and honesty and how I was accusing her blah, blah, blah. She grew very upset and nervous. I just said to forget it, and that I was sorry for offending her...basically I let her off the hook. Later when she was in class, I looked in her dresser...didn't find my jeans, but I did find a pair of my earrings a watch and a book of mine...I moved out the following weekend.

Point is, people get nervous when they feel they are about to be busted. I think the McCanns put something in that reservoir (either Madeleine or ties to her death), and were terribly afraid of it being found. Since then, they are cockier than ever...Heck, for all we know, it could have all been a huge set up/act, and the dude was paid, blackmailed or bribed to search there by the fund benefactors to keep the police from doing it again, of course this is just speculation, nothing more, and as always, in my humble oppenion.

Anyone have a link to the satellite/google map of the reservoir handy?

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Unfounded rumours twist things IMO.
I think we are all Pro Madeleine!
Pro Madeleine shouldn't equal Anti-McCann but it often does IMO.

As for them not found innocent...there have been no charges.

I agree regarding Madeleine.

April, truly, I don't mean to always be picking at your comments, but I do have to say i always crack up when you talk about rumors being unfounded...etc.

I'm sure you all get sick of me talking about my life on the farm, but there is something to be learned about small towns. Rumors are an EVERYDAY occurrence in the boonies of Nebraska USA. Unfortunately, many people LIVE for the rumor mill. It is a source of entertainment for some, and plain old nosiness for others. I like to think of it as keeping up on my neighbors . Honesty, I try never to start a rumor, but have to admit that I have spread them on a few occasions...Not a very Christian thing to do. :slap:Anyway, I've lived here for 20 years. In the 20 years that I have been subjected to an array of rumors, I have NEVER heard one that was untrue. They are always true. Joe really did get caught by his wife in the cornfield with Katrina the barmaid, Brad really did get his best friends wife pregnant, John did get a DWI and Kevin really is gay. Why lie when the truth is interesting enough.

People don't need to makeup nasty stuff about the McCanns, they are bad enough to make the truth interesting.:doh:

 

[Tony Bennett]

Salem wrote:

"And Tony - why do you not try to bring your action of negligence in Portugal?"

REPLY: It would be utterly impractical, absolutley prohobitively expensive, and I don't know except in outline terms what the Portuguese law on child neglect is.

Salem wrote:

"They should have jurisdiction because the crime happened there".

REPLY: I disagree, so far as the child neglect issue is concerned. As I have already posted, Salem, Article 17 of the Hague Convention is quite clear in laying down a protocol that child protection issues should be determined in the country where the parents are resident.

Salem wrote:

"Or, I think I would do my best to put together some very convincing legal arguments for having the matter heard in England. Do you know if the High Court has ever done such a thing before?"

REPLY: All criminal cases in this country begin with an application for a summons in the Magistrates Court. The nearest case I can think to this was where a couple had a two-week holiday in the Mediterranean somwehere, leaviug their two, or was it three? young children in the case of, I think, a 13-year-old 'babysitter' in the UK, with predictable results. The couple were of course prosecuted in the U.K., not in the country where they holidayed. I have not ruled out further action in the U.K. but I would need support from others to obtain a comprehensive legal opinion from a barrister who is familiar with both child neglect law and international law

+++++++++++++++

A summary of the crimes the McCanns may have committed under English law and for which I believe they could be tried in this country, subject to Portuguese agreement:

Murder

or

Manslaughter

or

Unlawful killing by gross negligence

and

Perverting the course of justice

and

Interfering with the course of justice

and

Disposing of a body or conspiring with others to do so and frustrating the holding of an inquest

and

Child neglect - Children and Young Persons Act 1933

and (if they know what happened to Madeleine) in relation to the establishment of the Find Madeleine Trust Fund:

Fraud

and

Obtaining money by deception.

There could be other charges under the Theft Act 1968.

+++++++++++

If the Portuguese police bottle out of bringing any charges, then Madeleine's best hope of justice, I believe, will be an inquest, either in Portugal or in the U.K.

Inquests are routinely held on missing persons, especially where there is evidence of a possible crime. The delay in holding an inquest on a missing person varies from country to country (many countries have minimum periods like 6 months or 1 year before an inquest can be held) and, of course, on all the circumstances

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[Barnaby]

Thanks, Salem. I think we really need to take another look at the McCanns' reaction to that search. Why were they opposed to the search? Why did they make any negative comment at all?

If Madeleine was truly abducted by a stranger then the McCanns have no way of knowing where she is at all or if she is alive. They are in no position to know anything certain about her at this point. Any search, anywhere, that comes up negative is another piece of evidence as to where she is not.

So why did the McCanns react negatively and publicly so, to that search?

I agree their negative reaction to this search was very strange. They have to have considered the possibility that Madeleine was dead & her body dumped, therefore they should have welcomed this search if only to rule out her being there!

Probably because that is where they dumped her. After all the time that had lapsed, her poor little body (I hate to even type this...sorry) was probably decayed and consumed by the animal kingdom.
snip
Point is, people get nervous when they feel they are about to be busted. I think the McCanns put something in that reservoir (either Madeleine or ties to her death), and were terribly afraid of it being found. Since then, they are cockier than ever...Heck, for all we know, it could have all been a huge set up/act, and the dude was paid, blackmailed or bribed to search there by the fund benefactors to keep the police from doing it again, of course this is just speculation, nothing more, and as always, in my humble oppenion.

Anyone have a link to the satellite/google map of the reservoir handy?

Sorry don't have the map to hand.
I do agree that you may have a point with your theory! I always thought that search by a private man very strange!

 

[Texana]

Right, Barnaby, if the search ruled out that she wasn't there, that's a good thing.

