Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 23

[april4sky]

And by the way April, just because some of us think the parents are guilty doesn't make us Anti-Mc Canns as I don't think your position in believing they are innocent makes you pro-Mc Cann, unless you personally do and admit it of course.

I have no problem admitting I am pro-McCann SleuthMom.
I believe they have told the truth about Madeleines disappearence.
And I think the smears and lies have been nothing short of wicked on a couple whose child is missing.
And the truth of the lies is in the conclusion of the PJ's report.

 

[Salem]

Sorry Salem but the only similarity is that a child is missing IMO.

And thank God the PJ are not investigating Caylee's disapearance. :clap:

I respectfully disagree April. The similarity is the neglectful behavior of the parents. Yes, some of the facts are different, however the neglectful behavior is the same. In Maddie's case she was left alone to fend for herself and her siblings. In Caylee's case, she was apparently given to some person who existence can not be established. No matter how you look at it, both children were abandoned by their parents.

Salem

 

[colomom]

Neither do I.
And your point? Why would you think this is relevant? So? Point? Relevance? NO DNA evidence to Madeleine!! Which is why abduction is still on the table.
LE thought :waitasec: So it must be true then. So!!..Anyone asked and not knowing could have wondered the same!! NO evidence there wasn't...Abduction is still on the table!! And the PJ failed to secure the crime scene so evidence of an abduction could have been lost!! Inconsistancies are normal. It would be abnormal if they were synchronized!! She has shown emotion IMO. But geez Colomom she smiles. :waitasec:I doubt that Salem would agree with you!! I hope to God they are better that the cops on Madeleines case!! Obviously.

Wow!! I was pointing out similarities, which you said there were none of....

Lately it seems as if everything that is posted becomes an opportunity to defend the McCanns.

Yeah....she smiles....

 

[april4sky]

Wow!! I was pointing out similarities, which you said there were none of....

Lately it seems as if everything that is posted becomes an opportunity to defend the McCanns.

Yeah....she smiles....

Nice One, you got that right.

 

[april4sky]

I respectfully disagree April. The similarity is the neglectful behavior of the parents. Yes, some of the facts are different, however the neglectful behavior is the same. In Maddie's case she was left alone to fend for herself and her siblings. In Caylee's case, she was apparently given to some person who existence can not be established. No matter how you look at it, both children were abandoned by their parents.

Salem

Sorry Salem :blowkiss: but I disagree.
Even though we don't like it, baby listening is legal in Europe. If they had abandoned their children they would have been charged, and rightly so.
And we don't know if Caylee was actually left with anyone.

 

[SleuthMom]

Even though we don't like it, baby listening is legal in Europe. If they had abandoned their children they would have been charged, and rightly so.

Salem clearly mentioned the neglectful attitude of the parents NOT about the legality of baby listening. Come on April, you are also a mom and said in the past you did not think it was right to leave those kids alone. That's neglectful behaviors regardless of the legality aspect.

 

[SleuthMom]

I have no problem admitting I am pro-McCann SleuthMom.

Oh, I see. Interesting.

I am Pro-Madeleine.

 

[SleuthMom]

Yeah....she smiles....

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

IW I thought you had me on ignore. :waitasec:

I don't agree with Salem regarding similarities with the McCanns. The fact they have been cleared supports that. NO evidence!!! And abduction is still one of the PJ's theories!!
Every case is different...though all are equally heartbreaking.

As for little Caylee I fully agree with Salem.

I believe Casey is a compulsive liar and the police have proof of that.
There is no excuse for not reporting her daughter missing, in fact it was the grandmother who finally did that.
And the grandmother saying the car smelt as though a dead body had been inside...is a big clue.
It will be interesting to hear the DNA results.

It's not sounding good but I do hope the smell wasn't from Caylee and that they find that precious little girl safe.

With the new up-grades, I can't figure out how to ignore you, though I doubt I would anyway. It is amusing to see you at work. I will not argue with you, and that was my main point. I was just interested if you trusted the cadaver dogs in Caylee's case, ....a similarity in the 2 cases you said were NOT similar.:waitasec:

 

[daffodil]

With the new up-grades, I can't figure out how to ignore you, though I doubt I would anyway. It is amusing to see you at work. I will not argue with you, and that was my main point. I was just interested if you trusted the cadaver dogs in Caylee's case, ....a similarity in the 2 cases you said were NOT similar.:waitasec:

Perhaps you would like to post out the "amusing" parts of Aprils posts as I havent seen any

 

[daffodil]

I disagree that there is no evidence pointing towards the McCanns. In fact, I think what evidence there is, points directly towards them.

