Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 23

[april4sky]

April,

The DNA match was not conclusive to Madeleine but did not rule her out, was my understanding. !5 out of 19 markers that tied to her?

I have been at a seminar all day but I'll go back and re-read the report for a second time to make sure.

Texana do you remember this little gem?......

Madeleine McCann: ‘hair found in car’

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:swh73QagGE4J:www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2007/09/12/madeleine-mccann-hair-found-in-car-100252-19779390/+Madeleine%27s+hair+found+in+car&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=au

But police sources in Portugal claimed the find of hair was “significant” and could not have come from her clothing or belongings.
***********

Madeleines and the rest of the families belongings were in the apartment and the car….so it would be very strange if Madeleines DNA wasn’t!!
And after tests on the hair claimed to have been found in the car, "or was this nothing more another PJ smear," the PJ would know if it had come from a live or dead body….According to forensic pathologist Dr Michael Baden.

MOST TELLING!!!....The PJ still included abduction amongst their theories!!!

 

[Salem]

Hey - did everybody know that in the Justice forum, there is a thread on Maddie? I when there when I was waiting for WS to come back up yesterday. I didn't read much, but found it interesting that there was another forum, linked to this one, going on.

Salem

 

[Texana]

Excellent point, April, thank you for bringing it up.

The FSS (Forensic Science Service in G. Britain) lacks the ability to discern whether a hair sample is from a living or dead person. They refused to send the sample to a European lab which did have that capability.

Testing on the hair sample stalled at the point of identification, with the Portuguese asking to send the sample to the European lab and the British authorities refusing.

If the DNA could not be matched completely, wouldn't it still be relevant to know whether or not the hair sample was from a living or dead person? With one missing child, it would seem important to know whether or not a hair came from a living or dead person when found in the trunk of a car--unless one supposes that corpses are regularly transported about resorts by tourists in rental cars.

So the question as to whether the hair sample was from a living or dead person hasn't been answered, and can't be answered by the FSS, who still retain control of it all the same.

 

[colomom]

Excellent point, April, thank you for bringing it up.

The FSS (Forensic Science Service in G. Britain) lacks the ability to discern whether a hair sample is from a living or dead person. They refused to send the sample to a European lab which did have that capability.

Testing on the hair sample stalled at the point of identification, with the Portuguese asking to send the sample to the European lab and the British authorities refusing.

If the DNA could not be matched completely, wouldn't it still be relevant to know whether or not the hair sample was from a living or dead person? With one missing child, it would seem important to know whether or not a hair came from a living or dead person when found in the trunk of a car--unless one supposes that corpses are regularly transported about resorts by tourists in rental cars.

So the question as to whether the hair sample was from a living or dead person hasn't been answered, and can't be answered by the FSS, who still retain control of it all the same.

And this from the best forensics lab in the world....yea, riiiiiight.

It stinks.

 

[Texana]

Perhaps some of our British posters/WS members can make a day trip to the FSS lab and ask in person what's going on.

Everything is Great Britain is so picturesque anyway. It might make for a lovely day trip.

 

[Texana]

Thanks, Colomom for the link today in Portuguese Press thread.

According to Kate's own notes, the arrangement was to receive positive press from the British media, in return for exclusive photo shoot arrangements.

"Concerning the editor of the ‘Sun’ newspaper, on the 11th of July Kate was assured that there would be no “adverse publicity”: “She was really nice. Perfect solution”, Maddie’s mother noted."

The amount of time, effort, energy and thought that went into coordinating the media campaign is astounding to me. It was always evident, but I never realized to what extent the McCanns were active and willing directors, not just participants.

There is so much focus on the media campaign and so little talk in Kate's notes about actual efforts to find Madeleine. She notes she refuses early on to talk to Portuguese reporters--why would you stop talking to the people who communicate in the country your child disappeared in? Why would you literally stop talking to the people you should be making your first, best allies?

Why were the British media so important?