Interested Woman, you do have a point--why do they react with such certainty and negativity to searches that involve Madeleine's remains? They Admitted themselves in an earlier interview that the outcome for child kidnappings is not a positive one.

 

[april4sky]

April, truly, I don't mean to always be picking at your comments, but I do have to say i always crack up when you talk about rumors being unfounded...etc.

Sorry IW but truly I think you do.

 

[april4sky]

April-Everytime I think the PJ have stopped looking for Maddie, some new article or such is published telling how the PJ have gone here or there in their continued search. I don't think the PJ have given up the search, unless they know where she is, I think we are just not hearing about it. We should be hearing more in the next two weeks from the media, due to the expiration of the secrecy and the month long holiday. I do believe the PJ are still looking

Salem

I really hope you are right Salem.
But searching would normally include appeals to the public, which is why I have my doubts.

 

[Salem]

Where we come from, April, that would probably be true. However, it seems to be different in Portugal. Don't give up hope. Like I said, there should be more in the media in the coming weeks. Some kind of buildup before the summer holiday. We will hear more then.

I believe Portugese LE wants to find Maddie for many different reasons. And truthfully, I don't care what their reasons are as long as they keep looking and hopefully find her.

Salem

 

[Salem]

REPLY: I disagree, so far as the child neglect issue is concerned. As I have already posted, Salem, Article 17 of the Hague Convention is quite clear in laying down a protocol that child protection issues should be determined in the country where the parents are resident.

REPLY: All criminal cases in this country begin with an application for a summons in the Magistrates Court. The nearest case I can think to this was where a couple had a two-week holiday in the Mediterranean somwehere, leaviug their two, or was it three? young children in the case of, I think, a 13-year-old 'babysitter' in the UK, with predictable results. The couple were of course prosecuted in the U.K., not in the country where they holidayed. I have not ruled out further action in the U.K. but I would need support from others to obtain a comprehensive legal opinion from a barrister who is familiar with both child neglect law and international law

If the Portuguese police bottle out of bringing any charges, then Madeleine's best hope of justice, I believe, will be an inquest, either in Portugal or in the U.K.

Inquests are routinely held on missing persons, especially where there is evidence of a possible crime. The delay in holding an inquest on a missing person varies from country to country (many countries have minimum periods like 6 months or 1 year before an inquest can be held) and, of course, on all the circumstances

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I shortened your post some just for the sake of space. Hope you don't mind.

I understand your need for a barrister. However, it might be possible to do some research yourself. You could do a search on the specific provision of the Hague Convention and see if the English High Court has ever undertaken a case where this provision was at issue. That could give you an idea of what may happen if you were to get your case to court. I know English law is different from US law, but there are a lot of similarities and I believe one of those similarities is that decisions made by the high court hold precedant and other cases presented on the same legal points will be decided in the same manner.

I think the case of the couple with young children left in the care of an inadequate babysitter, while similar would be construed differently by the courts IF the children remained in England while the parents went off to the Med. without them. Then the crime happened in England, which is different from what happened here.

I am not familar with the inquest process. We don't do that here that I know of and if we do, I would venture to guess it is a rarity.

Here, in the US, criminal actions must be brought by the Prosecutor or the State, not by private parties. A private party may bring a civil action, but not a criminal action. If I wanted to bring a criminal action, I would have to go to the local police and press charges against the person. Then the Prosecutor's office would decide whether or not to prosecute the case. However, I could bring a civil suit against the person for whatever reason. Is that how it works in England? Would it be a civil suit that you would have press?

Maybe talking to the Leischersire (sp?) police and telling them you would like to press charges against the McCanns on behalf of Maddie and the twins?

I don't know, I feel like I am grasping at straws. Have you talked to any Barristers that have shown an interest in the case? Do lawyers over there do pro bono work?

I'm tired......... and I'm rambling now, so I'll stop:crazy:

Salem

 

[april4sky]

Where we come from, April, that would probably be true. However, it seems to be different in Portugal. Don't give up hope. Like I said, there should be more in the media in the coming weeks. Some kind of buildup before the summer holiday. We will hear more then.

I believe Portugese LE wants to find Maddie for many different reasons.And truthfully, I don't care what their reasons are as long as they keep looking and hopefully find her.

Salem

I hope you are right Salem. :blowkiss:

 

[april4sky]

Police 'closing' Madeleine case

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7482799.stm

Portuguese police are closing the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, according to local media reports.
******
Too soon to know if there is any truth to this!

 

[SleuthMom]

Interestedwoman:

Brian Kennedy and the fund shell out major bucks each month voluntarily for the M3 who told us back in December, "We know who has her, where she is at and she'll be home in time for Christmas". Is that the competent professional investigation you are talking about? It was a blatant lie.

Interesting that April chose not to answer that question.:waitasec:

If someone told you that about your missing child, and didn't even come close to following through would you continue to employ them?Wouldn't you be crushed, hurt and grieve even more?

Not me BUT remember is not their money they are using so they don't care.

 

[Barnaby]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Madeleine-McCann-Case-Has-Not-Been-Dropped-By-Police-Says-Portugals-Attorney-General/Article/200807115018221?lpos=World%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15018221_Madeleine%2BMcCann%2BCase%2BHas%2BNot%2BBeen%2BDropped%2BBy%2BPolice%252C%2BSays%2BPortugal%2527s%2BAttorney%2BGeneral



Madeleine Case 'Not Dropped'





Media reports suggested the investigation into the British girl's disappearance was being discontinued because of lack of evidence.

But in a statement the Portuguese Attorney General, Fernando Pinto Monteiro, denied this.
The statement said that police had handed over their final report but that officials had made no decision on whether to halt the investigation...................................