Obviously LE do not agree with you.

 

[Salem]

Sorry Salem :blowkiss: but I disagree.
Even though we don't like it, baby listening is legal in Europe. If they had abandoned their children they would have been charged, and rightly so.
And we don't know if Caylee was actually left with anyone.

I understand what you are saying. Yes, I know that babylistening was legal, but it was not right. Especially after Maddie cried for them the night before. And honestly, April, if you did this to your child, and she cried, and she asked you the next morning, would you really be able to do it again? I'm not saying what the McCanns did was illegal, I am saying it was neglectful and, in my opinion, was an abandonment both physically and emotionally of their child.

True - we don't know what happened to Caylee at all. AND that is neglectful and in my opinion, an abandonment of Caylee both physically and emotionally. That the mother can not find her child and does not know where she is, is horrendeous behavior. The same in the McCann case - that the parents can not find their child and don't know where she is, is horrendous behavior.

In both cases it was neglectful behavior that has resulted in the loss of these two babies. Unexcusable.

Babylistening was/is legal in Europe. Asking someone to care for your child is legal. Leaving a child alone and thereby allowing something bad to happen to her, is, in Europe, legal, apparently. Asking someone to care for your child and then losing all track of the child, in the US, is neglectful behavior punishable by jail time. In my opinion, just based on the stories the two sets of parent's tell - Casey was more responsible than the McCanns. She at least left the child with someone that was supposed to care for her. The McCanns freely admit they left Maddie alone.

Given that Maddie is missing and may never be found, I find it very difficult to get past the behavior that allowed the child to go missing in the first place. Legal or not, what parent would abandon their child after the child told them that she was crying and knew that they were not there AND there was no one else there either, to see to her needs. No matter whether you support the McCanns or not, this is bad parenting (and April from your previous posts, I know you agree with this - I'm just ranting here and not directing this at you personally). Name any child psychologist, psychiatrist, expert or bystander, that would condone this behavior. So far the only folks to condone it are those that say what happened to Maddie should be punishment enough. For me, this doesn't get it. What happened to Maddie? Where is she? Is she in the presence of some sick ? Is she dead? Is she with some mentally ill person? Where is she? We can only ask the McCanns and they are not, in my opinion, forthcoming with what happened to their daughter.

I think that eventually, like the dingo case in Australia, something will happen or new evidence will be discovered that will prove the truth of the matter. Until then, I can only hope that the McCanns are watched closely by their families and others in order to prevent any harm to the twins.

Salem

 

[colomom]

I understand what you are saying. Yes, I know that babylistening was legal, but it was not right. Especially after Maddie cried for them the night before. And honestly, April, if you did this to your child, and she cried, and she asked you the next morning, would you really be able to do it again? I'm not saying what the McCanns did was illegal, I am saying it was neglectful and, in my opinion, was an abandonment both physically and emotionally of their child.

True - we don't know what happened to Caylee at all. AND that is neglectful and in my opinion, an abandonment of Caylee both physically and emotionally. That the mother can not find her child and does not know where she is, is horrendeous behavior. The same in the McCann case - that the parents can not find their child and don't know where she is, is horrendous behavior.

In both cases it was neglectful behavior that has resulted in the loss of these two babies. Unexcusable.

Babylistening was/is legal in Europe. Asking someone to care for your child is legal. Leaving a child alone and thereby allowing something bad to happen to her, is, in Europe, legal, apparently. Asking someone to care for your child and then losing all track of the child, in the US, is neglectful behavior punishable by jail time. In my opinion, just based on the stories the two sets of parent's tell - Casey was more responsible than the McCanns. She at least left the child with someone that was supposed to care for her. The McCanns freely admit they left Maddie alone.