And why, as always, was Madeleine so unimportant that from the beginning, the focus is on a media campaign featuring her parents--shots of them with the twins--etc, etc.

Why would any parent with one supposedly abducted child agree to a photo shoot with the other two? Talk about the old "let's focus on Madeleine."

:scream:

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Thanks, Colomom for the link today in Portuguese Press thread. ...snip


Why would any parent with one supposedly abducted child agree to a photo shoot with the other two? Talk about the old "let's focus on Madeleine."

:scream:

Very odd indeed. If you were mugged and robbed while wearing a priceless diamond necklace, would you have the nerve to feature the matching diamond earrings in a media photo shoot? It's like saying..."HEY, Looky what else I have, you forgot these!"

 

[Texana]

Very odd indeed. If you were mugged and robbed while wearing a priceless diamond necklace, would you have the nerve to feature the matching diamond earrings in a media photo shoot? It's like saying..."HEY, Looky what else I have, you forgot these!"

Exactly. And why feature the twins at all? Who cares what they look like? Some people might be actually turned off and not "look" for Madeleine--with the happy family shown in the photos!

They were clearly controlling the media and calling the shots, with first Justine and then Clarence organizing and controlling access as well.

All they had to do was say NO. No photos of the twins, but here are some photos of Madeleine...Remember how long it took to get a current photo of Maddie? It wasn't immediate, was it?

 

[april4sky]

Excellent point, April, thank you for bringing it up.

The FSS (Forensic Science Service in G. Britain) lacks the ability to discern whether a hair sample is from a living or dead person. They refused to send the sample to a European lab which did have that capability.

I don't think so.
Did you get this little gem via the PJ?

The FSS is renowned as one of the best in the world.

Interesting that besides the McCanns, their friends, Mitchell, before him McGuinnes, the UK police, the UK government. the Press, "even though they were sued by the McCanns", many of the witnesses, and now we have the FSS in Birmingham being smeared.
There are probably more but I haven't yet seen all the PJ's report.

I think this shows the conspiracy theorists have lost the plot.

 

[Texana]

I don't think so.
Did you get this little gem via the PJ?

The FSS is renowned as one of the best in the world.

Yes, it's an excellent crime lab, and the PJ was being quite correct in acknowledging that

However, they don't have the ability to tell whether or not a hair sample is a from living or dead person. You can be really excellent overall and still lack some specialized capacity. Who knows why they don't perform that test? Could be the administrators of the lab don't agree it's a valid test. Could require some specialized training and expensive equipment they don't think justifies the test itself--after all, most of the time you have either a corpse or a living person. So do you invest in some specialized equipment that gets used once a year, or do you buy more equipment for the routine DNA and other tests that mean trials don't get backed up waiting for your analyses?

That's not a smear, that's just a fact of budgets and serving the public. It doesn't make the lab any less excellent if they don't perform every test on the planet. It just is what it is.

Which brings us back to the main point, and again, you did an excellent job in bringing this point to the forefront:

The hair sample hasn't been tested as to whether or not it came from a living or dead person. The hair sample still resides with FSS, and identification as to whether it came from Madeleine or not appears to have been stalled.

( I say appears because to the best of my knowledge, they did not release official results of testing the hair or any conclusions from their tests.)

 

[april4sky]

Yes, it's an excellent crime lab, and the PJ was being quite correct in acknowledging that

However, they don't have the ability to tell whether or not a hair sample is a from living or dead person. You can be really excellent overall and still lack some specialized capacity. Who knows why they don't perform that test? Could be the administrators of the lab don't agree it's a valid test. Could require some specialized training and expensive equipment they don't think justifies the test itself--after all, most of the time you have either a corpse or a living person. So do you invest in some specialized equipment that gets used once a year, or do you buy more equipment for the routine DNA and other tests that mean trials don't get backed up waiting for your analyses?

That's not a smear, that's just a fact of budgets and serving the public. It doesn't make the lab any less excellent if they don't perform every test on the planet. It just is what it is.

Which brings us back to the main point, and again, you did an excellent job in bringing this point to the forefront:

The hair sample hasn't been tested as to whether or not it came from a living or dead person. The hair sample still resides with FSS, and identification as to whether it came from Madeleine or not appears to have been stalled.

( I say appears because to the best of my knowledge, they did not release official results of testing the hair or any conclusions from their tests.)

I still don't know where the claim, "which I don't accept", came from that the FSS refused to send hair samples to a European lab!!

The reason the samples were sent to the FSS in Birmingham was because of it's very high reputation.
Why do you think the PJ sent the hair sample there if they were not equipped to test it?
Didn't they know?
Do you think the FSS wouldn't have told them this important "fact"??

I believe it was reported early on that samples were also sent to a Portuguese lab.:waitasec:

 

[colomom]

Madeleine McCann: Reversed Investigation

Talking with Pinto da Costa – Forensic Medicine Expert

Reversed Investigation

In the book ‘The Truth of The Lie’ Gonçalo Amaral, the PJ coordinator who was removed from the ‘Maddie Case’ has no doubts about the death of the girl. Pinto da Costa follows his considerations.

Specialist in Forensic Medicine, Pinto da Costa supports the thesis followed by Gonçalo Amaral, which points to the death of Madeleine McCann. The professor does not understand the reason why the analyses done by the British laboratory are not conclusive and he manifests the conviction that, soon or later, the truth will be known. The biggest problem, according to the President of the Portuguese Section of International Transparency [sic], resided in the incorrect way the investigation was carried out. Pinto da Costa understands that the death hypothesis should have been pursued since the beginning.

Do you believe in the thesis defended by Gonçalo Amaral, according to which Madeleine McCann died accidentally in the night of her disappearance?

It does seem possible that that has taken place based on the circumstances of the cadaver dogs who signalled [death triggers] the existence of a cadaver and, also of blood with the genetic profile of the girl.

The English Laboratory said the analyses are not conclusive...

What the Laboratory concluded was that, in a total of 19 alleles [genetic markers], 15 are present in the sample examined. In Portugal, in order to guarantee the authenticity of progeny [descendants, children], that is, in the paternity tests we use 15 alleles. Therefore, the results obtained by the British Laboratory are extremely significant. Thus, they seem, pertinent in the consideration that the child could have died in the apartment. Another hypothesis is that she could have died outside and then the body was moved inside [the apartment].

Isn’t there, in Portugal, technical capacity to do this kind of analyses?

Yes, they could have been done in Portugal. I believe that either the Scientific Police Laboratory of the Judiciary Police or the various Forensic Medicine Institutes have the conditions to perform them. That did not happen possibly for the reason that the persons at issue were of English nationality.

~snip~

Source: Jornal de Notícias, paper edition - 26 July 2008
(http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2424244&postcount=357)

From Goncalo Amaral's book:

on page 183 (chapter 19), a "failure" from the FSS is mentioned: the analyses on the hair samples are missing. Stuart Prior contacts the FSS on the PJ's request. The analyses had not been done yet. The PJ does not only want to know whether the hair belongs to M - above everything else, they want to knwo whether they came from a living or a dead person. The FSS is in no condition to reply to the latter; only to the former. English colleagues who are present at the meeting, raise the possibility of sending the hair to a European lab that is able to clarify the issue: hair from a living or a dead person. The FSS is not prepared to let go of the hair samples. They inform the PJ, via Stuart Prior, that a process of comparison of hair colour would establish whether the hair belonged to M. The next step would be to identify the DNA - which never happened.

From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2346954&postcount=306

The existence of Madeleine's hairs in the boot of the car rented by the parents three weeks after the crime, near the substitute tyre, it’s considered as highly probable by the PJ. But the investigation was not able to prove that those traces belonged to the child: the hairs have no root ends, the CM established, and the final report of the laboratory of Birmingham – of the DNA mitochondrial tests - only guarantee that someone of Kate's lineage was inside the boot of the car.