Given that Maddie is missing and may never be found, I find it very difficult to get past the behavior that allowed the child to go missing in the first place. Legal or not, what parent would abandon their child after the child told them that she was crying and knew that they were not there AND there was no one else there either, to see to her needs. No matter whether you support the McCanns or not, this is bad parenting (and April from your previous posts, I know you agree with this - I'm just ranting here and not directing this at you personally). Name any child psychologist, psychiatrist, expert or bystander, that would condone this behavior. So far the only folks to condone it are those that say what happened to Maddie should be punishment enough. For me, this doesn't get it. What happened to Maddie? Where is she? Is she in the presence of some sick ? Is she dead? Is she with some mentally ill person? Where is she? We can only ask the McCanns and they are not, in my opinion, forthcoming with what happened to their daughter.

I think that eventually, like the dingo case in Australia, something will happen or new evidence will be discovered that will prove the truth of the matter. Until then, I can only hope that the McCanns are watched closely by their families and others in order to prevent any harm to the twins.

Salem

Awesome post Salem....

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Perhaps you would like to post out the "amusing" parts of Aprils posts as I havent seen any

I would rather ask you a question, I was reading some of your posts in the JonBenet Ramsey thread and find it interesting that you feel that Patsy Ramsey is guilty even though she has been technically "Cleared" via touch DNA. What is it that makes you feel that Patsy is guilty vs. Kate innocent?

After reading all of Aprils posts I see that she feels JVS is guilty in the Natalee Holloway case, and he has never been formally charged or convicted of her disappearance either. This tell me that it's not a moral issue to defend the McCanns with either of you....if it were, you would defend all who are accused until PROVEN otherwise.

 

[daffodil]

I would rather ask you a question, I was reading some of your posts in the JonBenet Ramsey thread and find it interesting that you feel that Patsy Ramsey is guilty even though she has been technically "Cleared" via touch DNA. What is it that makes you feel that Patsy is guilty vs. Kate innocent?

After reading all of Aprils posts I see that she feels JVS is guilty in the Natalee Holloway case, and he has never been formally charged or convicted of her disappearance either. This tell me that it's not a moral issue to defend the McCanns with either of you....if it were, you would defend all who are accused until PROVEN otherwise.

I dont know who JVS is or anything about Natalie Holloway so I cant comment.I dont think this is the place to go into the ins and outs of the JBR case except to say I believe the evidence points to Patsy Ramsey but not to Kate McCann.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I dont know who JVS is or anything about Natalie Holloway so I cant comment.I dont think this is the place to go into the ins and outs of the JBR case except to say I believe the evidence points to Patsy Ramsey but not to Kate McCann.

Oh, I see. Well this is what you posted:

You know Callan, I started following this case about 6 months in as here in the UK there wasnt obviously as much coverage as in the US and in all the years since I believed an intruder did it BUT over the last 12 months my opinions have changed-partly through reading these forums and partly my own common sense.Whilst I disagree with certain conclusions reached and feel a lot of discussions go on about largely irrelevant points on the whole I cannot disagree with the opinion Patsy did it.What I feel happened is this:

After a long,tiring day JonBenet falls asleep in the car on the way home from the Whites,whether she then walks in or was carried is beside the point I feel as at some point she was awake,she possibly woke when Patsy was changing her clothes.JB is then hungry so Patsy gives her the pineapple and either her or Burke have the tea.JR and BR play with his toys and Patsy puts the pillow at the foot of JBs bed and lets her watch a video whilst Patsy is down the hall packing for the trip.At some point she checks JB,sees she has fallen asleep and wet the bed.Tired,stressed,infuriated she sees red and grabs JB,a tussle ensues causing the curtain tie back to come loose and the hair ties to be knocked over.During the struggle she flings JB round hard and hits her head on the bedpost of the spare bed (take a look at the shape of those and how they curve outwards).JB is unconscious so Patsy lifts her onto the bed,gets John,they get Burke to bed and out of the way.PR and JR go downstairs to the kitchen,Patsy uses the tissues as she is crying.JR goes into CEO mode and they form the plan to pass it as a kidnapping gone bad.All the pertinent equipment is gathered,some perhaps rejected eg the rope,they go upstairs and JR carries JB down the spiral stairs to the cellar getting garland strands in her hair on the way down.They lay her outside the WC and fashion the garrote,strangling her with it and inserting the paintbrush inside her.Patsy writes the RN by which time time has run out and they call 911 and we all know what followed.