 

[april4sky]

Talking with Pinto da Costa – Forensic Medicine Expert
The professor does not understand the reason why the analyses done by the British laboratory are not conclusive

From Goncalo Amaral's book:

on page 183 (chapter 19), a "failure" from the FSS is mentioned: the analyses on the hair samples are missing. Stuart Prior contacts the FSS on the PJ's request. The analyses had not been done yet. The PJ does not only want to know whether the hair belongs to M - above everything else, they want to knwo whether they came from a living or a dead person. The FSS is in no condition to reply to the latter; only to the former. English colleagues who are present at the meeting, raise the possibility of sending the hair to a European lab that is able to clarify the issue: hair from a living or a dead person. The FSS is not prepared to let go of the hair samples. They inform the PJ, via Stuart Prior, that a process of comparison of hair colour would establish whether the hair belonged to M. The next step would be to identify the DNA - which never happened.

That explains it the claim that the FSS refused to hand over the hair samples came from Goncalo Amaral's book :waitasec:

The disgraced cop who was removed from the investigation and who is also on criminal charges regarding another case.

Is this claim also in the PJ's final report???

As for Pinto da Costa not understanding why the analyses done by the British laboratory were inconclusive......
.....Well if he had been asked to do the tests maybe he would understand. :waitasec:

 

[april4sky]

From the PJ’s report…..

“Is there Maddie’s DNA?”

An English expert said that DNA that is identical to Maddie McCann’s could have been a "HAZARD"…….

....."Not sure what is meant by "HAZARD"…I seriously doubt the Engish expert used this particular word.".......

.....The comparison of the results from a biological residue and the determination that it is effectively DNA from a specific person is very far from being an exact science. Complementing the report from the English lab where the residues that were found by the dogs were sent to, the forensics expert sent the Polícia Judiciária an email where he guaranteed that the conclusion about the traces that had been collected from the car boot was complex. “Is there Maddie’s DNA?” the expert asked, then replying that there was no single answer. This means that, while it is true that 15 of the 19 markers corresponded to the English child (which allows for a high probability), it is also true that the individual components in Madeleine’s profile were not uniquely hers. And he explained: “It is important to underline that 50 percent of Madeleine’s profile is shared by each parent”.

That is where the doubt lies. As the genetic profiles of the relatives could not be separated, it had to be admitted – even if only theoretically or due to “hazard” – that the match was a symbiosis of residues from the mother and the father.

John Lowe, forensics expert, further adds that several questions would always remain unanswered. Namely to know when and how the DNA was deposited, from which type of bodily fluids it came from and whether or not a crime had been committed.

It is further worth mentioning that those residues had been collected from the rental that was rented after Maddie’s disappearance – which makes it impossible for the child to have been riding the vehicle. The report from the English lab says that it is not possible to demonstrate that the collected residues belong to Kate and Gerry, but it then adds that it is not possible to prove the contrary, either.
**********
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/210755.html

And so, for the record, this is where we stand on the supposed evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann.There was never any DNA "proof" that Madeleine's body had been in the couple's hire car - forensics experts have always argued for caution in interpreting sniffer dogs' reactions.
An American court case ruled this kind of evidence inadmissable last year after finding that three supposedly "specialist" dogs were incorrect between 62% and 78% of the time.
*******
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-20662935/

The report by the Policia Judiciaria - Portugal's CID - claimed a cadaver dog detected a "scent of death" in the family's apartment, on clothes belonging to Kate and Madeleine, on her Cuddle Cat toy and on the key fob of the Renault Scenic rented 24 days after she vanished.
Preliminary tests on DNA from the hire car suggested a possible match with Madeleine, but final results could not match to a particular person - or even establish whether it was blood or another type of body fluid.
*****
It should be considered when reading the report that it was written by the PJ!!

While they had to include some “facts,”…..because they might have had to defend these in court!!.....They can and have excluded others, especially about themselves!!
From what I have read of the report they have certainly protected themselves…..as demonstrated here in their report……..

“On the other hand, it should be referred that this investigation moved itself under conditions of exceptional media exposure, with the publication of many “news” of imprecise, inexact or even false contents, which did not help, in the least, the discovery of the truth and created, many times, a climate of unusual commotion and of lack of serenity”.

…..Predictably they failed to take credit for being the ones who leaked the imprecise, inexact and false contents!!!.....Now there’s a surprise!!
While admitting this did not help in the discovery of the truth!!
Geeez…they are certainly on the ball these cops!!!

And abuction is still amongst their theories!!!

 

[colomom]

We have already concluded that the DNA (bodily fluids/blood) could not be absolutely determined to have come from Madeleine. The DNA test only proved that the fluids came from someone of Kate's lineage (that rules out Gerry).

The hair found in the boot with the fluids is a vital clue. I would think that everything should be done to complete testing to determine if the hair came from a deceased person. If it was confirmed, and Kate and the twins are very much alive....well, there is only one conclusion. If the FSS is unable to conduct the test they should send the samples to someone who can.

Quoting the PJ's final report and badmouthing them in the same post is confusing.

Eddie and Keela have never had a single false positive in over 200 cases!

I prefer to base my evaluation of Goncalo Amaral's character on the following:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2381838&postcount=286

A view of the entire picture yields a much different result than looking at each aspect individually.

 

[april4sky]

We have already concluded that the DNA (bodily fluids/blood) could not be absolutely determined to have come from Madeleine. The DNA test only proved that the fluids came from someone of Kate's lineage (that rules out Gerry).

The hair found in the boot with the fluids is a vital clue. I would think that everything should be done to complete testing to determine if the hair came from a deceased person. If it was confirmed, and Kate and the twins are very much alive....well, there is only one conclusion. If the FSS is unable to conduct the test they should send the samples to someone who can.

Quoting the PJ's final report and badmouthing them in the same post is confusing.

Eddie and Keela have never had a single false positive in over 200 cases!

I prefer to base my evaluation of Goncalo Amaral's character on the following:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2381838&postcount=286

A view of the entire picture yields a much different result than looking at each aspect individually.

Don't know why you would be confused Colomom. I did say they had to include some "facts".....

"While they had to include some “facts,”…..because they might have had to defend these in court!!" ....
.....They can and have excluded others, especially about themselves!!
From what I have read of the report they have certainly protected themselves…..as demonstrated here in their report……..

“On the other hand, it should be referred that this investigation moved itself under conditions of exceptional media exposure, with the publication of many “news” of imprecise, inexact or even false contents, which did not help, in the least, the discovery of the truth and created, many times, a climate of unusual commotion and of lack of serenity”.

…..Predictably they failed to take credit for being the ones who leaked the imprecise, inexact and false contents!!! :waitasec:
While admitting this did not help in the discovery of the truth!! :waitasec:

The report also said...
it is not possible to demonstrate that the collected residues belong to Kate and Gerry, but it then adds that it is not possible to prove the contrary, either.

I had read the article regarding Goncalo Amaral brought over from the 3 arguidos.:waitasec:
I wasn't at all impressed, especially when I noticed all quotes from "friends" were named "Anonymous."

As for the dogs there is no evidence that they alerted to Madeleine!!

 

[colomom]

Picture....bigger.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Boy the McCanns are busy people these days. I guess as long as they are suing someone, they don't dwell on the fact that their baby is being molested repeatedly by a paedophile. Planing their talk show circuit tour to slam the PJ is probably much less daunting than thinking about what could be happening to their poor sweet baby girl.

 

[Texana]

So, bottom line: Hair sample is still with FSS. Results of any tests on the hair sample, not released. No official nothing on the hair sample.

 

[april4sky]

Picture....bigger.

Don't forget to include the PJ's leaks that led to the exceptional media exposure, with the publication of many “news” of imprecise, inexact or even false contents, which did not help, in the least, the discovery of the truth and created, many times, a climate of unusual commotion and of lack of serenity”.
******
I bet the PJ chuckled when they included this in their report!!!