I realise of course this is a simplistic version of what probably happened but I would think its a logical version and JMHO.:twocents:

MY POINT is, you believe this is what happened to Jon Benet, and MANY believe that something very similar happened to Madeleine. All you have to go on in your theory is rumors, smears and media. There is NO proof, no arrest, no conviction. So why is it okay for you to personally condemn the parents of a child, but when I do so it's morally unethical?

 

[Salem]

Awesome post Salem....

Thanks colomom. Can you see my frustration growing :crazy:

With this case, Caylee Anthony and little Mya Lyons from Chicago, I just feel so sad for these babies.

:blowkiss:

Salem

 

[Texana]

Texana we have been over Mrs Fenn. And while there may well be inconsistancies between some statemants none of us yet know the truth of those. :waitasec:

And none of what you are claiming comes close to being evidence that the McCanns harmed their child.

And WHY?? do you think abduction is still one of the options...and that according to the PJ!!!

Texana it's nice to know that you are waking up if you are now recognising the PJ's lies...and incompetance.
....It would be refreshing as I have yet to see the anti McCanns do that.

And for a true BIG PICTURE you need to do that.

We have not gone over Mrs. Fenn enough, as we still seem to be a long ways from any kind of conclusion. I can't understand why she would allow that final version to be quoted in the official report if it was in error--given that the McCanns have sued newspapers, don't you think she'd have some fear of being sued as well?

Ditto Kate's notes. They are from her own notebook and verbal responses. There is no argument from the McCann camp on the "checking every thirty minutes."

So again: Someone is wrong. Which one? They can't both be right.

 

[Texana]

I understand what you are saying. Yes, I know that babylistening was legal, but it was not right. Especially after Maddie cried for them the night before. And honestly, April, if you did this to your child, and she cried, and she asked you the next morning, would you really be able to do it again? I'm not saying what the McCanns did was illegal, I am saying it was neglectful and, in my opinion, was an abandonment both physically and emotionally of their child.

True - we don't know what happened to Caylee at all. AND that is neglectful and in my opinion, an abandonment of Caylee both physically and emotionally. That the mother can not find her child and does not know where she is, is horrendeous behavior. The same in the McCann case - that the parents can not find their child and don't know where she is, is horrendous behavior.

In both cases it was neglectful behavior that has resulted in the loss of these two babies. Unexcusable.

Babylistening was/is legal in Europe. Asking someone to care for your child is legal. Leaving a child alone and thereby allowing something bad to happen to her, is, in Europe, legal, apparently. Asking someone to care for your child and then losing all track of the child, in the US, is neglectful behavior punishable by jail time. In my opinion, just based on the stories the two sets of parent's tell - Casey was more responsible than the McCanns. She at least left the child with someone that was supposed to care for her. The McCanns freely admit they left Maddie alone.

Given that Maddie is missing and may never be found, I find it very difficult to get past the behavior that allowed the child to go missing in the first place. Legal or not, what parent would abandon their child after the child told them that she was crying and knew that they were not there AND there was no one else there either, to see to her needs. No matter whether you support the McCanns or not, this is bad parenting (and April from your previous posts, I know you agree with this - I'm just ranting here and not directing this at you personally). Name any child psychologist, psychiatrist, expert or bystander, that would condone this behavior. So far the only folks to condone it are those that say what happened to Maddie should be punishment enough. For me, this doesn't get it. What happened to Maddie? Where is she? Is she in the presence of some sick ? Is she dead? Is she with some mentally ill person? Where is she? We can only ask the McCanns and they are not, in my opinion, forthcoming with what happened to their daughter.

I think that eventually, like the dingo case in Australia, something will happen or new evidence will be discovered that will prove the truth of the matter. Until then, I can only hope that the McCanns are watched closely by their families and others in order to prevent any harm to the twins.

Salem

Well said, Salem.

 

[colomom]

Thanks colomom. Can you see my frustration growing :crazy:

With this case, Caylee Anthony and little Mya Lyons from Chicago, I just feel so sad for these babies.

:blowkiss:

Salem

You and me both my friend. Actually I think you have the patience of a saint...seriously.

Little girls in the world today are so vulnerable. I hold my 8 year old very close indeed.

The cases that have totally changed my attitude were Maddie, of course, Rowan Ford, Mady Bogard, Riley Sawyers and now Caylee Anthony. I just do not understand how those mothers responsible for nurturing and protecting them could have let them down so callously. Blows my mind....

:blowkiss: Salem....thank god for you!